Haliburton News

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JPP13
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Haliburton News

Post by JPP13 » May 31st 2003, 3:46 pm

Haliburton, the company thats in the pocket of Dick Cheney and vice-versa, the very company that had previously been fined by the Clinton Administration for doing business illegally with Iran and Iraq, and the same company that avoided doing its Patriotic Duty by not paying taxes, was awarded the Iraq oil contract last week.

This is altogether different than the clean up contract that Cheneys boys were already awarded. Haliburton was very quietly given the contract for Iraqi oil. This is worth billions. The Right Wing Media was again silent on the issue, I guess because no one involved got a blow job. Though the rest of us certainly got screwed.

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Post by starbug » Jun 2nd 2003, 5:00 am

Why am I not surprised?
This makes the Bush administration look like the big stinking liars they are. All the people who argued (rightly in my view) that this was about oil not terrorism are now looking like they were completely correct. I just cannot believe the audacity of the Bush administration :twisted: . How can they now say that the overriding reason for this war was 'WMD' or 'Free the Iraqi people'?

More like for the fiscal benefit of the richest 5% in the USA.

WMD? - I don't think so. Do they really expect me to buy this line that the WMDs were conveniently 'destroyed' before the war began? Ha. It breaks my heart that Prime Minister Bleugh is blindly expecting the UK to follow his lead on this one too.

'Free the Iraqi People?' - Questionable to start with. But now - they don't look that free to me. Occupying forces... contracts for the oil they own given to the same nation whose government controls those occupying forces... basic amenities still not up and running... on a side note I find it amazing that the same countries who can spend $untold billions on developing missiles, nuclear weapons, Joint Strike Fighters etc cannot get simple medical aid, food and water to a people they have disrupted in a timely manner. They knew this war was coming. They had their military operation down pat. Why not the food? Medicines?

I include my disgust with Tony Blair and his equally hypocritical, patronising and dictatorial government in this post. I will not be voting for them in the next general election. Which leaves me in a catch 22. I cannot bring myself to vote conservative. I have to vote (coz I'm like that) and that leaves me with one other party which, while having laudable aims, hasn't really got any policy that's remotely concrete, and they've never been in government before.

:twisted: :twisted: Excuse my diatribe this morning. It's Monday, my boss is pissing me off, and I need to vent. :twisted:

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lance
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Post by lance » Jun 2nd 2003, 9:14 am

JPP13:

"Preach it!"

Starbug:

"Testify!"

Man, you guys are preaching to the choir! You are absolutely correct. The Bush Administration kept hammering away at WMD, they have them let's invade! Where are they? Nobody knows.

So why did thousands of Iraqi, over a hundred American and British soliders have to die?

Can you say re-election? I can. Oh wait, he was never elected.

My bad, let me try again.

Can you say re-selection? I can.

Since the US and UK "won" the war. Nine more American Service people have lost their lives, dozens wounded. When will this end? When will the troops come home? How many more young men and women have to die for the avarice of a few.

Starbug, you rant on.

Best,

Lance Man

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Post by mglenn » Jun 2nd 2003, 9:51 am

lance wrote:Man, you guys are preaching to the choir!
And apparently I'm the one guy thats always outta tune! :D
lance wrote:...WMD, they have them let's invade! Where are they?
http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.j ... wstop.html

Oh and then there's the fact that every intel agency in the world believed that they had them (Were they all wrong? What does it mean if they were?). Remember the Weapons Inspectors? If the world didn't believe they were there why were the inspectors there?
lance wrote:I can. Oh wait, he was never elected.
Please show me the recount that he lost. And don't give me popular election, if you don't understand the electoral college please check out the federalist papers for reasons why we use it.
lance wrote:When will this end? When will the troops come home?
<sarcasm>I want it now! Now! Now! Now! Everything I see on tv is wrapped up in an hour, why hasn't this? </sarcasm>

Its been seven weeks. It will take years to change the middle east and bring them into the same world we live in. But I'm guessing we have no right to bring them out of their oppressive social structure....
"When I disagree with a rational man, I let reality be our final arbiter; if I am right, he will learn; if I am wrong, I will; one of us will win, but both will profit." - Ayn Rand

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Post by starbug » Jun 2nd 2003, 10:07 am

lance wrote: Starbug, you rant on.
:D thanks Lance!

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Post by starbug » Jun 2nd 2003, 10:26 am

mglenn wrote:
lance wrote:Man, you guys are preaching to the choir!
And apparently I'm the one guy thats always outta tune! :D
:D You know, mglenn, this forum just wouldn't be the same unless you were slightly to the right of Genghis Khan :wink: I'm kidding... it's always good to hear opposing points of view.
I just can't wait for the next 'dossier'. Did you read the last shameful publication from our government? Filched from an out of date phd thesis and containing absolutely no information other than a ramped-up 45 minute to impact threat... I read the whole thing. It told me nothing. Frankly, unless he's going to come up with some cold hard facts I'm still of the opinion there wasn't the evidence to justify war. Clare Short has a point and is widely regarded (even among opposition) as a woman who despite a fiery temper and loose mouth, has more integrity in her little finger than most of the rest of the Labour party.
mglenn wrote: Oh and then there's the fact that every intel agency in the world believed that they had them (Were they all wrong? What does it mean if they were?). Remember the Weapons Inspectors? If the world didn't believe they were there why were the inspectors there?
if 99 people believe that 1+1=5, does that make it the truth? Not necessarily. Present me with some evidence that 1+1=5 and then we can have a discussion about it. I don't go with 'faith', 'confidence' and 'every indication' when it comes to war.
mglenn wrote:
lance wrote:When will this end? When will the troops come home?
<sarcasm>I want it now! Now! Now! Now! Everything I see on tv is wrapped up in an hour, why hasn't this? </sarcasm>
I have to say that I'm less concerned about the troops coming home than the Iraqi people getting the help they need in terms of food, water and medicine. I want the US and the UK to spend the money required to keep the troops there long enough to get Iraq on its feet. But that doesn't mean swaggering around giving lucrative contracts for Iraqi oil to American big business. I don't expect this to happen overnight. I'm just disgusted that simple basic infrastructure is taking so long to set up, yet massive oil contracts can be concluded in a matter of weeks.
mglenn wrote: But I'm guessing we have no right to bring them out of their oppressive social structure....
You're correct, we have no right to do that. We can view it as a moral obligation to 'free' the Iraqi people but you simply don't have the 'right' to steam into another country, disrupt it, take their most valuable commodity and give it to US big business.

Even if I gave the benefit of the doubt to the US government on every point, just think what this looks like to Iraqi civilians. Think of the boot being on the other foot. Dictatorships and fascism run the world but the US holds on to its democratic ideals, though it's in the minority in its point of view and not a rich country with big firepower. Suddenly, a few big powerful nations decide that you've been doing something bad. They have no proof they can show you or anyone else. They invade the US and steal its resources, saying they are going to smash evil democracy and 'free' the US citizens from the grasp of the evil dictator Bush. They say they are going to help you get back on your feet in the new ideal of facism, and then they draw up a contract giving your most valuable asset to businesses in their country.

I'm sorry, I just don't understand how you can defend what the US is doing.

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lance
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Post by lance » Jun 2nd 2003, 10:31 am

mglenn wrote:
lance wrote:Man, you guys are preaching to the choir!
And apparently I'm the one guy thats always outta tune! :D
lance wrote:...WMD, they have them let's invade! Where are they?
http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.j ... wstop.html

Oh and then there's the fact that every intel agency in the world believed that they had them (Were they all wrong? What does it mean if they were?). Remember the Weapons Inspectors? If the world didn't believe they were there why were the inspectors there?
lance wrote:I can. Oh wait, he was never elected.
Please show me the recount that he lost. And don't give me popular election, if you don't understand the electoral college please check out the federalist papers for reasons why we use it.
lance wrote:When will this end? When will the troops come home?
<sarcasm>I want it now! Now! Now! Now! Everything I see on tv is wrapped up in an hour, why hasn't this? </sarcasm>

Its been seven weeks. It will take years to change the middle east and bring them into the same world we live in. But I'm guessing we have no right to bring them out of their oppressive social structure....
Dude,

Check out the following link, entitled "CIA Politics".

http://discover.npr.org/rundowns/rundow ... ay/30/2003

Intelligence officals told Bush that Iraq didn't have WMD and if he did they were no longer effective due to their limited shelf life.

The Supreme Court intervened on Bush's behalf in 2000, so will they do so again 2004?

Best,

Lance Man

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Post by starbug » Jun 2nd 2003, 10:51 am

And another thing (sorry)!

If there is all this evidence for WMDs, why on earth don't two of the most important people who were in the cabinet (UK) and closest to the PM know anything about it? Claire Short and Robin Cook. Claire Short ran the Department for International Development who, you would think, would be heavily involved in rebuilding Iraq after a war. Her expertise in this area is well-known. Now surely, Blair would have gone to her and said 'look Claire, here's a convincing case for why we need to do this and I need you to set aside £x million to deal with it.' She should be fully versed in the facts.

Robin Cook, ex-Foreign Minister, long-time ally of the PM. Why didn't he know all about the evidence for the WMDs?

why are these two people now coming out (following their resignations) and saying 'hang on, where is the evidence?'. Why, if it existed, wouldn't Blair at the very least show it to his own Cabinet? That's sort of like Bush saying 'I believe we need to go to war' but refusing to show his evidence to Colin Powell, Cheney and the rest.

:evil:

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Post by fnordboy » Jun 2nd 2003, 10:58 am

lance wrote: The Supreme Court intervened on Bush's behalf in 2000, so will they do so again 2004?

Best,

Lance Man
Actually I doubt they will need to. The majority of this country praise this crook now. He did a great thing, some buildings fall down, wage war with no real world backing, bomb the s**t out of them till we "win"....yet I still don't see Saddam or Osama's heads on sticks hmmmm, and best of all he gave the majority of his voters a nice tax cut. Of course if you are poor and democrat you won't be seeing much...ooops :oops:

He is a shoe in next election. The Democratic candidates are a friggin joke. It is a sad election where the best people running are either Al Sharpton or Hillary Clinton (if she does, which i doubt till 2008). Scary :shock:

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Post by mglenn » Jun 2nd 2003, 11:52 am

Once again everyone was sayin that we just needed to give the Inspectors more time to find the WMD's before the war. Now suddenly we have not not found them, cause as it was pointed out we are still fighting the reminents of the regime, they must not be there. Huh??? In a country were 99% of the populus live in less than 1% of the land of the country, which we are still trying to get total control of, and we are suprised that we have not gotten out to the desert and looked for the hidden bunkers that are almost certainly there.

Its yet more of our instant gratification issue. We are so use to having everything we want given to us so fast that when it takes longer than a day we get upset....

The whole food and water thing is yet another example. That started within three days of the US establishing control of Baghdad. Walmarts arn't build in a day or two.. it takes several months. But once they are built then you can use what they provide. The same thing will happen in Iraq. Al-Queda-mart will not be there instantly :D ! But once its there things will be better.

Now as for the Oil. How many companies are there in the world that are big enough to handle rebuilding Iraqs Oil industry? Especially as fast as all of you seems that it should happen? I submit that there are really three. One, Haliburton a US company. Two, A french company that competes with Haliburton (Sorry the name escapes me right now). Surprise... The US didn't award the biggest contract in rebuilding Iraq to a French Company. Three, OPEC. OPEC a conglomerate(sp?) of middle east oil princes. Yet another surprise that we didn't give the contract to the exactly the same group that is responcible for the state of the middle east in the first place.
....yet I still don't see Saddam or Osama's heads on sticks
And yet you can't appreciate that neither of them has their network of power that they had when we started this. Sure I'm with ya, I'd love to see their heads on a pike, but I understand that it takes more than one person to mount an effective attack. As it stands now both are on the run and using want resources they have to stay hidden and not to plan attacks on the US.
nice tax cut. Of course if you are poor and democrat you won't be seeing much...ooops
Ok let me get this straight...The poor pay no taxes because they earn very little. And yet you get upset because the, as you call them, "rich" people of this country who pay 96.09% of the taxes are getting some of "THEIR" money back.
http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/menu/t ... guest.html

Please explain to me how giving free money to those that have not earned it will improve our economy?

People need to stop bein jeolous of what everyone else has... if you want it go earn it!!!

Please don't take it personally I'm just getting riled up! :twisted:
"When I disagree with a rational man, I let reality be our final arbiter; if I am right, he will learn; if I am wrong, I will; one of us will win, but both will profit." - Ayn Rand

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Post by starbug » Jun 2nd 2003, 12:23 pm

mglenn wrote: Now as for the Oil. How many companies are there in the world that are big enough to handle rebuilding Iraqs Oil industry? Especially as fast as all of you seems that it should happen? I submit that there are really three. One, Haliburton a US company. Two, A french company that competes with Haliburton (Sorry the name escapes me right now). Surprise... The US didn't award the biggest contract in rebuilding Iraq to a French Company. Three, OPEC. OPEC a conglomerate(sp?) of middle east oil princes. Yet another surprise that we didn't give the contract to the exactly the same group that is responcible for the state of the middle east in the first place.
I think my point is that the US shouldn't be 'awarding' the job to anybody. It should have gone through some kind of independent joint committee or something, open tender, competition and free market. Isn't this an integral part of the free society we all want? It may well be that Haliburton is the best qualified (though it sticks in my throat to say that) but that should be determined by an open enquiry; it might be that the French company were the best. In terms of rebuilding Iraq, past political differences shouldn't mean the US doesn't 'award' the oil contract to them: what matters should be what is best for the Iraqi people. Yes this would take more time but no the world isn't going to fall apart without Iraqi oil for a few more weeks.

I still think it stinks that the Bush administration are like 'we're going to award' - bah.

2 phrases spring to mind:
res ipsa loquitor
and
nemo dat quod non habet.

'the facts speak for themselves'
and
'you cannot give better title than you have'. Who said the Iraqi oil belonged to the US to determine what happens to rebuilding the industry... unless they admit they are in fact an 'occupying force' surely they're on shaky ground there too...

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bush

Post by lance » Jun 2nd 2003, 12:58 pm

Here is a follow up link for you:

http://www.counterpunch.org/vips02082003.html

This includes a letter by a group called, "Veteran Intelligence Agents for Sanity" to the President. Take a look, see what you think.

Best,

Lance Man

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mglenn
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Post by mglenn » Jun 2nd 2003, 1:33 pm

Lance, interesting article, but as soon as they made the argument for containment it lost its crediblity with me. Containment did not work with Hitler, Did not work with N. Vietnam, has not worked with Cuba, and certainly isn't working with N. Korea. And yet this same site tries to convince you that Bush is as bad if not worse than Hitler... One side or the other folks... one side or the other.

I moved fnordboys post and my response to A New Tax Discussion.
"When I disagree with a rational man, I let reality be our final arbiter; if I am right, he will learn; if I am wrong, I will; one of us will win, but both will profit." - Ayn Rand

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Post by fnordboy » Jun 2nd 2003, 1:43 pm

mglenn wrote:I moved fnordboys post and my response to A New Tax Discussion.
Actually I think you may have lost yours. Don't see it over in the new thread.

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mglenn
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Post by mglenn » Jun 2nd 2003, 2:37 pm

Sorry, had to work on my real job and was delayed in posting... :D
"When I disagree with a rational man, I let reality be our final arbiter; if I am right, he will learn; if I am wrong, I will; one of us will win, but both will profit." - Ayn Rand

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