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special_k
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Post by special_k » Oct 30th 2004, 8:43 pm

Nothingman wrote:Women don’t start hitting their expiration dates till about 30 anyway...
Please explain what you mean by this statement. I don't think I really knew what worked for me until I entered my thirtysomething's. What I don't get is guy's who think that it's all tightly packed behind that zipper yearning to come down. Like, hello? Passion has another zip code.
"Sometimes things happen between people that you don't really expect. And sometimes the things that are important are the ones that seem the weirdest or the most wrong, and those are the ones that change your life."

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Post by Nostradamus » Oct 31st 2004, 12:33 pm

I've always heard that women, on average, reach the peak of their sexuality (whatever that means) at 35; men top out at 18. It's one of those vaguely quoted pseudo facts that you hear a lot, but no one seems to know where it came from. Maybe the Kinsey report, or some other survey. Anyone know what I'm talking about?

:scratchinghead:

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Post by SanDeE* » Oct 31st 2004, 2:34 pm

He doesn't... and he doesn't have internet anyway. Perhaps I should change my screen name? Whatever.

I heard the sexual peak for women was 28, men 18.
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Post by emmie » Oct 31st 2004, 5:41 pm

I had this weird deja vu thing going on last night. so, last night was the last night of the film festival. so we all went out and I got really drunk off of wine. and with my inhabitions gone, I began to tell everyone about the guy in our class that I'm interested in. I was asking them many of the same questions I've asked here. so we all got in this big discussion about relationships. then a few more people joined us and before I knew it, we had this huge group discussing me and this guy. and the best advice I got, came from a guy I had never met before. it was really cool because it was so similar to our discussions here. we were all being really blunt and open. it was terrific to be able to discuss these things in person, and have everyone being totally honest. :)

ironically, two nights ago I saw the film Kinsey. it's about the true life story of Kinsey and how he did all of his sexual research and everything. honestly, it was one of the best films at the festival. I highly recommend it whenever it comes out!

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Post by Nothingman » Nov 1st 2004, 8:26 pm

special_k wrote:
Nothingman wrote:Women don’t start hitting their expiration dates till about 30 anyway...
Please explain what you mean by this statement. I don't think I really knew what worked for me until I entered my thirtysomething's. What I don't get is guy's who think that it's all tightly packed behind that zipper yearning to come down. Like, hello? Passion has another zip code.
By the time most women reach 30 they've passed the peak of their physical attractiveness. This is the expiration date we refer too. Do some still look very good, of course, but did they, or could have looked better in their 20's? Yes. It's just like when we go to the store to buy milk. If we've got the choice between milk that expires on the 5th and milk that expires on the 10th, we pick the 10th. If it's the same price then we'll pick up the fresh jug, if it's cheaper (meaning easier to obtain in this analogy) then we might take the milk on the 5th, we can always get fresher milk the next trip to the store.

Now many women say they are in better shape now in their 30's than they were in their 20's, but that's a personal choice, the prime window has been missed. They could have hit the gym at 23 and looked great in their 20's, better than they do now in their 30's even though they are in shape.

Your point about women reaching their sexual peak in their 30's is valid, and in terms of pure sexual skill you are right that they have more to offer. However, men are visual creatures and most of us prefer an average sexual experience with an above average looking partner than the other way around. In terms of causual dating, I personally have no problem with older women in their 30's. The sex is much better and has taught me a lot. I wouldn't consider a serious relationship with them, but I get the impression that most women wouldn't look to a 24 yr old guy for a serious relationship either so it works out well for both parties. I think the conflict arrises when the 35 yr old guy still selects the milk that expires the 10th. Take a 34 yr old women, she would like to date the most sucessful/desireable man she can find that is similar in age. But she's competing with women 10 years younger than her. Because of the reasons I stated above the man most often chooses the younger woman. Leaving the 34 yr old frustrated and sorting through the group of men who aren't attractive to younger women, leading women to say "there are no good men left."

The bottomline being that women have the most options before reaching their expiration date. So your chances of finding a "good man" in that time period are higher. That is not to say that their are no options past that point, the number and quality of them just begin to decrease.
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Post by lance » Nov 2nd 2004, 12:17 am

emmie wrote:I had this weird deja vu thing going on last night. so, last night was the last night of the film festival. so we all went out and I got really drunk off of wine. and with my inhabitions gone, I began to tell everyone about the guy in our class that I'm interested in. I was asking them many of the same questions I've asked here. so we all got in this big discussion about relationships. then a few more people joined us and before I knew it, we had this huge group discussing me and this guy. and the best advice I got, came from a guy I had never met before. it was really cool because it was so similar to our discussions here. we were all being really blunt and open. it was terrific to be able to discuss these things in person, and have everyone being totally honest. :)
Its really cool when you can get this kind of honest support. Gives one hope for humanity.

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Post by special_k » Dec 14th 2004, 8:47 am

Nothingman wrote:
Now many women say they are in better shape now in their 30's than they were in their 20's, but that's a personal choice, the prime window has been missed. They could have hit the gym at 23 and looked great in their 20's, better than they do now in their 30's even though they are in shape.


And we'd still have had to deal with the limitations of guys who were pretty clueless on many levels. Prime window to hell, I like the ability to be more selective at a point in my life where sex isn't a competition or about the settling of scores.


Your point about women reaching their sexual peak in their 30's is valid, and in terms of pure sexual skill you are right that they have more to offer.


Actually, it goes beyond that. When I was in my twenties I rarely dated within my age group. I was more interested in guys that had more to offer than stamina. Like, only a truly remarkable man can seduce a woman's mind before ever touching her body. Some guy's I've known have been put off at the very notion. Why? Is it all about them???


However, men are visual creatures and most of us prefer an average sexual experience with an above average looking partner than the other way around.


Acknowledged. Thank goodness we're not all so shallow. I mean, I've been guilty of that but, experience taught me to seek quality in a man. It's my body to give. May as well pick a guy I'm going to really enjoy myself with. Whether he's 20 or 45, it doesn't really matter.


In terms of causual dating, I personally have no problem with older women in their 30's. The sex is much better and has taught me a lot. I wouldn't consider a serious relationship with them, but I get the impression that most women wouldn't look to a 24 yr old guy for a serious relationship either so it works out well for both parties.


Erm, I've dated "younger" guys...even shared living space with a couple. It's not about numbers, nothingman. The 19 year old I dated and lived with at 29 was every bit my equal and more than capable of shouldering things if need be. God, what a breath of fresh air he was for me.


The bottomline being that women have the most options before reaching their expiration date. So your chances of finding a "good man" in that time period are higher. That is not to say that their are no options past that point, the number and quality of them just begin to decrease.


I get your point, though I think my chances have increased through personal awareness and more realistic expectations of the men in my life. From the muskiness I can still smell a few hours after being around a certain guy on the cusp of his twenties to the warmth instilled by the voice of a 37 year old friend I find myself wishing I'd known years ago...it's all good. I count these men as blessings in my life. Quality has absolutely nothing to do with the car a man drives, or how much money he makes. It goes beyond that, and these lovely guys bear that out.

Happy Christmas, Nothingman. o__O

"Sometimes things happen between people that you don't really expect. And sometimes the things that are important are the ones that seem the weirdest or the most wrong, and those are the ones that change your life."

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Post by SanDeE* » Dec 14th 2004, 12:16 pm

special_k wrote: From the muskiness I can still smell a few hours after being around a certain guy on the cusp of his twenties to the warmth instilled by the voice of a 37 year old friend I find myself wishing I'd known years ago...it's all good. I count these men as blessings in my life. Quality has absolutely nothing to do with the car a man drives, or how much money he makes. It goes beyond that, and these lovely guys bear that out.
That's totally true, special_k. Well put! I love the men in my life, too - I really value their opinions and friendship. And to me, all the men in my life are handsome and worthy of love, and I seriously don't understand when they tell me they don't have any women interested in them sometimes. Of course, at the same time, I can't see myself as a romantic partner of most of these guys. We are great friends, maybe even flirt (well, yeah), but overall I can see that we would not make a good couple because of some of my behaviors as well as theirs.
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Post by Nothingman » Dec 20th 2004, 5:50 pm

special_k, thank you for the christmas wishes, I hope yours is a merry one as well. You've summed up the female prespective very well. I won't argue with anything you've said, there isn't any point. I'm speaking from the male perspective, and you, the female. So naturally, they are quite different. Which way is better or which is the way it should be is irrelevent, we're never going to think the same and that's fine, we'd be a lot less interesting to each other if we did. I just want to touch on a few points that our dialog has illustrated and how that relates to men.

I like the ability to be more selective at a point in my life where sex isn't a competition or about the settling of scores.
When I was in my twenties I rarely dated within my age group. I was more interested in guys that had more to offer than stamina. Like, only a truly remarkable man can seduce a woman's mind before ever touching her body. Some guy's I've known have been put off at the very notion. Why? Is it all about them???
Women choose sexual partners based on what type of experience they think they are going to have with them. Who can give them the best experience or give them something they haven't had before. It's important to note, experience and being able to provide a memmorable experience aren't the same thing. Experience might help you in that ability but it doesn't autmatically qualify you and it's not a must have in order to provide a memmorable experience.

For women, just about every man who has ever started a conversation with you would have sex with you, so finding someone to have sex with isn't hard. Finding someone whom you want to have sex and can give that experience, emotionally and physically, you're seeking is the challenge.

For guys, it's not so different, just different criteria. There are a lot of women who will have sex with us, but finding one who excites us and full fills our needs is the challenge for us. Our needs are just different, we want someone who looks good, and is into us. That is what makes a good experience for us. So in a way we are seeking the same thing, we just take different things away from the encounter.

Your point about seducing a woman's mind comes down to one thing. It's really all about us. Kudo's to the men with that level of game, but the abililty to stimulate your mind and get you arroused that way is still about man in his mind. It's about what the mental stimulation does to you physically, it's about having that influence or control over you that we can do it, it's about our abilities as a lover, and it's about what it's going to lead physically later on.

This applies to how men view your sexual enjoyment as well. It's an ego thing if we can pleasure you fully. The more they're into it, the more I'm into it, and it pleases me to please them, but again, it comes back to me. I'm taking pleasure in your pleasure, and I do it because I enjoy that. Other reasons we do it is because we take pride in our craft, or if you enjoy it, you'll want to do it more. Also, if we keep you satisfied then you're less likely to look elsewhere and remain faithful.

Time to get back to work, I'll continue this a bit later.
"To come to your senses, you must first go out of your mind." - Alan Watts

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Post by Guest » Dec 22nd 2004, 4:52 am

A 2003 study at Cornell University covers many of the points we've been discussing in this thread:

PDF of the study results (requires Adobe Acrobat)

Brief summary of the research on About.com
Important Findings

1. On each of the 10 characteristics, participants' rating for their partners correlated with their ratings for themselves. In order words, people who indicated that a particular characteristic was important in a partner are those who rated themselves highly in that same category.

"People seem to be looking for soul mates on many levels, and that makes adaptive sense," said Dr. Emlen in a telephone interview with a reporter from the New York Times. "Peter and I are evolutionary biologists, so we're both interested in why people would have rules that essentially say, seek someone who is like yourself on many of the things you value. Well, if you do, you'll end up with a compatible mate, and less conflict in the relationship, and a better chance of a long-term bond and successful child rearing."

2. Certain characteristics were rated as more important than others, by most participants.

"Surprisingly, physical attractiveness is not all that important -- except to people who rate themselves as physically attractive, the Brad Pitts and Jennifer Annistons of the world," says Dr. Emlen, who himself has been married to the same woman for 30 years. It is those so-called "family values" characteristics--good parenting qualities, devotion and sexual fidelity—“that's what people say they're looking for in a long-term relationship. And most people say they perceive those same characteristics in themselves."

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Post by Nostradamus » Dec 22nd 2004, 4:54 am

D'oh! That was me. My browser crashed and I forgot to log back in.

:oops:
I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure.
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Post by Jody Barsch* » Apr 29th 2006, 5:47 pm

In December, or maybe late November, I can’t remember now, I got back together with my college boyfriend of three years. Because some of the issues that broke us up are still unresolved, we are pretending that we’re not together, but in reality, and for all intents and purposes, we are. None of my friends or family members who know are excited about this, and although I’m pretty sure we’ll never be able to maintain something long term, I’m happy and having a good time. But, as the months are passing by, and what was supposed to end after my winter break draws out to summer vacation, I’m starting to examine my motivations behind this reprise.

Earlier this year (overlapping a bit in fact with the current boy) I was just beginning to date a guy at work. He’s ten years older than I am, a little awkward, and he sometimes says the strangest things, but I just thought he was the sexiest thing. I had a crush on him for most of last school year, and always just wanted to kiss him. This year at the beginning of the year party, we were alone sitting up on the roof of this amazing house on cliffs overlooking the ocean, and I was a little drunk, and wearing a very fun skirt that just made me want to make out with him. I almost did, but I thought that randomly kissing a possibly unreceptive coworker probably wasn’t the best way to begin the year, and so I held off. We did eventually start going out together (we had some really great dates (activity wise)), but I got frustrated when things didn’t seem to progress. I’m not talking commitment-wise; we never seemed to really relax around each other – it felt like we were perpetually on a first date, not even that we’d been casual friends the year before, but strangers who’d just met. In plays and movies that we went to together, he never leaned in to be near me, he would never even touch me except for an occasional and brief pat/rub on the shoulder blade, or for the kiss goodnight. The kisses ranged from pitiful, to awkward, to just gross. I don’t understand; how does a 35 year old, who reportedly was close to getting married once, not know how to kiss? Anyway, I just started feeling really awkward, which made me resentful and disappointed. It was around this time that I started hanging out with my ex, and everything with him is so familiar, and exciting, and playful and close, and we just slipped back in. And I’ve been wondering: Am I afraid to have to rebuild intimacy with someone new? I haven’t been with a huge amount of people, and the few real long-term people I’ve been with, we always seemed to just, I don’t know, be there already. Now, dating new people, I seem impatient for that sense of familiarity. I don’t know if my expectations are unrealistic and I really am being impatient; or if this particular guy just wasn’t a good match, and I’m just over thinking it; or if I’m forgetting what it was actually like building new relationships with past partners; or if this happens to everyone … I’m pretty self-conscious so it takes me a while to feel completely comfortable physically with people, but on the other hand, I’m pretty open and usually form close friendships fairly quickly … I’m just wondering why things didn’t really work out with the guy from work? And if I hadn’t let myself get tempted by my ex, would I have stayed around a little longer and things would have gotten better? My sister and her husband keep telling me that my even being friends with the (ex?)boyfriend is ruining my/our willingness to pursue new relationships. Sometimes I agree, but I mostly feel like I’m passing time with someone I love very much, and with whom I enjoy being. Any thoughts or similar experiences?
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Post by nkatsa » May 2nd 2006, 2:44 am

hi there jody! :)

i just stumbled upon this thread and found your predicament fascinating. I think it is a frequent temptation to want to slip back into what's familiar and easy even if it may not necessarily be the best thing for you in the long run. however, if as you said, your ex is someone you do love and care for very much, it's not doing anyone any good to be halfway in this relationship, with you guys not really wanting to acknowledge or admit that you are together, cuz then that definitely sounds a lot like you're just clinging onto ghosts for fear of actually moving on. Either you guys take the time and effort to resolve your issues and take another stab at actually being together (maybe you've both grown up a little bit in your time apart and are ready for each other again), or if that's not an option (or if you friends and family members may be right about thinking he's bad news), then it's something it's probably time to leave behind so that you can start fresh with nothing holding you back when the next great guy comes along.

as for whether this co-worker that you've been seeing is indeed the next great guy... maybe that still remains to be seen. how many dates have you two been on? it might not even be your fears of moving on that are making this budding relationship seem difficult, maybe he is just shy and socially awkward and it takes him longer than average to really be comfortable with somebody. you can give him the benefit of the doubt and keep trying to see if you really do click or if maybe you're trying to force a connection just to prove to yourself (on some level) that you have another immediate option other than your ex.

but some very good advice that a friend once told me awhile back was that if it actually is right, it shouldn't be so hard for it to feel right. i used to date this guy that sent me so many mixed messages and i never understood what was going on with him. he would tell me how much he liked me, but that he was just so confused because he didn't know if he was ready for a relationship, and that he was battling in his mind constantly about what the right decision really was but he just couldn't figure it out, and I just sat there patiently waiting and letting myself get lead on for way too long. And my friend just told me, very simply, "you know what? If you really were the one, this should be the easiest decision of his life."

it was great advice for me at the time because even though it seemed so counterintuitive to all the mad relationships issues i had been through in high school and college where it seemed like everything was incredibly complicated and full of drama... but looking back on it it was totally unnecessary drama to work myself up over a guy who wasn't even worth it! and when i found the guy that was worth it, it seemed like everything just clicked into place, coming together naturally like it was meant to be. i recognize that maybe i just got lucky this time and that maintaining a good relationship is a lot of hard work, but i just don't think actually being with a person is supposed to be so hard. If it is, there's something wrong. It just seems to me that if things with this guy are still weird after spending even more time together, maybe you should just keep your eyes open and always be on the lookout for someone who's ready for you that you can feel at ease with and have fun with and continue to grow with. :)
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Post by lance » May 28th 2006, 11:14 pm

Jody Barsch* wrote: In plays and movies that we went to together, he never leaned in to be near me, he would never even touch me except for an occasional and brief pat/rub on the shoulder blade, or for the kiss goodnight. The kisses ranged from pitiful, to awkward, to just gross. I don’t understand; how does a 35 year old, who reportedly was close to getting married once, not know how to kiss?
Oh that's easy enough to explain. My guess is that he probably doesn't have a lot of experience in that department. This has been my 35 year old guy wisdom for you.


Am I afraid to have to rebuild intimacy with someone new? I haven’t been with a huge amount of people, and the few real long-term people I’ve been with, we always seemed to just, I don’t know, be there already. Now, dating new people, I seem impatient for that sense of familiarity. I don’t know if my expectations are unrealistic and I really am being impatient; or if this particular guy just wasn’t a good match, and I’m just over thinking it; or if I’m forgetting what it was actually like building new relationships with past partners; or if this happens to everyone … I’m pretty self-conscious so it takes me a while to feel completely comfortable physically with people, but on the other hand, I’m pretty open and usually form close friendships fairly quickly … I’m just wondering why things didn’t really work out with the guy from work? And if I hadn’t let myself get tempted by my ex, would I have stayed around a little longer and things would have gotten better? My sister and her husband keep telling me that my even being friends with the (ex?)boyfriend is ruining my/our willingness to pursue new relationships. Sometimes I agree, but I mostly feel like I’m passing time with someone I love very much, and with whom I enjoy being. Any thoughts or similar experiences?
Ugh.

(Sigh).

Been thinking about gender relations, a lot recently. My success having not been all that of late. I think it comes down to 2 things:

1) What does your heart tell you to do?

If you genuinely like your ex and are having a good time with him, who cares? Keep having a good time until one or both of you decide you aren't.

2) What are you afraid of and should it get in the way of what you want?

I cannot tell you the number of people who have denied themselves romantic happiness out of fear: fear of abadonment, fear of rejection, fear of committment. It boggles the mind how many people just live their lives in fear. FDR (President Franklin Delano Roosevelt) once said all we had to fear is fear itself. The more I have thought of about dating and romance the more I think he is right.

So Jody I wish you luck, love, happiness and hope that this works out for you.

Best,

LanceMan

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Post by Nothingman » Jun 28th 2006, 6:57 pm

Ah, my favorite thread, and a post from Jody, one of my favorite people here. Sounds like a perfect place to start posting after a long absence. I’m almost afraid, to read some of my old posts on this thread. I still stand by them, but boy was I an angry boy in some of those, but that’s just personal evolution and in neither here nor there, on to Jody’s predicament.

I’ve been dating a new girl for a month after a long period of bachelorhood, and short relationships. So I’m thinking a lot about how a new relationship feels lately. And I’m sure you’re over thinking it as well, because lets face it, that’s why a show about and introspective girl appealed to us. Moving on.

First off, the guy from work, he’s not for you. I could speculate that about all the “what ifs” that I don’t know about the relationship, but in the end it doesn’t matter. Bottom line is he didn’t make you feel the way you want to feel, if he had, you wouldn’t be trying to figure out why you’re not feeling the way you hoped. And of course, there are people out there that can make you feel that way, just not him. Nothing wrong with either of you, the puzzle pieces just don’t fit, don’t force them.

Your current re-tred relationship. I think you’re settling for something safe. The big question here is what is this relationship giving you that you lack on your own? I think it’s more than intimacy and being close to someone. Why do you need someone there to feel complete? You should be able to feel that way on your own. Those are tough questions to answer, but rewarding when you do.

Given my own recent experience on fostering a new relationship, here’s what has stuck out to me. You don’t need to know all the little details about someone, like what their favorite band is to feel intimate with them. If you can trust their intentions to be true, then return that trust and the intimacy will come very quickly. Be 100% in the moment, but don’t make them 100% of your day. They are but a part of your life, and a rather small one in the beginning, but when you are with them, make sure you give them 100% of yourself. Too often people make their new relationship what they are all about, it becomes their new favorite toy and they make is huge part of their life. But then they have buyers remorse, and fear what happens if it fails, so they give less of themselves in an effort to shield themselves from that possible failure. Truth is no healthy person wants to suddenly become someone’s world, it’s too much pressure. And no one who’s risking their emotions as well wants to be with someone who is 60% there with one foot out the door.
"To come to your senses, you must first go out of your mind." - Alan Watts

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