Discussion for Episode 9: Halloween

General discussion about the nineteen episodes of "My So-Called Life". Note: Our episode guide can be found here.
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Natasha (candygirl)
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Discussion for Episode 9: Halloween

Post by Natasha (candygirl) » Mar 10th 2003, 3:21 am

Welcome to our ninth MSCL.com episode discussion!

If you haven't already done so, please read the info about the weekly discussions here.

I highly recommend reading theAngela's World essay that pertains to this episode.

Other threads related to Halloween that may be of interest are:

Princess Patty
halloween
is Angela clueless?
seven conversations
Amber: good or bad mother?
Jordan & Angela
what do you think Tino was really like?
the Clintons
Angela, Rayanne, and Rickie
Patty and Graham suck
why do we love Graham

Some threads about recurring themes:
food
hair as a metaphor
the contradiction that we call Rayanne
the contradiction that we call Jordan
plaid
colors
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Post by Natasha (candygirl) » Mar 10th 2003, 5:17 am

Halloween is one of those episodes (along with So-Called Angels) that MSCL fans either really love or really hate. Some people find the other-worldliness of the ghost story hokey while others like the fantasy element. I'll let you guys continue the neverending debate about the merits of this episode :D

Some observations:

I still laugh whenever I hear Danielle say "Madonna peaked"! Little did Danielle know that Madonna still had years of fame ahead of her, including a Golden Globe for Evita and four Grammys/six MTV awards for "Ray of Light" (which debuted at number one worldwide and number two in the US behind the Titanic soundtrack and included "Frozen" another number one single), another Grammy for "Beautiful Stranger," and another multi-platinum number one album "Music." (Bedtime Stories was released only a few days before Halloween 1994 and went on to be certified double platinum, was nominated for a best pop album Grammy, and contained the single "Take a Bow" which was number one for seven weeks and won the MTV best female video that year)

Patty is getting lax with the kids - Danielle is allowed to stay out until 10pm and Angela is spending the night at Rayanne's on a school night!

Sharon's cat costume - for someone who was sooooo self-conscious about her breasts only a few episodes ago, she now seems pretty comfortable with her physique since she is wearing a unitard to school! She tells Danielle not to "let boys drain all the fun out your life" - what about her relationship with Kyle is draining the fun out of her life? The constant making out? Seriously, I think that she is beginning to see that Kyle might not be everything that she wants. Even though she forgave him for disappearing when she needed him, she hasn't forgotten what happened. Funny that she leaves the chafing dish she was supposed to take home at the Chases' house, ditches Kyle, and goes off trick or treating with Danielle, who apparently ditches her friend Courtney.

Angela seems meaner than usual towards Brian in this episode. First when he mirrors her thoughts about people wearing costumes to school, she insults him. Later when he tries to assist her (offering his hand) when they break into school, she snaps at him to let go of her when in fact she had voluntarily taken his hand first.

Miss Lerner threatens to have Jordan kicked out of school because he has been ditching English, a class where she is the substitute. That doesn't seem realistic to me because my school had very set policies and procedures on getting kicked out. In any case, it doesn't seem right that one teacher could have a student expelled for skipping ONE class repeatedly. Well, unless the student was 18 because then the state is not required to provide an education any longer.

The actual date of the sockhop is still up for debate. Nicky's name is signed in Angela's book with the year 1963 although I suppose we could argue what semester his English class used the book. The sockhop ticket that Angela finds in the sweater pocket says "Class of 1963" which would indicate that the sockhop took place the Halloween of 1962. Sharon says that Nicky died the Halloween right before Kennedy was shot, which would make it Halloween 1963. Angela finds Nicky's picture in the 1963 yearbook, which would indicate the 1962-1963 school year and that would indicate that Nicky died Halloween 1962, but the dates under his picture say 1946-1963 which would indicate he died Halloween 1963. (For anyone who is unfamiliar with the American school system, most school years start late August/early September and end the following June.)

I find it kind of weird that when Angela tells Jordan she has a message for him, he automatically asks, "From Tino?" I guess it's possible that Tino told Rayanne to tell Angela to tell Jordan, but it seems strange that Jordan would think Tino would pass on a message through Angela. Then again, given Jordan's seeming obsession with meeting Tino, it's apropos. Sort of.

Rayanne's personality is becoming more obvious. In this episode, she is drinking again. Her hare-brained scheme starts out as a seance to contact Nicky Driscoll then becomes breaking into the school to write "Nicky Driscoll was here" on the gym floor. She is crossing the line from fun-loving teenager (like asking strangers for change) to risk taking potential felon. Connie says that Nicky is "going nowhere" and she isn't going there with him, but Angela's relationship with Rayanne parallels that statement more than Angela's relationship with Jordan does. In addition, there is a new aspect to the Angela/Rayanne/Jordan triangle. Previously, Rayanne was supportive of Angela pursuing Jordan and encouraged it because it was something to do and it made her feel important to help. In this episode, Angela starts complaining about a REAL problem concerning Jordan - trying to convince him to stay in school - (as opposed to the silly almost made-up stuff she complained about before) and Rayanne blows her off with "Will you forget about Catalano?" because she is more interested in her seance plans. We are now beginning to see Rayanne's truer selfish nature.

Why does Rickie leave? He obviously was uncomfortable with the idea from the beginning, but he did show up. What makes him finally leave? The prospect of being caught by the police? Or does he feel he put in his face time and can now go home?

How does Brian know where the school security system is located?

When Angela wanders off, Rayanne yells, "Meet us at the gym." Is this because Rayanne is still planning to write "Nicky Driscoll was here" on the floor?

Jordan's sense of loyalty is illustrated in his conversation with Rickie - first he complains about having to be there because it's something he can't get out of, but then adds that they still have to find out who egged Tino's car. Even though he doesn't really want to be there, he feels obligated to fulfill his duties to his friends. Despite this, he alludes to the fact that he cannot control their actions when he tells Rickie "You better get out of here - those guys are pretty ripped" implying that they would probably give Rickie a hard time at the very least. Jordan expresses his need to belong when he says, "But you come because you think, you know, maybe something cool will happen. 'Cause what if something did, happen, and you missed it?"

After Brian's failed attempt to turn off the security system, Rayanne insists that they have to look for Angela and Brian replies, "We can't. We looked. Get over it." Given Brian's protective feelings toward Angela, this seems very uncharacteristic. Is this because he is still mad at her due to their conversation when they broke into school? Or is he so disgusted with the whole situation (and the way he blew his chance to prove he was cool) that he is too busy feeling sorry for himself to bother looking for her? Why couldn't they find her? She was in the gym, where Rayanne told her to meet them.

Lots of previous discussion about whether Rayanne's story was true or not, but one thing that stuck out this time around was that she said her dad locked her in the basement (which would be BELOW the first floor) and she slept at the foot of the stairs so she could see the light in the hallway. The foot of the stairs is at the bottom of the staircase, so she wouldn't be able to see the hallway light from there - she would have to be at the TOP of the stairs to see the light.

I do love Rayanne and Brian's conversation about noticing people/being the stuff that people notice - this is the first sign we see that they have the opportunity to have a symbiotic relationship ("Mini Me, you complete me") but sadly they never see the possiblity through to the end.

Nicky and Billy were expelled - does that explain why Nicky didn't show up at the dance to see Connie?

Nicky says he heard that "Elvis was our age when he recorded [Blue Moon]," but Elvis didn't begin recording demos until after he graduated from high school (and his first sessions with RCA were after he turned 21).

Connie says Nicky is a loser, and Nicky tells Angela that "I'm not in her league." Does Angela believe that Jordan is a loser and that she is out of his league, even subconsciously?

One thing I absolutely HATE about this episode is the "special effects" when we see the door slam repeatedly. Ugh. Jsut had to get that out of my system.

I like that Patty tells Danielle, "You better get out of your sister's room" which falls in line with Patty's previous statement that she isn't allowed into Angela's room without a passport. I like that they respect Angela's space and expect Danielle to do the same. Granted this is a very modern middle class sentiment since only a few generations ago, most children had to share rooms with their siblings and it's debatable whether this kind of "stay out of your sister's room" business panders to spoiled children mentality, but on the surface I see it as Patty and Graham respecting Angela's privacy.

I also like how Patty peeks into the doorway at Danielle in that scene - Patty totally has that "just got laid" vibe going on!

Danielle is nice enough to leave some Halloween candy for Angela, but it's pretty crappy candy. Then again, this was probably to avoid product placement :D

Why does Patty lie to Camille about missing the party? Given Camille's statements in the last episode (about the nurse blaming her for Andy's heart attack because of her sexual demands) and her not so innocent query to Patty, "So who's into the pillows - you or Graham?" in the Zit, I'm sure that Camille would be very understanding that Patty and Graham stayed home for some good old-fashioned loving.

Poor Brian - he was so excited about what happened, only to find out that Rayanne said that nothing happened and it was a complete waste of time!

Why did Patty decide not to keep the costumes? Was she really being as practical as her rationalization or was it because they had served their purpose in helping her and Graham to see their respective roles?
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Post by starbug » Mar 10th 2003, 6:50 am

candygirl wrote: Patty is getting lax with the kids - Danielle is allowed to stay out until 10pm and Angela is spending the night at Rayanne's on a school night!
Yeah, I thought this too... but it's a special occasion, and I suppose Patty thought she could make an exception.
candygirl wrote:
Sharon... tells Danielle not to "let boys drain all the fun out your life" - what about her relationship with Kyle is draining the fun out of her life? The constant making out? Seriously, I think that she is beginning to see that Kyle might not be everything that she wants. Even though she forgave him for disappearing when she needed him, she hasn't forgotten what happened.
I think this was one of the scenes that really made me admire Sharon's character, in a way. It's completely true (IMHO) that having a boyfriend when you're in your teens can mean that you start to lose who you are. I think that because it's a first experience with actually seeing someone on a long term basis, it becomes more intense than it needs to be. The problems of establishing boundaries and maintaining independence while having that balance of being with someone because you enjoy their company, are things I suppose younger people find harder to manage. Maybe because they are not yet comfortable with who they are, and that trying to gel that to who someone else is can sometimes result in a loss of independent personality. I think that Sharon finds things she likes 'fun', and that they aren't necessarily the same things Kyle likes. Maybe when she starts seeing him she is doing it just to be with someone, because that's considered 'normal', and not because it's Kyle in particular. I'm sure that, as you say, Kyle's behaviour in the previous episode has a lot to do with it but I can completely understand that while there may not be one aspect which she can point to in order to demonstrate it, Sharon maybe feels like she's losing hold of herself in favour of what Kyle/Society expects her to be or do. Does that make sense? I've met lots of people (and I include myself in this) who have in the past been with people for the sake of being with someone, and not because they've got a particular feeling for the person they are with. I think that once you break out of that, it's a really empowering thing and you can then move on with your life and find the person you really want to be with who enhances your enjoyment. You no longer need someone just to be a social crutch.
candygirl wrote: Connie says that Nicky is "going nowhere" and she isn't going there with him, but Angela's relationship with Rayanne parallels that statement more than Angela's relationship with Jordan does. In addition, there is a new aspect to the Angela/Rayanne/Jordan triangle. Previously, Rayanne was supportive of Angela pursuing Jordan and encouraged it because it was something to do and it made her feel important to help. In this episode, Angela starts complaining about a REAL problem concerning Jordan - trying to convince him to stay in school - (as opposed to the silly almost made-up stuff she complained about before) and Rayanne blows her off with "Will you forget about Catalano?" because she is more interested in her seance plans. We are now beginning to see Rayanne's truer selfish nature.
I agree. I think we are seeing the very immature, selfish side to Rayanne for the reasons you've said. On the other hand, I would defend her in that if I were her, I would be sick of hearing about Jordan too, and I confess I probably would have tuned out alot of what Angela says about him. That probably doesn't make me a very good friend, but it's true. If I were Rayanne, I would be desperate to have just one day, just one outing where Angela doesn't mention Jordan. This is Rayanne's idea, her baby (even if it is a hairbrained scheme) and once again, Angela is making noise about Jordan. I can sort of understand why Rayanne isn't willing to listen on this occasion.
candygirl wrote: Why does Rickie leave? He obviously was uncomfortable with the idea from the beginning, but he did show up. What makes him finally leave? The prospect of being caught by the police? Or does he feel he put in his face time and can now go home?
I thought (although I admit this is probably looking back after having watched the later episodes) that it was probably due to his religion and the strength of his convictions. I have a couple of catholic friends and this sort of 'contact the dead' and dealing with evil/possibly evil force is something that really makes them break out in a cold sweat. Like Rickie, I can say that they are not overt in their religion, but I once watched the Exorcist with one of my catholic friends (a jocular bloke who never really gets scared) and watched him get goosebumps and really freaked out. He literally shook through the whole film. That was always my take on why Rickie left; the reality of what Rayanne was trying to do.
candygirl wrote: Jordan's sense of loyalty is illustrated in his conversation with Rickie - first he complains about having to be there because it's something he can't get out of, but then adds that they still have to find out who egged Tino's car. Even though he doesn't really want to be there, he feels obligated to fulfill his duties to his friends. Despite this, he alludes to the fact that he cannot control their actions when he tells Rickie "You better get out of here - those guys are pretty ripped" implying that they would probably give Rickie a hard time at the very least. Jordan expresses his need to belong when he says, "But you come because you think, you know, maybe something cool will happen. 'Cause what if something did, happen, and you missed it?"
Again I thought this was a wonderful and very true scene. Jordan's friends are arseholes, but Jordan knows it and although he joins in a bit, his heart isn't in it. He's nice to Rickie, and warns him off. I think Jordan does have this need to belong as you say. This scene did make me wonder a little bit though. How many of his friends are only there because they feel the same thing as Jordan but like him are too afraid to break out of it? Often I think that these groups are held together by one or two people who really like doing this sort of stuff (arseholes, as I call them), and everyone else is sort of along for the ride, because they think they're meant to find it fun, or because they're afraid that they'll be uncool if they stay at home. Just a thought...
candygirl wrote: One thing I absolutely HATE about this episode is the "special effects" when we see the door slam repeatedly. Ugh. Jsut had to get that out of my system.
I'm with you on that one.
candygirl wrote: Poor Brian - he was so excited about what happened, only to find out that Rayanne said that nothing happened and it was a complete waste of time!
This is an interesting parallel to the Pilot, where we all agree that nothing really happened, yet Rayanne is keen to expound the fact that they 'had a time'. This time, it was pretty exciting, certainly to Brian, yet for some reason, Rayanne plays it down where previously she has played it up. Why? Did she not want to admit that she was locked in a room with Brian the geek (her opinion) as it would raise all sorts of questions and ultimately make her look uncool?

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Post by TomSpeed » Mar 10th 2003, 10:10 am

candygirl wrote:

The actual date of the sockhop is still up for debate. Nicky's name is signed in Angela's book with the year 1963 although I suppose we could argue what semester his English class used the book. The sockhop ticket that Angela finds in the sweater pocket says "Class of 1963" which would indicate that the sockhop took place the Halloween of 1962. Sharon says that Nicky died the Halloween right before Kennedy was shot, which would make it Halloween 1963. Angela finds Nicky's picture in the 1963 yearbook, which would indicate the 1962-1963 school year and that would indicate that Nicky died Halloween 1962, but the dates under his picture say 1946-1963 which would indicate he died Halloween 1963. (For anyone who is unfamiliar with the American school system, most school years start late August/early September and end the following June.
Thank God someone else noticed this tidbit. I've been pondering the date of the Halloween hop for a long time. It's amazing that the writers let this slip up happen. Not that the date is too important, but anyone familiar with the American school year knows the Class of '63's Halloween hop would be in '62. Of course, I wouldn't make such a writing error. Yea right.
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Graham: And how much of you?
Angela: Dad!
Graham: Oh, I'm sorry! I asked a question about your life, didn't I? Woah, what came over me?
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Post by likelife » Mar 10th 2003, 4:01 pm

Candygirl Wrote:
I still laugh whenever I hear Danielle say "Madonna peaked"! Little did Danielle know that Madonna still had years of fame ahead of her
ha ha! that is a great line. i think it's also a great way of showing danielle growing up; she is starting to have opinions (or at least make statements) about pop culture, which either means that she has taken the time to think about madonna, or she is repeating what she heard someone say. either way, she is trying to be part of the adult world when she makes a statement like that! it reminds me of "we're keeping it loose!" and "it means bisexual!"


Starbug wrote:
Jordan's friends are arseholes, but Jordan knows it and although he joins in a bit, his heart isn't in it. He's nice to Rickie, and warns him off. I think Jordan does have this need to belong as you say.
i agree that jordan feels like he needs to belong, or to go ahead for the ride because of what he might miss out on. i think several important points are made by the writing in this scene...
jordan knows his friends are "arseholes"... that in itself is telling. he's not totally into the average idiot teenager stuff, and yet he does not quite know how to do something different. this will come into play later in "pressure."
also, jordan is perceptive enough to realize that rickie will be harrassed by his friends. in past and future episodes we will see mr. catalano make some embarrassingly bad social choices and oversights. here he seems pretty much right on the ball, and he lets rickie know it without being rude.
furthermore, this is the scene that differentiates jordan from nicky for once and for all. nicky is the instigator. he's a bit melodramatic and actively fulfilling that self-fulfilling prophecy of going nowhere fast. (ah! i did NOT just mean to quote "red"). he really seems to think that a practicaljoke will make him feel better and solve his problems, at least temporarily. jordan is nothing like that. sure, he's making bad choices by skipping class, but he's not about to actively ruin his future and end his life. angela was able to convince jordan to shape up, while no one could help nicky.
Connie says that Nicky is "going nowhere" and she isn't going there with him, but Angela's relationship with Rayanne parallels that statement more than Angela's relationship with Jordan does. In addition, there is a new aspect to the Angela/Rayanne/Jordan triangle.
i agree. rayanne is the one making trouble and making all of the bad decisions in this episode.... true, jordan is somewhat of the lost soul who needs a little guidance, but like i said in my above post, he makes the right decision in the end.
rayanne on th eother hand is beginning to go off the deep end. she is drinking a lot and not really making much sense with her seance plans. what exactly does she want to accomplish? it seems like she wants to become a legend, but has she really thought ofthe consequences? i think she ends up saying that nothing happened because she so embarrassed that they didn't do anything eart shattering. she is really looking for shock value in a statement. if she can't find it, she does not want to make that statement.

i think that rayanne enjoyed being part of the angela/jordan dynamic because she felt like she was in control. most of the talk was hypothetical..."what if jordan says this?" "what if jordan does that?" these are things that rayanne felt qualified to answer. she could make angela feel as though she (rayanne) was passing along pearls of wisdom about love and sex. however, angela now knows jordan better than rayanne knows him.. angela knows more ABOUT jordan that rayanne knows. angela also has a personal connection (albeit strange and undefined) to jordan. rayanne can no longer speak from a position of authority and i think that not only shuts her up, but makes her resent the conversation topic because it's not hers anymore.

candygirl wrote:
Why does Patty lie to Camille about missing the party? Given Camille's statements in the last episode (about the nurse blaming her for Andy's heart attack because of her sexual demands) and her not so innocent query to Patty, "So who's into the pillows - you or Graham?" in the Zit, I'm sure that Camille would be very understanding that Patty and Graham stayed home for some good old-fashioned loving.
i do not think that patty and camille have the sort of relationship in which they BOTH tell each other everything. i think camille does a lot more of the talking. i also think that patty seems like the type who is very private about sex and sexuality. she seems like a pretty liberated woman but then she cringes when someone mentions sex or something sexual unless she is totally at ease. she probably does not bring up her sex life unless there is a problem and she needs camille's advice.
also, there are some moments that you only want to share with the other person.... i think this may happen more as we get older. there was a time when i'd call my best friend and dissect every make-out session i'd just had with my boyfriend. i don;t quite do that anymore. camille might, but i'd argue that she's not necessarily the norm

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Post by TomSpeed » Mar 10th 2003, 10:57 pm

likelife wrote:candygirl wrote:
Why does Patty lie to Camille about missing the party? Given Camille's statements in the last episode (about the nurse blaming her for Andy's heart attack because of her sexual demands) and her not so innocent query to Patty, "So who's into the pillows - you or Graham?" in the Zit, I'm sure that Camille would be very understanding that Patty and Graham stayed home for some good old-fashioned loving.
i do not think that patty and camille have the sort of relationship in which they BOTH tell each other everything. i think camille does a lot more of the talking. i also think that patty seems like the type who is very private about sex and sexuality. she seems like a pretty liberated woman but then she cringes when someone mentions sex or something sexual unless she is totally at ease. she probably does not bring up her sex life unless there is a problem and she needs camille's advice.
also, there are some moments that you only want to share with the other person.... i think this may happen more as we get older. there was a time when i'd call my best friend and dissect every make-out session i'd just had with my boyfriend. i don;t quite do that anymore. camille might, but i'd argue that she's not necessarily the norm
I agree that Patty gets embarrassed when she talks about having sex. I can't see her saying, "We couldn't make it to the party because Graham and I had the hottest sex of our lives." She's just too proper. The good thing is that they have a hot, yet private, sex life. That's what is important.

I still need to get my ducks in a row to discuss this episode. I've been busy recently with my fan fiction piece. However, I can say that although "Halloween" isn't my favorite episode, I still enjoy it. I like it because it is different. People die young in high school. We had a few kids die in junior and senior high. It's always tragic. You don't expect young people to die. I like the idea of dressing up for halloween. I haven't worn a costume since I was in junior high. Patty and Graham dressing up in costumes and getting hot for each other is hilarious. It's also exciting. Seeing them makes me want to run out and buy some costumes. You know, just in case I meet someone I'll be prepared. Not that I would try doing that on the first date. But if you are married for a long time, knock yourself out. One of the most erotic scenes I've read comes from Pat Conroy's Beach Music. The hero, Jack McCall, is in Venice. He is wearing a costume. He meets a woman who is also wearing a contume. He has lost his wife. He turns to the woman for anonymous sex. That is a very hot scene. Dressing in costumes allows Patty and Graham to be other people. This idea was touched on in "Dancing in the Dark." Patty says that Graham wants to dance with other woman. Keeping things fresh is something that is important to a marraige. I don't think I would be into swinging, but pretending to be other people once in awhile wouldn't hurt.

The scene when Danielle walks into the kitchen dressed as Angela is classic. The looks on Patty and Graham's faces are priceless. They really think they are going to go through everything that happened with Angela all over again with Danielle.

It's touching that Danielle wants to dress like Angela. Despite all of the fighting and teasing, Angela and Danielle do love one another.
candygirl wrote:How does Brian know where the school security system is located?
Brian is a curious young man. He's been down in the basement of the school. He's probably poked around a bit. Plus, geeks just tend to know where the cool stuff in a school are located. They are fascinated by gadgets and such things. Granted, he hasn't had enough time to master all of the controls on the security system. But given time, he probably would be able to control the school's electronics at whim. He'll teach himself how to use the security system because it is a challenge.

I like Rayanne line about Brian knowing "some clever chess club way" to get into the school. When people need to know how to do something challenging, they turn to Brian.
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Patty: If Rayanne's not seeing you, and we're not seeing you, who is seeing you?
Graham: And how much of you?
Angela: Dad!
Graham: Oh, I'm sorry! I asked a question about your life, didn't I? Woah, what came over me?
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Post by TomSpeed » Mar 10th 2003, 11:18 pm

The scene when Danielle walks into the kitchen dressed as Angela is classic. The looks on Patty and Graham's faces are priceless. They really think they are going to go through everything that happened with Angela all over again with Danielle.

It's touching that Danielle wants to dress like Angela. Despite all of the fighting and teasing, Angela and Danielle do love one another.
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Patty: If Rayanne's not seeing you, and we're not seeing you, who is seeing you?
Graham: And how much of you?
Angela: Dad!
Graham: Oh, I'm sorry! I asked a question about your life, didn't I? Woah, what came over me?
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Post by SanDeE* » Mar 11th 2003, 2:33 am

TomSpeed wrote:
candygirl wrote:How does Brian know where the school security system is located?
Brian is a curious young man. He's been down in the basement of the school.
In the boiler room by the North exit? :wink: ....hmm, maybe not.
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Post by Nostradamus » Mar 11th 2003, 4:05 am

It is perhaps fitting that I play "Devil's Advocate" for the Halloween episode :wink: , so here is my perspective on Rayanne's behavior...

I don't think that Rayanne's religion, if any, is ever firmly established in the series, but based on what we learn in the next episode it seems safe to assume that she grew up with her mother's New Age (probably Wiccan, which is actually a very old religion) beliefs. Now, obviously she isn't exactly what one would call a "true believer" but even so this background has given her (and Rickie) a somewhat greater appreciation of Halloween (or Samhain) than someone like Angela. So her plans regarding the shade of Nicky Driscoll may have a bit more significance for her than just getting attention. After all, she couldn't exactly brag openly about breaking into the school, at least not right away.

As a side note, I agree with starbug that Rickie was in part motivated to bail early by a genuine fear of supernatural unpleasantness. I wouldn't be to quick to follow the lead of an intoxicated novitiate attempting to commune with the spirit of a tragically killed youth on the night of the year's greatest levels of mystic energy! Even if Nickie himself was a nice guy, you never know what other things might be drawn out by such a ritual. :shock:

Anyway, getting back to my original point, I also think that Rayanne may not have seen Jordan's situation as being as serious as Angela interpreted it. Angela believes the old "stay in school" messages which scare young people with the tales of woe that await those who do not get their HS diplomas. She has no first-hand experience to contradict this. Rayanne moves in different circles and likely knows a few adults who took that path and turned out OK. Of course we do not know how Jordan ends up, or even if he does finish HS (stupid network! :x ) but there is the possibility that he would have been successful without a conventional education. From Rayanne's perspective, then, Angela may have been making a mountain out of a molehill.

Finally, Angela's motivations are not entirely unselfish either; she no doubt wants Jordan to stay in school so she can continue to see him.
I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure.
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I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it.
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Post by TomSpeed » Mar 11th 2003, 10:44 am

Kristin wrote:
TomSpeed wrote:
candygirl wrote:How does Brian know where the school security system is located?
Brian is a curious young man. He's been down in the basement of the school.
In the boiler room by the North exit? :wink: ....hmm, maybe not.
Brian couldn't handle the boiler room.

Heck, I couldn't handle the boilder room either. I'm trying to remember the make out spots at my high school. I can't think of any. I guess it's obvious that I made out at school all of the time. :wink:
Nostradamus wrote:It is perhaps fitting that I play "Devil's Advocate" for the Halloween episode :wink: , so here is my perspective on Rayanne's behavior...

I don't think that Rayanne's religion, if any, is ever firmly established in the series, but based on what we learn in the next episode it seems safe to assume that she grew up with her mother's New Age (probably Wiccan, which is actually a very old religion) beliefs. Now, obviously she isn't exactly what one would call a "true believer" but even so this background has given her (and Rickie) a somewhat greater appreciation of Halloween (or Samhain) than someone like Angela. So her plans regarding the shade of Nicky Driscoll may have a bit more significance for her than just getting attention. After all, she couldn't exactly brag openly about breaking into the school, at least not right away.

As a side note, I agree with starbug that Rickie was in part motivated to bail early by a genuine fear of supernatural unpleasantness. I wouldn't be to quick to follow the lead of an intoxicated novitiate attempting to commune with the spirit of a tragically killed youth on the night of the year's greatest levels of mystic energy! Even if Nickie himself was a nice guy, you never know what other things might be drawn out by such a ritual. :shock:

Anyway, getting back to my original point, I also think that Rayanne may not have seen Jordan's situation as being as serious as Angela interpreted it. Angela believes the old "stay in school" messages which scare young people with the tales of woe that await those who do not get their HS diplomas. She has no first-hand experience to contradict this. Rayanne moves in different circles and likely knows a few adults who took that path and turned out OK. Of course we do not know how Jordan ends up, or even if he does finish HS (stupid network! :x ) but there is the possibility that he would have been successful without a conventional education. From Rayanne's perspective, then, Angela may have been making a mountain out of a molehill.

Finally, Angela's motivations are not entirely unselfish either; she no doubt wants Jordan to stay in school so she can continue to see him.
Great post! "Dancing in the Dark" has this sequence: Angela to Rayanne, "Were you born in a Satanic cult?" Rickie to Angela, "She wishes." When I think of Rayanne, I think of Stevie Nicks in her Welsh witch glory. Rayanne and Rhiannon sound alike. Coincidence or not?
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Patty: If Rayanne's not seeing you, and we're not seeing you, who is seeing you?
Graham: And how much of you?
Angela: Dad!
Graham: Oh, I'm sorry! I asked a question about your life, didn't I? Woah, what came over me?
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shorty

Post by shorty » Mar 11th 2003, 11:01 am

I always thought Dannielle's line, "Maddonna peaked" was in reference to the peaked bra's that Maddonna used to wear in the '80's, cos the line also ties in with her last statement, "Sherri Hickey's gonna be catwoman and she's like, developed." And I also thought that was why Graham looked so suprised after she said that line. :o

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Post by starbug » Mar 11th 2003, 11:45 am

Oh, I never made this connection. I've thought about it and I don't think that's what she meant though... If Danielle's like, 11 or 12, and it's 1994, then she would have been born in 1982 or so. If Madonna was wearing her peaked bra in say, 1988 (maybe someone else has more patience than me and wants to check it out) then Danielle would have been 6-sh at the time. I think that's too young to be aware of Madonna's costumes etc. Maybe I'm wrong...

I always thought she was deriding graham for his lack of knowledge of popular culture, and saying that Madonna's time was over. Like Candygirl said... little did she know. :wink:

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Post by TomSpeed » Mar 11th 2003, 12:17 pm

I think many people thought Madonna would peak and decline back in the day. Her gift was that she was able to reinvent herself over and over again. Just when you think she is obsolete, she comes back. I can remember my friends saying that Madonna wouldn't last when Like a Virgin was released. Boy, they were wrong.
candygirl wrote:Sharon's cat costume - for someone who was sooooo self-conscious about her breasts only a few episodes ago, she now seems pretty comfortable with her physique since she is wearing a unitard to school! She tells Danielle not to "let boys drain all the fun out your life" - what about her relationship with Kyle is draining the fun out of her life? The constant making out? Seriously, I think that she is beginning to see that Kyle might not be everything that she wants. Even though she forgave him for disappearing when she needed him, she hasn't forgotten what happened. Funny that she leaves the chafing dish she was supposed to take home at the Chases' house, ditches Kyle, and goes off trick or treating with Danielle, who apparently ditches her friend Courtney.
It seems really inconsistent for Sharon to wear her rat, excuse me, cat costume. She looks way too hot. Maybe she is comfortable with her body now, but I don't think a change like that one can happen so fast. Plus, the boys hardly seem to notice her walking around. One does grab her tail though.
TomSpeed

Patty: If Rayanne's not seeing you, and we're not seeing you, who is seeing you?
Graham: And how much of you?
Angela: Dad!
Graham: Oh, I'm sorry! I asked a question about your life, didn't I? Woah, what came over me?
http://www.last.fm/user/TomSpeed/

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Post by likelife » Mar 11th 2003, 3:45 pm

about sharon's costume -
i agree that it can seem a little contradictory to be self-conscious of your body one minute and flaunt it the next (though for some reason, i'd argue that that is what we as women are expected to do.... i.e. be ashamed and proud of our bodies simultaneously), but i think several factors play into the way that sharon presents herself....

first of all, i get the impression that sharon is actually pretty comfortable with herself. she does not think she is ugly, she is not ashamed of her body, and except for "the zit", her clothes tend to be form-fitted. she seemed to be upset by the poll because people were paying TOO MUCH attention to a part of her that she could not change. i do not think that the poll sent her into a period of self-loathing so much as it annoyed her and made her worry about kyle's intentions. in general sharon seems to have a healthy attitude about her body and sex.
it was her self-consciousness, not her self-esteem that was triggered by the poll. once she got ahold of her feelings on the matter, she probably wasn't that bothered by her body or how people saw it.
sharon sees school spirit and "putting your best foot forward" as very important. wearing a costume to school may have overshadowed any worries of just how revealing it might be. i think this episode shows a really strong part of sharon's character, especially when she ditches kyle to hang out with danielle, and when she confronts danielle with the fact that wanting to be like angela is far from hating her!

--- i, for one, have always been uncomfortable with the size of my chest. i did not need a poll aat school to make me self-conscious. i wish that i could be as confidant as sharon usually seems.

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Post by TomSpeed » Mar 11th 2003, 5:20 pm

Sharon does seem more secure about herself than Angela. However, like Angela and most teens, she still feels peer evaluation/criticism. Sharon reflects Camille. Angela reflects Patty. Even though Patty is kind of uptight, she does have a past -- the roommate who died of a drug overdose, Tony Poole, etc. It would be hard for Patty to do, but she could try to talk about these experiences with Angela before a crisis occurs.
candygirl wrote:Miss Lerner threatens to have Jordan kicked out of school because he has been ditching English, a class where she is the substitute. That doesn't seem realistic to me because my school had very set policies and procedures on getting kicked out. In any case, it doesn't seem right that one teacher could have a student expelled for skipping ONE class repeatedly. Well, unless the student was 18 because then the state is not required to provide an education any longer.
There is a big difference between Vic and Miss Lerner. She is a tenured teacher at Liberty. Her input would count for a great deal. Mr. Foster would make the actual call. Most, if not all, schools and/or school districts have a Student Code of Conduct (SCOC). One of the first things written in each SCOC is that students are expected to attend classes. The penalties for not attending classes are explained to the letter. One of the penalties usually is expulsion. Also, principals are usually given discretionary authority over enforcing the SCOC. Principals are subject to school board review. There might be other penalties, including removing a student to an alternative education site, i.e., a school for bad kids. As a last resort, students can be expelled entirely from school. Finally, although states require minors to attend school, most states, including FL when I was in high school, allow students to drop out of school at age 16. So, when Miss Lerner says Jordan might get expelled from school, she's probably right.

Side note -- I don't think she should have said what she did in front of all of the students in class. More discretion is advised in situations that deal with one student. She would have been better off asking a student who knows Jordan well to talk to her privately at her desk between classes.
candygirl wrote: Patty is getting lax with the kids - Danielle is allowed to stay out until 10pm and Angela is spending the night at Rayanne's on a school night!
I agree with the others about this laxness being due to the fact that it's Halloween. Plus, Graham and Patty supposedly are going to Camille's party. Their plan is to get the kids out of the house. Plus, Patty has only met Amber once. She hasn't been to her home yet. 10 PM sounds like a reasonable curfew time on Halloween for a girl Danielle's age.

I like the idea of holiday themed episodes like "Halloween," "So-Called Angels," and "Resolutions." Holidays seem to have much more meaning to young people than adults, particularly a holiday like Halloween. I can't remember the last time I dressed up for Halloween. I bought a lot of candy one year to give to kids, only about 4 came to my door. However, I remember how important Halloween used to be to me. I did the whole bit: trick or treating, Halloween parties, going to haunted houses, etc. I thoroughly enjoyed Halloween. I was especially excited by dressing up as someone else. I think we lose touch of the magic we felt as children when we grow up. Also, I think that's why people have a love-hate relationship with these episodes.

Side note -- I dressed like one of my sister's for Halloween one year. We went trick-or-treating. We had a great time. I think I was a little prettier though. Anyway, I can relate to Danielle dressing like Angela.
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Patty: If Rayanne's not seeing you, and we're not seeing you, who is seeing you?
Graham: And how much of you?
Angela: Dad!
Graham: Oh, I'm sorry! I asked a question about your life, didn't I? Woah, what came over me?
http://www.last.fm/user/TomSpeed/

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