Gender Relations

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lance
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Gender Relations

Post by lance » May 13th 2005, 1:17 pm

Huge Broad Topic that one could drive a large truck through.

Ran across this hilarious commentary on gender relations. Take a listen and tell all what you think and if you agree/disagree:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... Id=4630884

-LanceMan

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Post by Nothingman » May 13th 2005, 6:35 pm

"If I have to explain it, than nevermind :roll: " So true!

I agree with everything she said. Men say what they mean, there is not hidden meaning. In terms of directness I'd agree men are better communicators. But when it comes to communicating with children I think women have the edge. Which makes sense to me. If I'm out hunting in need to communicate effectively and to the point. If I'm raising children I need to be able to understand the emotional meaning behind my child's words and actions. Let's face it children are not direct communicators when it comes to expressing thier own needs and feelings.

I know this type of thinking offends some women as barbaric or outdated. But I think no matter how advanced we may think we are or how much we may dream of equality, we can't fight 10,000 years of evolution.

One thing that continues to facinate me is difference in the decision making processes between the sexes. There seems to be this basic fundamental difference in logic. Where men deal with facts and base decisions on the best possible outcome depending on the know values of the problem. But women through one more element into that process, emotion. This seems to be the X factor, why the same situation would lead to one conclusion one day, and a completely different conclusion the next day. I don't think all decisions made by men are logical, or all decisions made by women are emotional, but I think the majority follow this pattern.

From a man's perspective, it makes it very difficult to predict a woman's reaction when the solution seems clear to us because the variables could only lead to that solution. So when a woman comes up with a completely different response, it seems like it's way out of left field because it just seems logical to arrive at the conclusion we came to. This is why we aren't mind readers, our minds don't work the same. I think a lot of times when we do anticipate things correctly it's not because we read your mind and thought the same things. I think a lot of the time we just remember from experience when A happens, usually B happens too. We don't know why A happens with B, we just know it does.

Here's a small example. I wear nice shoes when I go out, it's one of those areas of my clothing I pay particular attention to. I know women pay attention to my shoes, I know they like it when I have a nice pair on. I don't know why they like shoes so much, to me they just keep my feet warm and dry, but to women they represent so much more. I don't understand it, and I don't really care. All I know is when I wear nice shoes, A, then I get desired attention from women, B.
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Post by starbug » May 24th 2005, 7:06 am

OK, woman's perspective.

I am being completely honest when I say I don't partake of the first and foremost complaint: 'if I have to explain it, never mind...'. I have no problem explaining to someone why I am upset with them, if they ask.

I think a fundamental difference is that if I am trying to make it clear that I'm upset about something, and they don't ask what it is, then that prompts the you don't care enough to notice that I'm upset response. It's a subtle difference, I suppose. Eventually I will become fed up with stomping around the house trying to make him notice, and (and I *know* this is really immature) create an argument about some minor point, which can then lead into the real reason I'm upset. I think this is where the programme headed, in a round-about sort of way. I think part of the reason women appear to launch arguments that are completely left-field, is that they've had to use the 'create an argument' tactic as a smokescreen to discuss the thing that's really upset them, because men usually don't notice when a woman is having what appears to be a completely unexplained emotional response to something. The root, I suppose, is what Nothingman said. Women are much more attuned to other people's emotions. I agree that that's genetic, hereditary, etc etc, and there's not a whole lot women can do about it. When a man doesn't notice that a woman is upset (even though the signals are often really subtle), the woman judges by her own standards and thinks 'if he were upset, I would notice, because I care. He isn't noticing, therefore he obviously doesn't care.'. Then when men get into the 'you left the oven on overnight' argument, they really aren't expecting the 'and you make me feel undervalued from the moment you wake up to the moment you go to sleep' discussion. It appears left field, and logically of course, it is. But we all know how men behave when its 'time for a serious talk'. Run screaming to the hills! So I think that women feel it is easier to take men by surprise when they have something to discuss, because men don't have the chance to 'we'll discuss it later'. Of course the set-up is counterproductive, because men are then on the defensive. To my mind, the solution is easy: men need to ask, daily, 'is everything OK? you look a bit down.' :wink:

However, I think that during the structure of an argument, that's where I depart from much of the 'womankind' that was discussed in the programme. Once I'm into the argument I wanted to provoke, I will stick exactly to the logicality of argument. I don't tend to throw in weird emotions to justify my point, and I NEVER say 'if I have to explain it, never mind'. That's just not fair, and on the same par as 'we're trying you for x crime, but we won't tell you what the evidence is against you'. Possibly it is because Mr. S and I are both legally trained, but we do tend to resolve arguments with the minimum of irrationality. That's not to say we won't have an argument that goes along the lines of 'you did x and it made me feel y' with a response being 'I didn't realise that, because y is a weird emotional response to situation x'. But usually, the argument is resolved when I point out that I don't have to validate my emotional responses with logicality. It is enough that he knows that the result y will occur when he does x. It's up to him whether he wants to do it again and risk another argument with the added 'and you've done this before, I explained it, and you did it again. This shows you definitely didn't care enough about my feelings for my liking.'

Phew. that was a bit of an essay. Can you tell I'm meant to be studying?

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Post by lance » May 28th 2005, 11:32 am

:shock:


Wow.

Tremendous responses.

Keep in mind all that I meant this as a bit of light hearted fun. Generalizations are just that, general. Since I opened this can of worms...

A friend of mine threw another one out: Men think like waffles, women like spaghetti. The idea being that waffles tend to work in straight lines, boxes, not given to huge leaps to other areas. Spaghetti tends to loop in various directions and certainly more creative than the straight line waffle squares.

Starbug,

With you and Mr.S's legal training I can only imagine that your occassional fights are fought with the most detailed and well ordered arguments.

I agree that the occasional male "Well discuss it later" line is a bit of a throw away meant to deflect from dealing with the issue at hand. Having been on the receiving end of the argument from left field to get male attention to the real issue at hand thing, I can give you a bit of perspective.

By the time most guys I know make it through the 45 minutes to an hour it can take to get through the left field argument, they are pretty much exhausted and lack the attention to give to the "real heart of the matter".

I do understand though, that not everyone can get to the heart of a matter in 45 seconds or less.

Also there does some to be this habit of expressing fear through conflict, that I have seen many, many couples do.

One partner is clearly upset/distressed about something really important. Instead of just saying "Hold me, I'm scared" the partner launches into a loooong diatribe about unhappiness caused by the other partner. Often instead of getting the "Hold me, I'm scared" response sought, the other partner becomes defensive and hostile.

Food for thought.

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Interesting news

Post by lance » Jun 29th 2005, 12:12 pm

NPR has this story on the declining birth rate of boys in the United States:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... Id=4712203

"In 1942 1,555 boys were born for every 1,000 girls born. By 2002 1,048 boys were born for every 1,000 girls born...resulting in 850,000 fewer men... a decline of 15%"

:shock:

Obviously if this trend continues major impacts could happen on society.

This of course led me to thinking of the old movie catch phrase:

"I wouldn't go out with you if you were the last guy on earth!"

Hmmm, might be putting that one to the test (tongue planted firmly in cheek).

-LanceMan

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Post by SanDeE* » Jun 29th 2005, 6:15 pm

As long as there's one for me out there I'll be all right! :wink:

I just want more cute guys to come through the store I work at. That's all I have to say about gender relations right now. :P
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Post by emmie » Jun 29th 2005, 10:16 pm

hm, I didn't really know which thread to put his under, but this one seems as good as any really. this past weekend I was at a party. I started a discussion on dating with a few guys, something that's become a trend of mine when tipsy. well, it wasn't so much of a discussion, as me just going off about how difficult it is to be shy. it all actually reminded me of our "guys" thread. I actually had a really good discourse with this one guy I didn't know very well. I think it's true, especially in my case, that sometimes it's easier to hear things from strangers than from friends. afterall, they are the most objective in the situation.

it's funny how someone you hardly know can impact your life. this person was able to convince me to voice my feelings to a guy that I've cared about for quite a while. and as a very shy and guarded person, this was a huge deal. the only other time I have shared my feelings like this was with my best friend, I was given the you're-a-great-person-but... speech. this time was different. I wrote a very honest, direct, and short letter. I did it almost without regard to the outcome. I had come to a point where it was worth loosing a friend, just to know. I'm sick of always living my life wondering, ya know? I thought the response would the same as with my best friend years ago. but that's not what happened. he wrote back that he shared a special affection for me as well, and now wants to spend more time with me.

so, huh. things can actually happen that way? you express your feelings, and so does the other person. and then sometimes good things happen. well. maybe I should have been acting like a normal person long ago. now I just get to obsess over what happens next. because afterall, I'm still a communication/social retard. but in the meantime I'll revel in my girlish giddiness. :-P

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Post by Jody Barsch* » Jun 29th 2005, 11:28 pm

emmie wrote:I'm sick of always living my life wondering, ya know? ... he wrote back that he shared a special affection for me as well, and now wants to spend more time with me.

so, huh. things can actually happen that way? you express your feelings, and so does the other person. and then sometimes good things happen. well. maybe I should have been acting like a normal person long ago. now I just get to obsess over what happens next. because afterall, I'm still a communication/social retard. but in the meantime I'll revel in my girlish giddiness. :-P
YEA EMMIE!!! How exciting! Big claps!
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Post by Jody Barsch* » Jun 29th 2005, 11:32 pm

Kristin wrote:As long as there's one for me out there I'll be all right! :wink:
:mrgreen: Good call Kristin.
Last edited by Jody Barsch* on Jun 29th 2005, 11:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by lance » Jun 29th 2005, 11:32 pm

emmie wrote:hm, I didn't really know which thread to put his under, but this one seems as good as any really. this past weekend I was at a party. I started a discussion on dating with a few guys, something that's become a trend of mine when tipsy. well, it wasn't so much of a discussion, as me just going off about how difficult it is to be shy. it all actually reminded me of our "guys" thread. I actually had a really good discourse with this one guy I didn't know very well. I think it's true, especially in my case, that sometimes it's easier to hear things from strangers than from friends. afterall, they are the most objective in the situation.

it's funny how someone you hardly know can impact your life. this person was able to convince me to voice my feelings to a guy that I've cared about for quite a while. and as a very shy and guarded person, this was a huge deal. the only other time I have shared my feelings like this was with my best friend, I was given the you're-a-great-person-but... speech. this time was different. I wrote a very honest, direct, and short letter. I did it almost without regard to the outcome. I had come to a point where it was worth loosing a friend, just to know. I'm sick of always living my life wondering, ya know? I thought the response would the same as with my best friend years ago. but that's not what happened. he wrote back that he shared a special affection for me as well, and now wants to spend more time with me.

so, huh. things can actually happen that way? you express your feelings, and so does the other person. and then sometimes good things happen. well. maybe I should have been acting like a normal person long ago. now I just get to obsess over what happens next. because afterall, I'm still a communication/social retard. but in the meantime I'll revel in my girlish giddiness. :-P
Very, very interesting that. My brother in High School was extremely anti-social: he hated the veneration of the sports teams, never attended pep rallies and was not interested in dating anyone, period.

As a result he literally had lines of women coming to talk to me, soliticiing his advice on guys. Since he was not interested in dating I guess he was considered "safe". Funny how that works out.

-LanceMan

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Re: Gender Relations

Post by msclrules » Jun 30th 2005, 4:43 pm

lance wrote:Huge Broad Topic that one could drive a large truck through.

Ran across this hilarious commentary on gender relations. Take a listen and tell all what you think and if you agree/disagree:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... Id=4630884

-LanceMan
um well i think that men tend to be better communicators, i agree wit the person who said it and i also agree that women are better at understanding men and children. thats all i pretty much have to say.
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Post by Jody Barsch* » Aug 8th 2005, 2:03 pm

Okay, so I recently went on part one and part two of a first date with someone I hope to never hear from or see again. To begin the story, maybe it should be said that although I’ve had two serious long-term relationships, and several silly minor relationships here and there, I’m not really one for going out on first dates and all that with people I don’t know. I’m much more about naturally finding myself developing feelings for, and a relationship with, someone I’m already friends with, than going out looking for dates with people I don’t know. So, these afore mentioned dates make the third “first date” I’ve ever been on. (All three of which have been unpleasant to horrible.) So, to tell the story: this number 3 date fellow was seated at the same table as my date and I at a wedding I attended in early July. I literally said a maximum of five sentences to this #3 dude the entire evening – literally, I hardly knew he was there we had so little to do with each other that evening. Well, only two days later, I received an email and several myspace messages from this guy who had googled me, found my email, and then asked me out for drinks or Shakespeare in the park. I thought this was a little weird and very forward, but I decided to ignore my inner-cynic and make the effort to make a new friend. After a few awkward emails, phone calls, and voicemails, we met up about midnight on a Friday night, briefly attended a party my friend was throwing, and then went for a few drinks. Although the evening was a bit awkward, he was pretty eager to hang out again that same weekend, but as I was hoping to relieve some of the pressure by keeping it from being just the two us, I invited him to a friend’s birthday dinner we were having the next evening. Well, I was over that before the car ride to the restaurant was over. We’d already talked a little books, a little politics, a little films, a little religion, a little professional talk (both teachers), a little personal backgrounds, a little reproductive freedom, a little sports, a little college, a little booze, and then there was nothing to talk about. Big long dreadful silences. Even worse lengths of time as he crowed of, and basked in, his arrogance and self-satisfaction of wit and cleverness. He spent the evening trying to reach across the table to hold my hand, which I only found irritating as everything that had passed between us had, at best, ever only been mildly cordial. Probably this will sound ridiculous, but I also didn’t like that he made such a point of picking me up and driving me everywhere and trying to pay for absolutely everything. I mean, those things are nice on occasion with someone you’re dating – but when you’re with someone you don’t even know, it seems to be more about power play, or the idea of what a date should be like, rather than a genuine act for someone you actually care for. Anyway, it made me uncomfortable. (Sorry to you gents who think he was just trying to be a nice guy. I’m sure he was. But he was more concerned with how he wanted to see the operation play out than with my comfort level.) So, push forward to the end of the evenings saying goodnight in his car. I’d be surprised if he was expecting a kiss, but I do think he was looking for a hug or something. Well, the first night I just left it at good nights and thank yous. There’s a lot of things I’d still like to learn in my life, but I do feel that at my age, I’m no longer going to do anything that I don’t want to just because it seems like that’s what’s expected of me, or just easier to do. I’m not going to hug somebody who I feel absolutely no connection with just because we drank some coffee together and talked a little 14th amendment. The second night he kissed my hand. He actually kissed my hand. That’s too much for me. I can’t take this guy any longer, not even as a friend, I’m not feelin’ it. So now he’s calling me and emailing me to hang out together again, and I just don’t want to. I’ve gotta say, I’m impressed with his bravado, but I also find his enthusiasm irritating, and actually a bit contemptible, since he’s doing all this even though there’s clearly not been any kind of connection or moments of simpatico understanding between us. I know many people enjoy it and get a thrill from it, but so far, for me, dating strangers has been awkward, uncomfortable, confusing, and fruitless. So now do I call him and tell him I’m not interested in seeing him any longer, or do I phase him out through a series of unreturned calls and emails? One thing I know, I’ll be sure not to leave my name setting behind when leaving any future weddings I attend; I don’t like feeling this awkward and unsure about things.)

Really what it boils down to is that I was open to hanging out as friends and seeing if that worked, and then possibly exploring if there was the potential for anything else. But he skipped the friends thing, he skipped checking in with me to see how I felt about any of this, and shifted straight into dating mode. I don’t think that’s right. He doesn’t even know me.
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Post by Natasha (candygirl) » Aug 8th 2005, 3:21 pm

Man, I totally sympathize! I am also the type of person who prefers to date people I know and feel a connection with. One night a bunch of us were talking about it and this girl said that she had never dated someone who already knew - she was always dating random guys that she somehow met. I thought well, that probably why none of those relationships last! Granted she was only 22 at the time, but of all the guys I have ever dated, whether casually or seriously, the majority of them were people I'd already known and hung out with. They weren't all necessarily close friends, but definitely people I had spent some time with. There are a few people who I didn't really know, but those guys fall into the "random hookups" category.

:mrgreen:

I think that part of the problem with some guys is summarized by this anecdote: one hungover morning we were all sitting in the cafeteria and some of my male friends were rating the girls who walked by. They didn't give them numbers, just yes, no, or maybe. It was that day I learned the principle that a no or a maybe can become a yes given the right circumstances (enough beer). Even the most heinous girl could become a yes, say, if you were stranded on a desert island with her and really really drunk. In a similar vein, I think some guys assume that girls are playing games and that given the right circumstances, you wil come around. Although this may or may not be true, my experience with those kinds of guys is that they have no clue what those circumstances might be! As mean as this might sound, sometimes guys just don't hear no. There are a few really persistent guys who I said no to several times and all they heard was, "Yes, come chase me you silly boy!" (in a French accent, no doubt). I have tried to stop more than one guy by giving them some variation of "Don't kiss me." It's surprising how many of them interpret that as "Kiss me immediately!"

Despite this, I think the best thing is to be honest. It's possible that he is just misinterpreting your body language as being shy and he really thinks you like him. I would just tell him something along the lines of "I'm really flattered but I don't think we're compatible and I don't think we should continue seeing each other."
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Post by emmie » Aug 8th 2005, 9:32 pm

Jody Barsch* wrote: One thing I know, I’ll be sure not to leave my name setting behind when leaving any future weddings I attend; I don’t like feeling this awkward and unsure about things.)
wow, weddings sound dangerous. I agree with you and candygirl on dating strangers. for me, it's just too much effort getting to know someone cold turkey in an awkward, pressure-filled situation. I, too, would much rather things just happen naturally. and if you are friends or at least acquaintances first, you know that you have something in common. I had a similar situation happen a couple of years ago. a co-worker invited me out for drinks. I thought we were simply hanging out, being chill. but I realized too late that he thought it was a date. he also tried to hold my hand and like carress my shoulder and stuff. it was sooo weird and uncomfortable. and he got a little miffed when I took my hand back after a little while. but honestly, I had only worked with the guy once and we didn't know each other. to me, hand-holding is very intimate and not to be done with someone you just met. unless it is very obvious that you both have fallen hard for each other in one night.
candygirl wrote:In a similar vein, I think some guys assume that girls are playing games and that given the right circumstances, you wil come around. Although this may or may not be true, my experience with those kinds of guys is that they have no clue what those circumstances might be! As mean as this might sound, sometimes guys just don't hear no.
I think it's difficult for guys to distinguish between politeness and attraction. I know for me, I'm usually a nice easy-going person. but just because I'm nice doesn't mean that I want to go out with that person again. it's sad though when it's totally obvious to you that there is no connection, but the other person is oblivious. I agree with candygirl that you just have to be honest. because this guy seems persistent. and it may take a while to phase him out. :) good luck!

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Post by Jody Barsch* » Aug 8th 2005, 11:34 pm

candygirl wrote:There are a few really persistent guys who I said no to several times and all they heard was, "Yes, come chase me you silly boy!" (in a French accent, no doubt). I have tried to stop more than one guy by giving them some variation of "Don't kiss me." It's surprising how many of them interpret that as "Kiss me immediately!"
:mrgreen:

It was great to read your responses guys. Thanks for sharing, and thanks for the input. :D
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