Matrix Revolutions - Bigtime Spoiler Thread

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Matrix Revolutions - Bigtime Spoiler Thread

Post by mglenn » Nov 9th 2003, 5:58 pm

WARNING!!!!!



SPOILERS AHEAD!!!!
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Post by mglenn » Nov 9th 2003, 6:05 pm

See The end of the Reloaded thread for the beginning of this discussion.

Its all spoilers kids so read on at your own risk:








I kinda had a feeling with in the first 10 minutes that I was in for a hurt. There was and exchange between Morphius and "Trin" that just sounded amaturish and forced. The guy behind us actually yelled "Die Already!" during the drawn out death of "Trin". As for the rest lets me just lay out the basic plot holes that I think you could drive 250,000 sentenial through.

1. How did the Oracle end up in a different body, what was the decision that she made that lead to that? I understand the orginal actor died but they spent so much time harping on it and it never made any sence.

2. What did her eyes have to do with anything? and why did you have to give them and not have them taken?

3. Why/How did Neo end up in the train station and then have to be jacked in at the end to fight Smith?

4. How was Neo able to see and effect the machines?

5. What was the point of the little girl? Why were her and her parents in the train staticn? I thought the train station what were you smuggled things out of the matrix.


I was disapointed by this ending. There were just to many issues that were not addressed.
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Post by lance » Nov 10th 2003, 11:25 am

Hey all,

I just saw Matrix: Revolutions. I went in with low expectations. I went in not having seen Matrix: Reloaded. I went in having heard that reviewers had giving it an emphatic thumbs down.

I actually enjoyed it. Decent, some nice action sequences, okay plot. The ending leaves open the possibility for more matrix movies.

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Post by mglenn » Nov 10th 2003, 11:52 pm

Sab posted this guys essay on Reloaded and it was really good. He now has some quick pointers about Revolutions up here and says he'll post another essay specificly about the latest film.
"When I disagree with a rational man, I let reality be our final arbiter; if I am right, he will learn; if I am wrong, I will; one of us will win, but both will profit." - Ayn Rand

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Post by fnordboy » Nov 11th 2003, 1:21 am

mglenn wrote: 1. How did the Oracle end up in a different body, what was the decision that she made that lead to that? I understand the orginal actor died but they spent so much time harping on it and it never made any sence.

2. What did her eyes have to do with anything? and why did you have to give them and not have them taken?

3. Why/How did Neo end up in the train station and then have to be jacked in at the end to fight Smith?

4. How was Neo able to see and effect the machines?

5. What was the point of the little girl? Why were her and her parents in the train staticn? I thought the train station what were you smuggled things out of the matrix.
1. This I really don't know

2. I think this is yet another thing that they brought up but just never explained or fully fleshed out, much like the frenchman. He was an unnecessary part of the trilogy (well last two), he really didn't explain much in the story or add to it in anyway except giving the locale for the gratuitous nudity and titty tweaking for the third installment. Back on topic, the whole I thinkg I have heard from somewhere else I think, but I can not remember where. Maybe it is nothing more than a reference for the audience to further explore. <shrug>

3. I think he ended up there for no other reason than a way to explain some things and to introduce new characters: the girl and the trainman. I think if you can figure out #5 than you might figure out wh he was there. As for why he had to be jacked in at the end, I have no idea, but I think it was just something the Bros. thought was cool. To have Neo lie within the arms of the machines and to have them jack him in, how he worked together with the machines to end the war.

4. IMO they just did not explain this. It started in Reloaded, but was never explained really. As far as his sight, I am figuring it is a third eye reference but don't know why it was necessary for him to be blinded in the first place.

5. I think they actually said in the dialogue that the station was where you smuggle things in and out of the matrix, not just out. but I could be wrong. Once again I don't understand the point of Sati at all. My girlfriend said that they refer to her as "the last exile" in the movie. I am sure this means something but I can't get my head around it. I think they were in the station just to have that dialogue about Love, it seems significant enough, but I don't see why.

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Post by andrewgd » Nov 11th 2003, 8:07 pm

Excellent review of the trilogy as a whole: http://slate.msn.com/id/2090943

I'll go into more of what I thought of it later, but as for your questions:

1. This was explained MUCH better in the video game. The "Merv" (frenchman/merolvingiananiananigian) punished her for helping out Neo. This probably involved taking away the part of her program that made her visible, or whatever. So then she had a new one written ("She must have found a new shell.")

2. I take it as he wanted her foresight. He could probably take them, but he was a bit sadistic anyways, and wanted Morpheus and Trinity to do it for him.

3. He was in the train station because somehow when he effected the machines, it threw his concious back into the matrix. I guess he has a built in 802.11b port in his body, and can jack in without a wire. :P But something about how he got in sent him into a purgatory state, and not into the Matrix itself. And maybe he needed to jack in himself cause he couldn't go directly into the Matrix. Plus I'm sure the Deus Ex Machina wanted to have a bit of control over him.

4. Cause he was "The One", DUH!!!! :roll: (This, and the fact that Smith could get out into a human were really what bothered me...totally unexplainable, other than "Its Maaaajic!!!")

5. The girl was there to explain to us where Neo was in the beginning. As for in the context of the movie...I'm not really sure.

Now, here's my questions:

1. What the heck was the point of this movie? Its purpose was to wrap up what had been set in motion in the second one...yet nothing was really wrapped up.

2. Did Neo kill Smith, or did the Deus Ex Machina kill him, through Neo?

3. Will the humans be content to let billions of other humans be used as batteries, even if they want to stay in the matrix? (I hope they make an Animatrix 2, to fill in all these little holes in the ending.)

4. Is Neo even dead?
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Post by fnordboy » Nov 12th 2003, 1:10 am

andrewgd wrote: 2. I take it as he wanted her foresight. He could probably take them, but he was a bit sadistic anyways, and wanted Morpheus and Trinity to do it for him.
Yeah I understood that but I don't get the "given not taken" part of it.
andrewgd wrote:Now, here's my questions:

1. What the heck was the point of this movie? Its purpose was to wrap up what had been set in motion in the second one...yet nothing was really wrapped up.

2. Did Neo kill Smith, or did the Deus Ex Machina kill him, through Neo?

3. Will the humans be content to let billions of other humans be used as batteries, even if they want to stay in the matrix? (I hope they make an Animatrix 2, to fill in all these little holes in the ending.)

4. Is Neo even dead?
1. Point of the movie? $$$

2. I took it that Neo became one with smith and then destroyed the program from within.

3. See I didn't get this either. I thought it very odd that they ended the movie with just the ending of the war between the humans and the machines. I would think that the residents of Zion would want the rest of the humans be freed from the machines, obviously they only care about their own freedom. Hmm, maybe the Wachowski's were making a political statement about the world today :roll: ...uh, no probably not. ;)

I am fully expecting some sort of continuation of the story in one form or another. They left way too many things open IMO.

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Post by mglenn » Nov 12th 2003, 11:25 am

Ok I haven't really thought this through completely and I have been wrong or at least stood up with things not being explained:

When Neo allowed Smith to "infect" him, he realized that Smith didn't over write but instead integrated with those he touched. And here is the jump... Smith had infected everyone in the matrix and when he integrated Neo into himself he allowed part of Neo's "code" to be integrated into everything in the matrix. Now if we look at this from a mathematic point of view, Neo was an anomaly. He was part of an equation that the Architect could not solve or balance. Now that imbalance has infected every part of the matrix.

What does any of this mean? Well, Neo is human but with machine code from "the source", so now the machines that Smith had infected have human code in them and the people in the matrix have at least parts of Neo's power provided to them. In the end this makes the machines and the humans more alike and less different to each other. I believe that the Oracle saw this as the only way to bring the two sides closer together.

None of this explains the way the Frenchman is displayed. To me he seems to loath Neo. To truly hate someone like that you have to see yourself in him or her. Which along with Persephone’s comments, in reloaded, about how the Frenchman "use to be like you" to Neo, makes me think that the Frenchman was an earlier version of Neo. Hell even his name says it, as The Merovingian is supposedly a descendant of Christ, which Neo is clearly portrayed as in the first film.

I would even wager a guess that the Trainman is another version of Neo from even early version of the matrix as he was able to create an area that he alone controlled. After making the decision to save Zion he retreated to this "train station" in solitude and brooded for years about it with lead to him being absolutely nuts. The Merovingian was closer to Neo in understanding the decision and handled it with more anger. And by controlling the Keymaker not allowing future Neo's to even make the same decision, let alone the one he was not strong enough to make.

This brings in the mythology surrounding Persephone where Hades “God of the Underworld” abducted her. Hmm sounds like the Merovingian to me. But she later had to be "released". Hmm sounds like letting someone die. But she returns to Hades for six months a year. We break down a bit here, but is it so hard to believe that the Machines would give him back his love for making the decision that rebalances the equation. Or maybe what they gave him was only a copy of his love and what they understood of her. Which could explain why he doesn't give her the attention she desires.

Here's another issue that just hit me while proofing this. In the first film Morpheus talks about the one that freed the first of them and how he could change things in the Matrix. We are told that if you want to get something into or out of the Matrix the Merovingian is whom you have to see, in the latest film. Once again this is another link to him being a previous version of The One. Whether he just made the decisions of who to free or helped them to get out is a bit of a mute point to me.
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Post by Nothingman » Nov 12th 2003, 11:48 am

Since seeing Revolutions I have gone back and rewatched Reloaded and it’s bonus features. And the more I think about it the more it makes sense to evaluate them as just one big movie. They were shot as one movie, and that’s why they have been released so close together. They were never meant to be 2 complete works, they are simply two chapters to a story. Think of it this way. Lord of the Rings is three books made into three movies. The Matrix, if it were books, would only be two. Yet, there are three movies because there is simply too much to put in a two hour movie.



mglenn wrote:1.How did the Oracle end up in a different body, what was the decision that she made that lead to that? I understand the orginal actor died but they spent so much time harping on it and it never made any sence.

2. What did her eyes have to do with anything? and why did you have to give them and not have them taken?

3. Why/How did Neo end up in the train station and then have to be jacked in at the end to fight Smith?

4. How was Neo able to see and effect the machines?

5. What was the point of the little girl? Why were her and her parents in the train staticn? I thought the train station what were you smuggled things out of the matrix.
1. This is unexplained in the movie, but it is explained in the game. The game has an hour of addition movie footage on top of digital scenes and the game itself. Included in that footage is the explanation of why the oracle changed form. Remember this is the first story to be told in multimedia, there is more to the matrix story than just the movies. I have not played the game, though I must admit I’m tempted to buy an Xbox just to do it. Consequently, I cannot answer the question fully, but I believe it has something to do with the “choices” she has made and Neo not choosing the “restart” door.


2. The oracle’s eyes allow her to see the future, or the world without time as she puts it. That is a great power which is why the Frenchman wants them. The Frenchman himself represents the worst of the programs in the matrix as well as the machines drive for more power and conquest. He is a representative for the will of the machines and their desires, only in a version that is inside the matrix. He has power and is free thinking, something the agents(or sentinels in the real world) do not. He may not appear to have a large influence on the plot but he represents much of what the machines are all about.

The oracle later gives her eyes to Smith which helps contribute to his undoing. He can’t see past the choices he doesn’t understand, which is why he believed he had won when he hadn’t. The oracle also could not understand why she had to give her powers to Smith, she only knew that was what she was here to do. Consequently she couldn’t see past that choice to see if Neo would win.

3&4. From what I can gather, Neo is able to affect the machines because he has moved into a higher state of consciousness that allows him to see the machines as energies, just as humans are, only contained in a different vessel. Smith touches on this as how he was able to infect Bane, and I think that is the key to understanding how Neo affects the machines. Another key is when Neo is blinded he can’t see nonliving objects like the Logos, but he can see Trinity, Bane/Smith, and the machines. I believe they are making the point that consciousness, spirit, or whatever you want to label a living thing’s orah, is universal regardless whether it is contained in a machine or a human body.

The train station is not part of the matrix, it is a place between the real world and the matrix world. When Neo is saved from the train station and is brought back to the real world he is jacked in to a chair. Though we never see them move his body from the table to the chair, we are left to assume in order to get him out the matrix once he leaves the train station he must be jacked in. Therefore, Neo still must be connected at the end of the movie to battle Smith.

5. The train station appears to be the machines way of hacking into the matrix. They are able to upload their consciousness from the real world to the matrix and visa versa. I believe that is what smuggling is. All throughout the movie we are seeing things twice. Usually if we see the humans doing interacting with the matrix in some way, there is a machine version hidden in there as well. It’s all part of the parallel between man and machine.

Sati is the “the last exile” and is a huge part of the ending, not just a little girl to give candy to. She exists only because her parents love her, she has no “purpose” or job beyond that. That is huge, prior to this the machines and programs only existed to fill a need or oversee the operation of something. She is also a result of emotion on the part of the machines. Her parents LOVE her. I believe that she represents the next evolutionary step for the machines A.I. A step that will ultimately lead to peace between humans and machines. Her parents have made a deal so that she can exist in the matrix without deletion, that is where they are taking her.

I'm sure I'll understand it better as time goes on, but hopefully this starts to answer your questions.
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Post by mglenn » Nov 13th 2003, 1:07 pm

Nothingman wrote:1. This is unexplained in the movie, but it is explained in the game. The game has an hour of addition movie footage on top of digital scenes and the game itself. Included in that footage is the explanation of why the oracle changed form. Remember this is the first story to be told in multimedia, there is more to the matrix story than just the movies. I have not played the game, though I must admit I’m tempted to buy an Xbox just to do it. Consequently, I cannot answer the question fully, but I believe it has something to do with the “choices” she has made and Neo not choosing the “restart” door.
And I see this as a huge part of the reason that this franchise failed and will be remembered as the films that could have been. Hey maybe like the matrix this is just the first version and we can suffer through 4 move versions before they get it right? You can not lock up a major portion of you plot inside a game. First you expect me to pay $30+ to see each movie, and then pay $50+ to get the connections so I can understand the the films? I don't think so!!!
Nothingman wrote:2. The oracle’s eyes allow her to see the future, or the world without time as she puts it. That is a great power which is why the Frenchman wants them. The Frenchman himself represents the worst of the programs in the matrix as well as the machines drive for more power and conquest. He is a representative for the will of the machines and their desires, only in a version that is inside the matrix. He has power and is free thinking, something the agents(or sentinels in the real world) do not. He may not appear to have a large influence on the plot but he represents much of what the machines are all about.
That would all be great if they ever explained if he was a machine or not. I think they hinted way to hard that he was not and then never told us either way. Second its great that the Oracle's eyes have such power, but WHY does he want them???? Just because, is not a valid answer. If he is a "program" from the machine world, why doesn't he go to the source to get the same power? After all the Oracle had to be created by another machine right, to study the human nature if I remember correctly from the Architects speach?


Nothingman wrote:3&4. From what I can gather, Neo is able to affect the machines because he has moved into a higher state of consciousness that allows him to see the machines as energies, just as humans are, only contained in a different vessel. Smith touches on this as how he was able to infect Bane, and I think that is the key to understanding how Neo affects the machines. Another key is when Neo is blinded he can’t see nonliving objects like the Logos, but he can see Trinity, Bane/Smith, and the machines. I believe they are making the point that consciousness, spirit, or whatever you want to label a living thing’s orah, is universal regardless whether it is contained in a machine or a human body.
Oh I understand that, but the issue is that most people in the western parts of the world do not. If you want to use eastern philosophy as a major plot point you need to explain it and bridge the understanding gap. Neo was shown gaining this enlightenment in the first movie, but that was bridged by showing it as a hero's journey and in some respect the christ story. But in the last two movies that journey is just tossed asside and forgotten and we are left to try and follow a philosophical journey we don't understand. And I also believe that Neo's journey was not covered as well instead they opted to focus more on the "human condition" part of the story and make some statements there. Its the same reason that Return of the Jedi did not measure up to the the previous stories. They forgot that the story was a hero's journey that should be told and instead gave us ewoks (people of zion) and showed how they fought off their evil oppressors(sentinals/machines). The same holds true for the Star Wars prequels in that they are trying to tell a hero's journey plot. Except theres a major issue the hero's going to go bad and everyone knows it. And thats not a story people are looking for.
Nothingman wrote:The train station is not part of the matrix, it is a place between the real world and the matrix world. When Neo is saved from the train station and is brought back to the real world he is jacked in to a chair. Though we never see them move his body from the table to the chair, we are left to assume in order to get him out the matrix once he leaves the train station he must be jacked in. Therefore, Neo still must be connected at the end of the movie to battle Smith.
Hmm could it be a "construct" running on an old hovercraft hidden since a reboot of the matrix.... you see where this could go? Its all about Neo and where he came from and facing the choices he made. Why is it that in showing that the choices that the previous versions of The One made didn't work out for them and that Neo must make a different one, such a bad thing. Neo must still face the possiblity that he will fail to overcome Smith and the matrix and humanity will be destroyed. Neo's journey is the point of the story that we the audience wants to see. The Hammer and the kid and Zee and her shooter and everything else thats had nothing to do with Neo, thats the stuff that should be in the game and the bounus material. Sure it fleshes out the world and gives it depth but its had no bearing on Neo at all.

Nothingman wrote:Sati is the “the last exile” and is a huge part of the ending, not just a little girl to give candy to. She exists only because her parents love her, she has no “purpose” or job beyond that. That is huge, prior to this the machines and programs only existed to fill a need or oversee the operation of something. She is also a result of emotion on the part of the machines. Her parents LOVE her. I believe that she represents the next evolutionary step for the machines A.I. A step that will ultimately lead to peace between humans and machines. Her parents have made a deal so that she can exist in the matrix without deletion, that is where they are taking her.
Yes but how is she any different that the Frenchman's body guards? They are old versions of agents that have no purpose now. Her parents expressing emotion? What about Smiths talking to Morphous in the first film. He certainly had feelings to express on humanity and the matrix. The Oracle had lots of feelings too. So Sati's parents are willing to risk their lives to save her. How is that different than the Oracle risking her life to save all of humanity and machines? In my opinion the whole thing made Neo appear weak. Look at the fact that he had to see the Oracle within Smith before he allowed himself to be taken over. He had to be shown the way first before he would act. He was already more powerful than anything in the Matrix, ie. gravity, agents and even death. He was even able to control machines outside the matrix. Yet Smith, who was only that powerful because of code from Neo, was able to beat him down, and yet Neo was not able to see that he was only fighting himself until someone else showed him.
Nothingman wrote:I'm sure I'll understand it better as time goes on, but hopefully this starts to answer your questions.
What it leads me to believe is that I should begin start writing more because I think I can do better than this. But hey thanks for the comments I do enjoy the discussion.
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Post by Nothingman » Nov 13th 2003, 1:52 pm

mglenn wrote:What it leads me to believe is that I should begin start writing more because I think I can do better than this. But hey thanks for the comments I do enjoy the discussion
I hope your mallace is towards the Wachowski brothers writing, and not mine. When I first read it, I thought you were attacking me.
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Post by mglenn » Nov 13th 2003, 2:55 pm

Ya... it was towards them... I apologize for that. I am just getting more and more fired up over how badly the ball was dropped on what could have been a great story. Sorry for the confusion.
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Post by Nothingman » Feb 13th 2004, 1:06 pm

Warner Home Video has unveiled the release date and specs for the still-fairly-anticipated DVD. The DVD streets on April 6th, and will feature the following, well, features.


Revolutions Recalibrated - A behind-the-scenes overview that drills deep into the groundbreaking work that went into the final chapter.


CG Revolution - Explore the special effects arsenal and take an inside look at the making of the creatures and environs of the CGI-intensive third movie.


Super Burly Brawl - A crash course on the final Neo/Smith showdown with three multiple video streams: storyboards, behind-the-scenes and the final scene all running in sync.


Follow the White Rabbit - Watch the special features and select the White Rabbit icon to go further into the making of the film.


Neo Realism: The Evolution of Bullet Time - A closer look at how "Bullet Time" was taken to the next degree of madness.


Super Big Mini Models - The intricacies of filming in the world of models and miniatures.


Double Agent Smith - A look at what it took to make this incredible scene, including the work to replicate Hugo Weaving, with body doubles, lifelike mannequins, head casts and costumes.


Mind Over Matter: The Physicality of "The Matrix" - A look at what it takes for the actors and stunt people to perform the dramatic stunts of "The Matrix."


Future Gamer "The Matrix Online" - An introduction to the massive multi-player game "The Matrix Online," created by the Wachowski Brothers.


3-D Evolution - Transition to different levels of the Matrix to view concept art, storyboards, pre-visualizations and realizations for several elements in "Revolutions"


Before the Revolution - 3-D timeline of the concurrent story development occurring in the Matrix between the "Matrix" trilogy, "The Animatrix," and "Enter the Matrix."


Theatrical Trailer - Weblinks to the official "Matrix" website and "The Matrix Online" test site
The cover art is pretty weak, you can check it out here:http://www.dvdtown.com/coverart/Matrix_ ... esc/11626/
"To come to your senses, you must first go out of your mind." - Alan Watts

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