Discussion for Episode 2: Dancing in the Dark

General discussion about the nineteen episodes of "My So-Called Life". Note: Our episode guide can be found here.
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Discussion for Episode 2: Dancing in the Dark

Post by Natasha (candygirl) » Jan 20th 2003, 1:56 am

Welcome to our second MSCL.com episode discussion!

If you haven't already done so, please read the info about the weekly discussions here.

I highly recommend reading theAngela's World essay that pertains to this episode.

Other threads related to Dancing in the Dark that may be of interest are:
"she did it to get a reaction..."
the Clintons
Princess Patty
product placement in MSCL?
seven conversations
Patty and Graham suck!

Some threads about recurring themes:
hair as a metaphor
food
Angela, Rayanne, and Rickie
plaid
colors
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Post by Natasha (candygirl) » Jan 20th 2003, 2:32 am

Some questions I had after watching this episode:

Angela vacillates between having been kissed three or four times, then settles on three. What could the fourth possibility have been? I would like to add that CPR doesn't really count as a kiss :wink:

When Patty and Graham discuss this good-bye kiss, I wondered why Graham gets to work 40 minutes after Patty does? Does she like to get in early so that she can see when the rest of her employees arrive? Does she like to get work done before there aer a ton of people there to distract her? Does Graham have flex time?

In bio, why does Miss Chavatal ask if some people are working together yet assume that other people did their projects independently? She does ask Brian if he worked on his project with Angela, and she also asks Michael if he and Sonya worked together, but she wrote down the names of most of the other students without bothering to ask. In addition, Brian is the only student who she questions about the nature of his project. Is this because he is the smartest one in the class?

WTF is Sharon wearing in bio? It looks like a lab coat (sort of), but none of the other students are wearing lab coats. At the end of the scene, we see two blonde students (one male, one female) wearing lab coats and goggles (I assume they are TAs), but no one else (besides Miss Chavatal) are seen wearing lab coats in class.

In kitchen hygiene, someone pointed out that Angela picks up her backpack while still wearing her bloody gloves - ewwww! Doesn't she care about getting pig blood all over herself?

At Angela's house, what is Rayanne eating with a spoon? Small white container with red writing? As they are walking upstairs, I love the juxtaposition of Rayanne with a celery stick in one hand and a liter of soda in the other hand! :D

Patty brings up ballroom dancing in front of Neil and the kids at dinner. Why? That seems like should be a private conversation - even before I saw Angela and Neil's reactions, I assumed that there would be some mocking involved. Did Patty bring this up in front of everyone on purpose in the hopes that they would shoot it down? Why don't Patty and Graham ever go back to the class after their introductory lesson?

What is in the green tube attached to the volumeter? I don't know anything about volumeters (except that there's a mouse involved and it measures pressure), but what could possibly be in that tube?

Re: Rayanne and Rickie telling Jordan that Tino had a message for him - Rayanne and Rickie seem to agree with Jordan a little too quickly when he offers up, "About Frozen Embryos?" They practically trip over each other saying, "Yeah, I think that was it." Do you think that Tino really told Rayanne and Rickie to have Jordan wait for him in front of Brian's house? If so, why did Jordan take off?

What does the magnet on Brian's refrigerator say?

When Jordan kisses Angela, there is a shot of her skirt opening, showing her knees. After he kisses her, there is a shot of her covering her knees with her skirt. Is this foreshadowing of their relationship? Maybe in the way that Malcolm in Jurassic Park says that one day is representative of a lifetime?

Jordan says that this day has been "one long thing that makes no sense." What do you think he means by that? Is he talking about normal high school stuff? Does he mean that he spent most of the day in a haze and every time he started to pay attention he was lost? Is he talking about the conversation he had with Tino about Frozen Embryos? Is he referring to his home life?

Jordan asks Brian if Angela is really from France - why does Jordan doubt Rayanne? And why does he believe that Brian is the one who will tell him the truth? Why didn't he (Jordan) ask Angela if she was from France?

How does Patty manage to break her Cinderella into THAT many pieces by throwing it onto the carpet? I used to drop glass stuff of my floor (not on purpose - I'm a klutz) and none of them ever broke! Add to the carpeting the fact that they are on the second floor (meaning there isn't cement under that carpeting) and it seems unlikely that it would have broken into that many pieces so easily. I could believe it perhaps breaking in half, but it was in a lot of pieces.

On to a more substantial question about the Cinderella - does breaking it (something that her dad gave he when she was only 11 years old)symbolize letting go of youthful illusions and accepting reality/the adult relationship she has with Graham? The parallel to this is Angela's conversation about whether she would prefer the fantasy of Jordan to the reality.
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Post by Natasha (candygirl) » Jan 20th 2003, 3:10 am

Other observations...

When Angela begins recounting the story of being kissed by the camp counselor, her hair is blonde but then you can see that her hair is back to its red color before the scene segues back to the classroom. I would like to add that this episode has some amazing art direction or cinemetography or whatever the heck you call it - the transitions are seamless. Another great example - watching the scene between Patty and Camille through the upstairs posts which turn into the white picket fence outside where Brian is roller blading. Or later when Graham is the main focus but Neil's face is shown in the mirror.

Brian is so busy looking at Angela in bio (with such an obvious look of love) that he doesn't bother to be his usual "league of nations" answer every question self. The bio scene reminds me of Ferris Bueller: "An experiment must test a what? A hypothesis. And a hypothesis consists of several...anybody? Several assumptions. And true experimentation depends upon...guys? Precision, observation, and clear concise communication." :D
(In 1930, the Republican-controlled House of Representatives, in an effort to alleviate the effects of the... Anyone? Anyone? ...the Great Depression, passed the... Anyone? Anyone? The tariff bill? The Hawley-Smoot Tariff Act? Which, anyone? Raised or lowered? ...raised tariffs, in an effort to collect more revenue for the federal government. Did it work? Anyone? Anyone know the effects? It did not work, and the United States sank deeper into the Great Depression. Today we have a similar debate over this. Anyone know what this is? Class? Anyone? Anyone? Anyone seen this before? The Laffer Curve. Anyone know what this says? It says that at this point on the revenue curve, you will get exactly the same amount of revenue as at this point. This is very controversial. Does anyone know what Vice President Bush called this in 1980? Anyone? Something-d-o-o economics. "Voodoo" economics.)
Rayanne is a terrible liar - her explanation ("She's uhhhh French! She's from France!") is almost as bad as Angela's lie in the pilot ("Like, this rehearsal?").

I love seeing Brian walking down the hallway with his camera hanging around his neck. No shame in his dorkdom!

When Brian tells Sharon that Angela is coming over to help him "compile data," methink the boy doth protest too much. Do you think he already knows deep inside that she will not fulfill his fantasy of her becoming Marie Curie in his kitchen? When he later says, "I knew you wouldn't be much help," is it because he DID know all along that he would do all the work, or because he is disappointed that Angela, for reasons unbeknownst to him, invited Rickie and Rayanne to his house?

I love the way Sharon says, "Right. I was wrong Krakow. Just keep telling yourself that." It reminds me of Spike on Buffy as the Voice of Reason.

Why does Patty get so defensive when Graham brings up Hillary Clinton in conjunction with her haircut? I like the few lines where Patty asks Angela, "So, wait, um, seriously, should I? Cut my hair. I mean, pretend I'm not your mom." This is Patty's first attempt at treating Angela as an equal rather than as a child. Unfortunately, Angela is not mature enough to have that kind of relationship yet, as evidenced by her response, "Moooooom, I can't pretend that!"

Neil's assessment that "you and Patty are the happiest couple I know" really causes Graham to reconsider his relationship with Patty. He, too, is in the process of letting go of the fantasy idea of their relationship and accepting the reality of their lives together. This is why he ultimately decides he can't go through with seeing the Tie-Grabber. He realizes that he and Patty understand each other and are comfortable with each other, and despite their spats they are very good companions to one another. Sometimes when they are angry, they jump to conclusions or yell at each other ("You don't know what I'm thinking!" "Oh shut up!") but they do know each other well enough to finish each other's sentences ("I mean when we danced close, there were no..." "Right, no steps or anything.").

Going with the continuing theme of food, there is a lot of food visible in the Chase house (besides the food served at dinner and the pasta that Graham reheats for Angela). During the scene where Neil and Graham discuss the Tie Grabber, you can see a bowl of fruit (bananas, golden apples, oranges, kiwis) on the dining room table and a bowl of vegetables (garlic, red pepper, red onion) on the counter behind Graham. When Angela and Graham sit down at the dining room table a little while later, the fruit bowl has changed - there is a bright red apple on top of the pile.

There are also a lot of plants in the Chase house - in the kitchen, the dining room, on a little table, on the landing, roses in the bedroom. Do the plants signify healthy growth? Or does this go back to the classic Playboy sex meaning (in surveys where men are asked to describe a room where they would like to have sex, the most common themes are green and blue, indicating a simulation of the outdoors - whether you buy this stuff or not, ehhhh...)?

Brian's assessment of Angela's fake ID: "According to this, she was born yesterday." Possible foreshadowing of Angela's relationship with Jordan? Another way of saying she is innocent and trusting? Or is this Brian's assessment of Angela's personality?

Speaking of foreshadowing: Rayanne's hair at Brian's house is straight, adorned only by a simple cloth headband with her blonde streak dangling in the front. This is the same way she wears her hair in Betrayal. Interesting that in this episode she tells Angela that she "totally and completely disagrees" that fantasy is preferable to reality?

While we're on the subject of hair - compare Angela's reaction to Patty's hair in this episode with Patty's reaction to Angela's hair in the pilot.

:D
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Re: Discussion for Episode 2: Dancing in the Dark

Post by NIGHTJESSI » Jan 20th 2003, 4:19 am

Candygirl, thanx for getting everything rolling once again. There's much to digest here already.

It was really cracking me up that Angela's perceived best kiss was the one that was most unlike a real kiss. Then again, given the fact that she had never had a boyfriend, an experience like the one with the lifeguard has to count. I suppose we could speculate that the fourth time could have been something when she was really young, even possibly Brian Krakow and her goofing around as little kids. That would be something that she wouldn't want to remember because she's not into him and doesn't think of him like that. What do you think?

As for why Patty and Graham don't arrive at work at the same time, I definitely think it has to do with their roles in the business. She's the boss and thus comes in early and stays late. Meanwhile, Graham is selling printing and assisting Patty. Perhaps his job typically entails heading out into the field as opposed to being in the office at the beginning of the work day. In any case, the fact that they haven't been kissing each other before going into work definitely says something about the state of their marriage. The fire has waned a little, but when Graham wants to concentrate, he can sure lay one on Patty!

When it comes to Miss Chavatal's questions on extra credit, maybe she was used to the people who raised their hands turning in other extra credit projects either solo or with partners. Perhaps Michael and Sonya hadn't teamed together before but were sitting near each other so she just wanted to confirm. And when it came to Brian and Angela, Angela had left the room so that could be why she asked. Another possibility is that the students who raised their hands had previously discussed briefly with Miss Chavatal what they were going to work on, and now she was just checking on who was going to follow through with their projects.

I, too, found it amusing that Brian has lost himself in Angela. And I love how he later confronts her by saying, "Thanx for leaving me a whole heart to clean up." You have to love the double meanings behind many of the quotes in this show. And this was on the heels of the bio scene opening with "Before we cut out hearts open ... " Classic!

As for Angela ditching bio while still wearing her bloody gloves, she didn't care because Rayanne and Rickie obviously had something so good to tell her that they came to get her out of class. She's obsessed with Jordan Catalano so she's not concerned about things like staining her clothes. After all, Patty will get all those stains out just as she does with all the Chase family laundry.

When it comes to Brian telling Sharon that Angela is coming over, I think he is trying to convince himself that Angela won't let him down. He'd like to think that his former childhood buddy would enjoy coming over to his house and helping with the experiment, and telling her she has to come because of the extra credit was his way of keeping close to her. But deep down, he knows it's a false connection and that's why he says that biting remark later. He's mad that Angela proved him right but he's also mad at himself that he actually thought Angela would be interested in spending time with him, school-related or not.

My theory on why Patty brought up ballroom dancing at dinner is because she wanted to pressure Graham into going. She wanted to draw attention to the fact that they were going to do something different. She had already mapped out that Neil would babysit, and maybe she wanted to in her own weird way see what the reaction from everyone was going to be, even though she probably already knew how everyone would react. As for returning to the class, they really did have a tough time with it and perhaps they found their own ways of improving their dancing without having to pay for it. After all, the first lesson is free while follow-up lessons would have cost money that could have gone to other more pressing things in the Chase household.

I definitely do not think that Tino gave Rayanne and Rickie any message for Jordan based on how they are in telling Jordan. It was simply a ploy to keep Jordan there longer. If Jordan thought Tino was coming, then he wouldn't feel a need to just get Angela's money and run. I think the only reason he took off was because he was embarrassed about what happened with Angela. He probably had never been shot down before and didn't know how to react. He doesn't really care about talking to Tino because when he returns, you can tell he's looking for Angela and only mentions Tino to cover when Brian is there instead. As for asking Brian about Angela being from France, I think Jordan was just searching for some way to make conversation. I think he knows Angela is not from France but doesn't know what else to say and runs with this. If he really thought she was from France, then he would have said something to her in the car, especially when she was talking about the ID.

Patty breaking her Cinderella definitely signified to me the exclamation point on an already changing Patty. She had cut her hair and shed a bit of her old ways. Given the fact that the Cinderella came up earlier with Camille and discussing their old lives, I do think Patty was frustrated with where her life was at and wanted to start anew. Given the fact that Graham and she made up after this incident, she certainly did make a step in the right direction.

And I think Patty became so defensive about Graham mentioning Hillary Clinton because she didn't like Hillary's new haircut and realized what that one act did for Hillary's popularity levels. She wants to be different, but she wants to do it in a safe way. She's unsure of what will look best on her and is troubled by self-esteem, not to mention that everyone is telling her not to cut her hair.

One of the things that really struck me about this episode is how Jordan and Angela both seem to want the same thing in the car, but they both go about it the wrong way. He's way too aggressive, probably because he doesn't know how to be a man as Graham mentions later, while Angela is way too shy. There is an age gap there, but Angela and Jordan actually seem to be on equal maturity footing here. In any case, it really does bum me out when Angela mentions it's the perfect moment for him to kiss her and Jordan just leans over and lets her out of the car. And it bums me out even more when she finally gets up from the front of Brian's house and goes in, just as Jordan is about to pull up and probably talk to her.
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Post by Natasha (candygirl) » Jan 20th 2003, 4:41 am

I also love the parallel when Angela tells Rayanne and Rickie, "But that's the part that's so unfair. I have nothing else on my mind. How come I have to be the one sitting around analyzing him in, like, microscopic detail, and he gets to be the one with other things on his mind," while Patty is in the other room analyzing her relationship with Graham in microscopic detail and he gets to be the one with other things (or other women) on his mind.

I agree that Angela and Jordan want the same thing (if for different reasons) but they seem to approach it from opposite ends of the spectrum. There is such a vast middle ground between their two stances, yet they are totally polarized at this point. I suppose that is another parallel between the Patty/Graham relationship - sometimes you just have to inch towards each other until you find yourselves close enough to touch.
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Post by starbug » Jan 20th 2003, 6:48 am

Watching this episode again last night, I noticed the theme of 'Stability vs Change'.

The first is the explosive change a star undergoes. Other things that indicate change are Patty's hair and Angela's forray into romantic relationships: 'What's amazing, is when you can feel your life going somewhere'. She stops seeing her life as static, and notices the changes in her romantic feelings for Jordan, and the fact that something is actually happening between them. Also on the 'change' side is the idea of Patty's that she and graham should go dancing. Clearly it's not something they have done before (and I agree that she mentions it in a group so that it is clear she is making an effort, and that other people notice). Plus Graham and Angela's conversation in the kitchen where he's talking to her about dating. It's clear the rituals of courtship have changed over time. The 'change' side of things makes up the more obvious plot details, and the focus of the episode and the character development is that things are not static - through Angela's development as a character we can also relate to her mother, and the fact that at some point, most people desire change (whether to relieve boredom, or because it's necessary to make them happy, or because it's a natural part of growing up).

On the stability side, things are a little more hidden; like smaller, sub-plots, or asides, which at the same time develop the characters and the situation. Some of the things I picked out were:
Camille and Patty's friendship being introduced. It becomes clear they have known each other for many years and their friendship is not reliant upon that of their daughters. They have been through intense periods of growing up together, and have fought, but through it all, the stability of their friendship remains strong.
Angela's rejection of Patty's idea of cutting her hair - Angela is clearly changing, but she still needs the rock of stability that is her mother to remain outside that change - so that she always has some sort of reference point if the change becomes uncomfortable. That way she is not completely branching out on her own, no matter how much she likes to think she is.
Brian's House - always being the same. It even smells the same. Just a small thing, but a definite part of the theme.
Graham's rejection of the other woman - Patty and Graham's relationship is stable (at least on the surface, and I believe it is truly solid, despite his wandering eyes) and it is clear that Angela has a solid homelife where dramatic change is not taking place (although I do think that Angela doesn't believe this given her seeing her father in The Pilot, and hearing him on the phone here). Graham makes a conscious choice against change.

So, which one wins out? Neither and both, I think. The momentum is toward change, but we are always reminded that some things are stable and unchanging, in a comforting sort of way.

Other things I liked in this episode:

'A kiss must result in intercourse' - hehehe. This rang so true for me - a number of guys I've been out with have assumed this to be the case, and it really made me laugh.

Graham's reaction to ballroom dancing- after the initial mocking, he agrees to go. But the way he says it to Patty makes it clear he's not entirely happy about it. Why does he do this? Is it to make clear that he is putting himself out about it? To make her feel like he's only doing it to placate her? I was always a bit confused about that.

The hilarious scene in the hallway - 'he wants you to look at his apparatus' - between Ricki, Rayanne, Brian and Angela. But the great thing about this is the part just preceding it, about having to come up with a 'combination you' when people who know you in completely different ways see you at the same time. I loved this. It's one of those quiet little sentences that makes MSCL what it is - spot on regarding the teenage years.

Thanks for starting the interesting discussion, Candygirl. :) I missed out alot of the stuff I'd thought about because you and Nightjessi had said it above already...

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Post by TomSpeed » Jan 20th 2003, 12:14 pm

Oh my! Candygirl, you've certainly covered a lot of ground. The stock market is closed today, so, hopefully, I will be able to cover a lot of ground today, too.



The number of times Angela's been kissed

Since Brian is her neighbor, I'm throwing his name in the hat as number 4. She couldn't decide whether to count a kiss with Brian as real kiss. My bet is that like most children, they probably sneaked a peck or two as kind of an experiment or whatever. It's only natural. I have a few fuzzy memories of me and a girl exchanging a few kisses behind my family's garage. Did the kisses mean anything? Not really. We were just curious.

Patty leaves for the office early

She is a workaholic. She simply feels the need to be the early bird. Graham clearly is not one. My favorite Patty and Graham moment so far -- Patty (...a kiss must lead to intercourse), Graham (it's a law in this state), Graham KISSES Patty [a real kiss, mind you], Patty WANTS intercourse after the kiss, but she has to go to work.


Bio Class

Favorite line from a class is Mrs. C saying "...before we cut our hearts open..." That is exactly what happens throughout the show. My guess is that Brian has created some great projects beforehand for her or other teachers. I'm not sure if there is any significance to her asking Brian if Angela is working on the project with him.

Angela picking up her bookbag with bloody gloves -- I noticed that, too. She leaves in a hurry. She probably doesn't think about it. But, that is gross!

Ballroom Dancing

Patty seems simply desperate to do something, anything to save her marraige. She just kind of throws the idea of ballroom dancing out there. I don't think she even thought about what their reactions would be. Her suggestion of ballroom dancing echoes her suggestion of ice skating in "Pilot."

Rayanne's eating icecream. Bold guess!

Tino asking Jordan to wait for him

Totally made up by Rickie and Rayanne. Jordan leaves to get away from Angela. He comes back to see if Tino showed.

Angela's skirt parting

Wow....this definitely has meaning. She is unintentionally revealed to Jordan. She is not ready. She pushes him away. These actions will be replayed many times.

Angela from France?

In the same sentence, Jordan is showing his intelligence and his stupidity. He is smart because he doesn't really believe Angela is from France. How would her being from France actually affect her ability to ask for a fake ID? He is stupid because he probably thinks that if Angela were from France, that would explain the way she acted in the car (pushing him away when he tried to kiss her).

Patty and Cinderella

She throws it pretty hard. It's fragile. I definitley think the shattering of the figurine stands both for Patty and Angela's efforts to claim their adulthood.

Favorite scenes in "Dancing in the Dark"

I have two. Angela's walking to see Jordan in his car. Her smile when she leans in the window. That has to be one of the most beautiful smiles I've ever seen.

The second scene involves Angela and Graham eating alone and talking. This scene says so much to me about love between a father and daughter. When Graham says that almost all of the men he knows are still trying to figure out how to be a man....he not only shares something important with Angela, he also tells himself something important. This scene echoes the scene with Patty and Graham after lovemaking. He wants to learn the steps to being a good husband and father.
Last edited by TomSpeed on Jan 20th 2003, 1:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Patty: If Rayanne's not seeing you, and we're not seeing you, who is seeing you?
Graham: And how much of you?
Angela: Dad!
Graham: Oh, I'm sorry! I asked a question about your life, didn't I? Woah, what came over me?
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Post by TomSpeed » Jan 20th 2003, 12:27 pm

Does anyone think Angela's washing the dishes that Rayanne and Rickie used while they were at Brian's has any significance? I cannot remember a friend volunteering to wash dishes at my place. I don't think it is a declaration of "love." But, it might be a declaration of "like."
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Patty: If Rayanne's not seeing you, and we're not seeing you, who is seeing you?
Graham: And how much of you?
Angela: Dad!
Graham: Oh, I'm sorry! I asked a question about your life, didn't I? Woah, what came over me?
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Post by starbug » Jan 20th 2003, 12:52 pm

TomSpeed wrote:Does anyone think Angela's washing the dishes that Rayanne and Rickie used while they were at Brian's has any significance? I cannot remember a friend volunteering to wash dishes at my place. I don't think it is a declaration of "love." But, it might be a declaration of "like."
Well, I always offer to wash up if I've eaten at a friend's house. If it's a really good friend who I've known for years, I'll just do it. As the guest, I think it's the polite thing to do. She brought Rayanne and Rickie into Brian's house so felt responsible for their mess... it seems quite natural to me, I have to say, if they were too rude to wash up after themselves.

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Post by Megs » Jan 20th 2003, 12:55 pm

Mrs. C is also writing down the names for the experiments wearing bloody gloves, yet no blood gets on the white paper. That always bugged my husband.

I don't think Angela washing the dishes has any important significance. I think she is trying to make up to Brian for using him by coming over with Rayanne and Rickie and meeting Jordan. They were dishes used by her friends, so maybe she felt like she should wash them. That doesn't seem too strange to me.

I love the scene where Rickie and Rayanne are trying to get Jordan to stay after he drops them off at Brian's. When they tell him Tino wants to talk to him, and he says, "About Frozen Embryos?" Rickie and Rayanne sort of trip over each other and you can tell by the expressions on their faces that they have no idea what he's talking about. But they figure by telling him yes, he will stay long enough to talk to Angela.

I have always appreciated the scene where Angela and Graham are talking about boys. From the way she says "Dad!" when trying to explain that kids don't date ("it's just a group of people. In a bunch.") To when he explains how hard it is to figure out how to be a man. You can tell at that moment, Graham makes the decision to be a man and not cheat on his wife and children. He was thinking that in bed with Patty, but I feel this is when he really made his decision.

Patty throwing and breaking her Cinderella symbolizes how her perfect, fairy-tale image of her marriage and her life is being shattered to pieces.
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Post by TomSpeed » Jan 20th 2003, 12:55 pm

Angela dyes her hair. Patty has her hair cut short. Even though Angela says, "Just because I changed my hair, you don't have to change yours," I'm a little surprised that Patty has her hair cut. She has such beautiful hair. Her getting her hair cut is a definite sign that even though she dismisses advice from women's magazines, she is influenced by it. She's desperate. Did you notice that she wears red to the dance lesson? She breaks one convention by having her hair cut, but she adheres to the other convention by wearing red. She is really confused. However, the fact that she wants to try anything is a sign of her love for Graham.

Isn't Graham's reaction the first time he sees her new short hair a dead on male reaction? He's stunned like a deer caught in a car's headlights. Graham's reaction is echoed by Neil's reaction. Angela has the right idea. She doesn't say anything. I'd like to say that I would have said something loving and clever. But, I know I'm not that smart. The only thing I know is that if a woman asks if she looks fat, the answer is "No!"
Last edited by TomSpeed on Jan 20th 2003, 1:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Patty: If Rayanne's not seeing you, and we're not seeing you, who is seeing you?
Graham: And how much of you?
Angela: Dad!
Graham: Oh, I'm sorry! I asked a question about your life, didn't I? Woah, what came over me?
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Post by Megs » Jan 20th 2003, 12:59 pm

My husband always appreciates Graham's and Neal's reaction to Patty's hair. He laughs every time. They really are dead on male reactions. I also love the look Patty gives Neal when they come home from ballroom dancing. :lol:
"I have all these dreams where I know exactly what to say. And you tell me, you know, that you forgive me."

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Megs
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Post by Megs » Jan 20th 2003, 3:08 pm

Why does Graham speak so openly about his discretions to Neil in his kitchen? This always surprised/shocked me. Patty, or Danielle, or Angela could walk in at any minute, or overhear the conversation... You would think he would be a bit more careful. That also bothered me about The Pilot. He is talking to this woman not a block away from the home he shares with his wife and children.

Also Graham says, "We haven't really done anything other than talk." The "really" part throws me off. Did they do something else, like kiss?

Graham tells Neil to talk him out of it, but when Neil right away says "Don't do it", Graham gives him a look like he was not expecting Neil to talk him out of it. Then why ask? If Graham knows it's wrong, why does he need his younger, unmarried brother to talk him out of it? It seems like he was expecting Neil to tell him to cheat. Why does he need Neil's approval to go ahead and meet the girl at the hotel?

That's another thing that bothers me about this scene. Why does he refer to the woman he is "talking to" as a "girl"? ("I met this girl.") For God's sake, he's 40. She has to be in her late 20s or early 30s, right? Isn't that a woman? What does that say about how Graham perceives women?

Also, Graham assures Neil that no one is getting a divorce. Doesn't he think his infidelity is a cause for divorce? Does he just think that Patty will never find out?

Yes, the whole Graham-being-a-cheater thing bothers me a bit. :wink:
"I have all these dreams where I know exactly what to say. And you tell me, you know, that you forgive me."

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TomSpeed
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Post by TomSpeed » Jan 20th 2003, 3:56 pm

Megs wrote:Why does Graham speak so openly about his discretions to Neil in his kitchen? This always surprised/shocked me. Patty, or Danielle, or Angela could walk in at any minute, or overhear the conversation... You would think he would be a bit more careful. That also bothered me about The Pilot. He is talking to this woman not a block away from the home he shares with his wife and children.

Also Graham says, "We haven't really done anything other than talk." The "really" part throws me off. Did they do something else, like kiss?

Graham tells Neil to talk him out of it, but when Neil right away says "Don't do it", Graham gives him a look like he was not expecting Neil to talk him out of it. Then why ask? If Graham knows it's wrong, why does he need his younger, unmarried brother to talk him out of it? It seems like he was expecting Neil to tell him to cheat. Why does he need Neil's approval to go ahead and meet the girl at the hotel?

That's another thing that bothers me about this scene. Why does he refer to the woman he is "talking to" as a "girl"? ("I met this girl.") For God's sake, he's 40. She has to be in her late 20s or early 30s, right? Isn't that a woman? What does that say about how Graham perceives women?

Also, Graham assures Neil that no one is getting a divorce. Doesn't he think his infidelity is a cause for divorce? Does he just think that Patty will never find out?

Yes, the whole Graham-being-a-cheater thing bothers me a bit. :wink:
Yes...it struck me as odd that Graham would discuss the possibility of him cheating on his wife in the kitchen, too. Anyone could walk in and/or overhear them. Later, Angela does hear him talking to the other woman on the telephone. My guess is that this is the first time that Graham has thought about having an affair. He hasn't thought things through. He also isn't dealing in reality.

Graham calls the other woman a "girl." I'm not sure his choice of girl over woman is that important. Many people just naturally say "girl" without regards to age. For example, I might say that I "like this girl at work." She's 23. I don't really mean anything by calling her a "girl." Girl is just easier to say than young woman or woman.

Neil's saying he isn't surprised that Graham is considering cheating on Patty is what strikes me. Why wouldn't he be surprised? Just a day or so ago he said that Patty and Graham are the happiest couple he knows. I think Winnie's writing is a little weak here.
TomSpeed

Patty: If Rayanne's not seeing you, and we're not seeing you, who is seeing you?
Graham: And how much of you?
Angela: Dad!
Graham: Oh, I'm sorry! I asked a question about your life, didn't I? Woah, what came over me?
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Natasha (candygirl)
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Post by Natasha (candygirl) » Jan 20th 2003, 8:38 pm

I agree with what other people have said about Angela washing the dishes at Brian's house. First of all, it's just good manners when you go to someone else's house to clean up the mess you have made, whether it's a birthday party, dinner, etc - this is just one of those things you learn as an adult, along with never show up at someone's house empty-handed even if they tell you they don't need anything (dinner - bring a bottle of wine, party - bring food or drinks). Angela, as a product of Patty and Graham parenting, strikes me as the kind of girl who writes thank you notes when she receives presents and cleans up when she is at someone else's house. I mean, imagine the Chases spending time at the Cherski house - if Angela didn't at least put her glass in the sink voluntarily, Patty would prompt her to do it. Based on just her nice middle class upbringing, I think that Angela would feel compelled to put used dishes in the sink. Add to the equation that she knows she took advantage of the situation (and she feels guilty enough to tell Brian she isn't going to take the extra credit), washing up the plates and glasses that HER friends used when she was supposed to be helping Brian but was actually trying to hook up with Jordan - it seems like she was trying to clean up the mess she created, both literally and figuratively. At least with the dishes clean, Brian is left with neither more nor less than before she came over. On a superficial (visual) level, there has been no change - the situation is static. On a deeper level, that is not true. Angela has admitted that she felt that her life finally figured out how to get good, while Brian has seen the motivation behind her actions.
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