Discussion for Episode 19: In Dreams Begin Responsibilities

General discussion about the nineteen episodes of "My So-Called Life". Note: Our episode guide can be found here.
MonnyUK2
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Re: Discussion for Episode 19: In Dreams Begin Responsibilities

Post by MonnyUK2 » Feb 5th 2008, 5:15 am

Hey everybody! I'm afriad I couyldn't let this subject go and not have my 50 cent worth or 2 pennies worth as we say in the UK.lol! I totally agree with what everybody has said so far. I thought I would offer a male perspective. I was 15 when MSCL first aired in the UK. I was so much like Brian it is not true, although I was less of a nerd.lol! How many of us men are as confident with women as Jordan at that age? Even now? Getting those feelings across when you fall for someone can be the most hardest thing in the world because you fear rejection and humiliation.

Jordan is the kind of guy we all want to be. Good looking, confident and has the pick of any woman. I don't know if it is to do with the way we are socialised or something but we do have two extremes here. I think that Jordan and Brian would have got closer through the tutoring and both growing as their learn new skills from the other. Brian learning how to be more confident with girls and Jordan in the academic sense. In eposode 19 we see evidence of this in terms of Brian kind of opening up to Angela and Jordan using the word 'ironic'.

I think both of them would have grown and in the end Angela would have seen things in both of them that she desired.

I think Angela had no choice but to go with Jordan but I think her relationship with Brian would have taken on a different turn and he would become her shoulder to cry on whilst him still craving her. All we can do is specualte anyway and In guess all of us having our say after so long shows how much we still love this show. I am currently watching it for the 100th time, lol! after I received the DVD box set.

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Jody Barsch*
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Re: Discussion for Episode 19: In Dreams Begin Responsibilities

Post by Jody Barsch* » Feb 7th 2008, 12:20 am

MonnyUK2 wrote:Jordan using the word 'ironic'.
Oh Catalano, such a proud moment :mrgreen:
MonnyUK2 wrote:I think Angela had no choice but to go with Jordan
That's a good way of putting it...

While watching that last scene, I always get caught up on watching Brian look more at Jordan than he does at Angela. In my mind he's trying to decide whether Jordan, for lack of a better word, deserves Angela; not an odd thing to be thinking considering he knows he's responsible for Jordan getting Angela back.
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Re: Discussion for Episode 19: In Dreams Begin Responsibilities

Post by MonnyUK2 » Feb 7th 2008, 9:33 am

Jody,
I get caught up watching that last scene in microscopic detail. I never quite thought that Brian would be looking at Jordan in that way,lol! I don't know if Jordan deserves Angela but I don't think she had time to reflect on what Brian had or had not told her as the case may be. Obviously that reflection would have come in further episodes. That scene always upsets me but I keep watching it again and again just in case iin some parallel universe ABC had decided not to cancel the show and we could have seen what happened after. I find myself watching Angela's interactions with Brain through out the series. From the argument with him in 'Why Jordan Can't Read' to the nice moment they have at the end of the same episode (that smile she gives him when she tells Brian she doesn't know how it feels to be in love is wonderful) and at the end of 'Strangers in the House'. There also many other episodes such as the pilot and 'Life of Brian'. I am always amazed at the extremes. One minute they are arguing saying the most horruble things and then they act like nothing has happened in the past. I really feel Angela had a soft spot for Brian but because of the way he was she was waiting for him to grow up. This growing up process had begun at the end of the last episode. I like to think that they would have had a romantic moment in future episodes. I still say it now after all this time that I really wish they had carried this show on as it feels still feels something has been taken away.

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Mutajon
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Re: Discussion for Episode 19: In Dreams Begin Responsibilit

Post by Mutajon » Jul 16th 2011, 5:06 am

This may have been discussed before (did a quick search and found nothing), but who is the woman we see in Tony's bike mirror (in Patty's dream)?
Context wise, it seems it should be dream-Patty but to me it looks like a different woman (I guess it could be her if the mirror isn't perfect and is distorting her facial features)... Thoughts?
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Superjesus
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Re: Discussion for Episode 19: In Dreams Begin Responsibilit

Post by Superjesus » Jul 16th 2011, 10:29 am

Good question. I would think it's just a younger Patty through a strange mirror.

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Re: Discussion for Episode 19: In Dreams Begin Responsibilit

Post by Mutajon » Jul 16th 2011, 4:29 pm

Superjesus wrote:Good question. I would think it's just a younger Patty through a strange mirror.
That's actually a great idea. I think you're right...!
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Re: Discussion for Episode 19: In Dreams Begin Responsibilit

Post by Superjesus » Jul 17th 2011, 1:37 am

Thought she looks a lot like how a younger, fully blonde Patty might look.

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Re: Discussion for Episode 19: In Dreams Begin Responsibilit

Post by RCBS » Aug 11th 2011, 7:28 am

More nachos.
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Re: Discussion for Episode 19: In Dreams Begin Responsibilit

Post by BuffaloLawnmower » Sep 20th 2011, 5:56 am

Jody Barsch* wrote:Anway, Graham is sexy, not just his looks, but his humor, his kindness, his attitude, I love him.
-agreed. I also agree with the theory that Graham may be wondering what it would have been like to be considered desirable or attractive when he was younger. I also feel that Patty really is very critical of him (and critical in general); while this is necessary at times, I can't help but notice that Graham really seems to feel rejected and unappreciated. Hallie Lowenthal would have her own flaws and faults, but she doesn't have the same critical nature as Patty. I think that Graham is definitely tempted to stray, but, as shown by how he doesn't kiss Hallie and how he doesn't go along with meeting up with that other woman earlier in the series, I think that he has self-control and knows what he would lose if he did that. I personally don't believe that he has ever cheated, judging from his conversation with Neil about it: it seems like that this was the first time that he even came close. He also asks Neil to talk him out of it. So, I don't think that Graham really wants to cheat. I think that he wants Patty to be proud of him and he wants to feel valued.

******
grim4746 wrote: So if Jordan ened up like Patty and Brian ended up like Graham would they live happily ever after or would a clean and sober Rayanne storm in full of Hallie Lowenthalesque charm and steal Brian away? :D
--Personally, I do want Brian to end up with Rayanne. I feel like they need each other. Rayanne would benefit from Brian's compassion, sensitivity, and stability. Brian would benefit from Rayanne's free spirit. Rayanne could loosen Brian up; Brian could help Rayanne become more grounded. I think that he would really look out for her and care for her. In the episode "Halloween", it's stated that Brian's hobby is photography and that he "notices things". Rayanne lives to be noticed. I definitely think that Brian is attracted to Rayanne, at least physically, judging from the way that he looks at her. As of the last episode, he does seem put off by how she treats him. However, look how Rayanne and Sharon ended up as friends--real friends. I think that maybe the same thing could happen for Rayanne and Brian. I hope that it would, and that it would work out. I think that their relationship, if they had one, would definitely be stormy and intense at times, and that it might be volatile. However, that's not to say that they couldn't make it work in the end--just that they'd go through a lot first. Regardless of how their relationship ended (or didn't end), though, I think that it would really change both of them and help them both mature and evolve in good ways.

****

More and more as I re-watch the show, Angela is my least favorite character. She's the most loved out of any of the characters on the show, but she is the least loving, and doesn't really appreciate love at this point. To be fair, I do have to keep reminding myself to judge her by a 15-year-old standard and not by a standard of someone my age (about ten years older). She does have her good points. However, how she treats people really bothers me, and I hope that she would grow out of it. It bugs me that she can't forgive Rayanne, but she can forgive Jordan (though I do have hope that she could forgive her someday, as Camille forgave Patty for the same thing). I know the pain of doing something incredibly stupid and not being able to take it back, so I can feel for Rayanne and see her side of things. Plus, it's not like Jordan and Angela were together, so it wasn't like there was cheating involved--yes, it was a huge violation of "Girl Code", but to me, Rayanne really seemed to mature from the experience. She truly cares that she hurt someone that she loves. It also is a "headdesk" moment for me when she STILL goes with Jordan, even after knowing everything. Now, I wouldn't expect her to go with Brian. I don't really think that they would be good together. But really, it frustrates me that she's so willing to take Jordan back, though it IS pretty realistic.

However, I don't really know that she could still think of him the same way, knowing that he didn't write the letter and that Brian did. I kind of think that, after she got in the car, she either (a) got physical with Jordan to take her mind off of it, though not necessarily with sex; I'm thinking more like making out or (b) things were a bit cool and tense. I know that she's understanding about Jordan's reading problem, and that she'd appreciate that Jordan was trying to tell her the truth, but I don't know...it just seems like things would be different somehow.

**

Lastly, I'm really proud of Rickie for openly saying that he is gay. I'm proud of him for starting to accept who he is, and I feel that Mr. Katimsky was probably a good positive role model for him. (Mr. Katimsky is one of my favorite secondary characters in the series). I am frustrated with Delia, though, for not being able to forgive Brian. Yes, what he did was horrible, and some things are unforgivable, but I don't think that this is one of them. On the bright side, I do think that Brian learned from his mistake. I just wish that Delia could at least see that, even if she couldn't forgive him. (And by "forgive", I don't necessarily mean "reconcile" and be friends with Brian; I simply mean "letting go of the bitterness").

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Re: Discussion for Episode 19: In Dreams Begin Responsibilit

Post by Mutajon » Sep 30th 2011, 7:09 am

BuffaloLawnmower wrote:
Jody Barsch* wrote:Anway, Graham is sexy, not just his looks, but his humor, his kindness, his attitude, I love him.
-agreed.
I agree as well. Being a male I wouldn't have chosen the word "sexy" though. I just think that Graham is cool, in the most positive way possible. I think he has a great attitude towards life and people. This attitude also rubs of to people that are interacting with him - he has a very calming and balanced/sane influence. Rarely in my 28 years of being an only child to a single mom have I felt the need-for/absence-in a father figure in my life, yet watching Graham's character have made me wish more than once that I would have had a dad and that he'd be something along the lines of Graham. He's now also somewhat of a role model for the kind of dad I hope to one day become... :)
I also agree with BL regarding the fact that Graham often feels under-appreciated living with someone as perfectionist and critical as Patty, and this might have been the driving force behind him (almost) straying during their relationship. Even though it's clear that he really loves Patty (and his family) and wouldn't really want to hurt either.
******
BuffaloLawnmower wrote:
grim4746 wrote: So if Jordan ened up like Patty and Brian ended up like Graham would they live happily ever after or would a clean and sober Rayanne storm in full of Hallie Lowenthalesque charm and steal Brian away? :D
--Personally, I do want Brian to end up with Rayanne. I feel like they need each other. Rayanne would benefit from Brian's compassion, sensitivity, and stability. Brian would benefit from Rayanne's free spirit. Rayanne could loosen Brian up; Brian could help Rayanne become more grounded. I think that he would really look out for her and care for her. In the episode "Halloween", it's stated that Brian's hobby is photography and that he "notices things". Rayanne lives to be noticed. I definitely think that Brian is attracted to Rayanne, at least physically, judging from the way that he looks at her. As of the last episode, he does seem put off by how she treats him. However, look how Rayanne and Sharon ended up as friends--real friends. I think that maybe the same thing could happen for Rayanne and Brian. I hope that it would, and that it would work out. I think that their relationship, if they had one, would definitely be stormy and intense at times, and that it might be volatile. However, that's not to say that they couldn't make it work in the end--just that they'd go through a lot first. Regardless of how their relationship ended (or didn't end), though, I think that it would really change both of them and help them both mature and evolve in good ways.
While I can definitely see what your saying about them maturing and learning ( a LOT) from this relationship, I can't help but worry for Brian getting into it. Like you said, there's a lot of suffering to be had in this relationship, and I'm afraid Brian will be having most of it.
I can already see him investing himself, both emotionally and in terms of time and energy, helping Rayanne with some of her struggles (with drinking, maybe drug abuse, maybe finishing high school); Like any struggle she'll experience ups and downs, taking Brian through the emotional turbulence that will result.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that I can see a lot more scenarios that Rayanne could really hurt Brian while MUCH less the other way around. I can certainly see Brian not being "exciting" enough for Rayenne, bore her maybe, but I can see very few scenarios in which he would really hurt her. I could be wrong, of course, but these are just my thoughts on the matter.
****
BuffaloLawnmower wrote: More and more as I re-watch the show, Angela is my least favorite character. She's the most loved out of any of the characters on the show, but she is the least loving, and doesn't really appreciate love at this point.
You've nailed it BL.
As much as I had a hard time coming to terms with it, I'm finding myself feeling more and more the same way towards Angela. She's probably the most selfish and "personal interests-motivated" (interesante? is that a word in English?) of the main characters, and, personality-wise, have became my least favorite.
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BuffaloLawnmower wrote: I am frustrated with Delia, though, for not being able to forgive Brian. Yes, what he did was horrible, and some things are unforgivable, but I don't think that this is one of them. On the bright side, I do think that Brian learned from his mistake. I just wish that Delia could at least see that, even if she couldn't forgive him. (And by "forgive", I don't necessarily mean "reconcile" and be friends with Brian; I simply mean "letting go of the bitterness").
I haven't really thought about it before, but now that you bring it up I agree. Not only did Brian learned from his mistake, he was also quick to do it and was very sincere in his apology (although one wonders what would've happened if things between him and Angela would have gone better at the world happiness dance...). She also seems like a very kind and considerate person, I guess maybe not enough time have past for her to "let go" of the grudge she's obviously still holding.

*******

On a side note, I would like to add that, surprisingly, the more I re-watch the show the more I'm happy that it didn't go on. Having watched way too many shows that have gone out for too long, losing themselves and the audience in a long, slow death, I couldn't be happier that this wasn't the fate for MSCL as well. Also, having read some of Winnie's ideas for the second season I've found most of them either far fetched and or too disturbing. And I think I would have quickly lost faith in the show and the characters if some of this ideas were to be executed.
The way things turned out (in my point of view) is perfect. We got an AMAZING show, that's obviously a delight to come back to and re-watch at any age and in any mood as many times as we wish - it stays perfect throughout. We have (almost) nothing but great experience and memories from watching it, and here we are - after almost 20 years (!!) - people are still actively and passionately discussing that one season, those 19 magical episodes (well, actually 18 imho). Pure pleasure... :)
"Aaaand dance by the light of the mooooon"

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Re: Discussion for Episode 19: In Dreams Begin Responsibilit

Post by BuffaloLawnmower » Nov 7th 2011, 7:16 am

Mutajon wrote: On a side note, I would like to add that, surprisingly, the more I re-watch the show the more I'm happy that it didn't go on. Having watched way too many shows that have gone out for too long, losing themselves and the audience in a long, slow death, I couldn't be happier that this wasn't the fate for MSCL as well. Also, having read some of Winnie's ideas for the second season I've found most of them either far fetched and or too disturbing. And I think I would have quickly lost faith in the show and the characters if some of this ideas were to be executed.
The way things turned out (in my point of view) is perfect. We got an AMAZING show, that's obviously a delight to come back to and re-watch at any age and in any mood as many times as we wish - it stays perfect throughout. We have (almost) nothing but great experience and memories from watching it, and here we are - after almost 20 years (!!) - people are still actively and passionately discussing that one season, those 19 magical episodes (well, actually 18 imho). Pure pleasure... :)
I completely agree with you on that one.

To my understanding, the ideas that Ms. Holzman had were just that--possibilities. From how I interpreted the DVD notes, they weren't necessarily what she was definitely going to do, but were things that she had considered. I remember her mentioning that the writing itself took a completely different direction and that this was one reason why she loved writing. I'll have to go back and re-read them, but that's how I personally took it. The one idea that I did like was of Brian becoming Angela's confidant and friend. I can never see them really being together (and of course I'm also admittedly biased because I like the idea of Brian + Rayanne), but I would have liked for Brian and Angela to have become close friends and for them both to see new sides of each other, like Angela began to see Brian in a new light after the letter.

I'm glad that the show ended as it did because it ended while it was still good and we don't have entire wasted-time seasons of "cringe" episodes. I hate it when a show goes ON and ON for years and declines, and the creators refuse to end the show (often for ratings or money). There are some shows that just go on too long, run out of ideas, reuse plots, or just otherwise start to lack in quality. Others lose the actors portraying the main characters and instead of mercifully ending the show, the 'suits' force it to go on. (The only exception so far that I have found to this, in my humble opinion, is Mystery Science Theater 3000; I enjoy the Mike and Joel episodes equally). I appreciate that Holzman ended the show after Danes no longer wanted to continue rather than try to force it to go on with an unwilling actor or else taking away a major character. As much as I dislike the character of Angela for most of the show (especially for the reason that I mentioned earlier about her being the most love and the least loving), she was a big deal and had an important role. I wouldn't have minded her being relegated to a less-important character while still being present (like how she is during the episodes narrated by Brian and Danielle; I would have loved to have seen more narrations by other characters), but for her to disappear completely would make for a very different show. I did appreciate her introspection and liked that side of her--the side that she showed during the voice-overs--even if she did have a number of other traits that irritated me.

I personally prefer having this short gem of a show to other longer-running but lower-quality shows.

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Re: Discussion for Episode 19: In Dreams Begin Responsibilit

Post by Superjesus » Mar 16th 2013, 9:07 am

Just passing by with a thought.

As a straight man, Jordan's speech to Patty (the "It's like you think you're safe or something" part) is one of the sweetest, most romantic things I've ever heard in my life.

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