Discussion for Episode 19: In Dreams Begin Responsibilities

emmie · Post by **emmie** » Jul 27th 2004, 3:50 pm

I watched this episode again and noticed the paralells made between Tony & Jordan and Graham & Brian(though I still can't picture Brian/Angela together). But I don't recall them ever mentioning that Graham was a geek in school like Brian. Just something I noticed.[/quote]

and in the episode The Zit, Graham says that Angela probably got it from his genes. he refers to his face in high school as an italian entree. from other small inferences, I believe that Patty and Graham were total opposites when they were young. so if she was a popular princess type, then he must have been more geeky, or at least less noticeable.

emmie

Megs · Post by **Megs** » Jul 27th 2004, 4:19 pm

I always wondered how Graham and Patty met, b/c it was said in the pilot that they didn't know each other in high school, so that must mean they met afterwards...

sunshine11 · Post by **sunshine11** » Jul 27th 2004, 4:53 pm

That's interesting that Graham/Patty were total opposites because I would have guessed they more similar in a lot of ways. I guess that kind of throws my parallel theory out the window because I don't think Angela/Brian are that opposite and she definitely isn't popular.

grim4746 · Post by **grim4746** » Jul 27th 2004, 9:37 pm

Graham also indicates he may have been geeky by saying "Meanwhile, I couldn't get a girl to look at me" after telling angela and danielle about the school changing the date of the prom because of Patty's illness.

I love your avatar emmie.

Post by **Natasha (candygirl)** » Jul 27th 2004, 10:46 pm

Me too! I heart Amelie!

emmie · Post by **emmie** » Jul 28th 2004, 3:39 pm

grim4746 wrote:Graham also indicates he may have been geeky by saying "Meanwhile, I couldn't get a girl to look at me" after telling angela and danielle about the school changing the date of the prom because of Patty's illness.

I love your avatar emmie.

cool, thanks. (took me forever to make it!)

Graham also says that he went to a Grateful Dead concert when he was 15, in Father Figures. so maybe he wasn't exactly a dork in high school. that comment brings up some interesting questions about Graham though. was he a hippy?

grim4746 · Post by **grim4746** » Jul 28th 2004, 8:22 pm

It's true that the Dead concert makes Graham seem cooler but there's something geeky about him saying that "It was one of the eight best nights of my life". Not so much because the concert made the list but because he has this list and has it memorized. It's cute but geeky. I have a lot of trouble imagining Graham as a hippy but it's possible. Maybe Neil was a poser hippy and Graham went along with him and his friends.

emmie · Post by **emmie** » Jul 28th 2004, 9:13 pm

grim4746 wrote:It's true that the Dead concert makes Graham seem cooler but there's something geeky about him saying that "It was one of the eight best nights of my life". Not so much because the concert made the list but because he has this list and has it memorized. It's cute but geeky. I have a lot of trouble imagining Graham as a hippy but it's possible. Maybe Neil was a poser hippy and Graham went along with him and his friends.

I love your theory! I can totally see Neil as a poser hippy. trying to be a cool brother and impress Graham. but isn't that list very Angela as well? I mean, she has a list of all of her kisses before Jordan. and has kept a count of exactly how many words they have said to each other and each interaction. hmmm...I like that they have that in common. never noticed it before. I've been rewatching the episodes lately, and I find that I'm liking Graham much more. he seems to have a gentle soul and tries to find the best in people. perhaps they are more alike than I've noticed....

Post by **Natasha (candygirl)** » Jul 29th 2004, 12:20 am

OCD is genetic, you know.

Jody Barsch* · Post by Jody Barsch* » Jul 30th 2004, 3:32 pm

I think that we are supposed to understand that Graham was not that goodl looking in high school (the stuff about his complexion and the conversation with patty when she talks about how he is growing more attractive as he ages). I don't think Graham was a nerd or someone who was picked on, but more just someone who blended into the crowd, like Angela. Something tells me that he might have been a little awkward around the ladies when he was in high school, something that he grew out of not too long after that (after all, food is an aphrodesiac

). Graham never went to college so he and Patty probably met when she was home on vacations or after graduation or something. Maybe they met at a demonstration, maybe he needed something printed and she was working at Wood and Jones, maybe they had friends in common. He could have been friends with Andy Cherski. Anway, Graham is sexy, not just his looks, but his humor, his kindness, his attitude, I love him.

Nothingman · Post by **Nothingman** » Jul 30th 2004, 4:13 pm

I think part of the pull on Graham to go astray is due to the fact he did blend in. He is reaching a point in his life where women are finding him attractive and are pursuing him agressively. I believe this is new experience for him at least on this level of interest, or perhaps the girls are more attractive than he experienced when he was younger. Though Patty was hott when she was younger, she picked Graham after she was done with pushing her boundaries and having experiences. She picked Graham because he was stable and comforting and would make a good father, she said it herself when talking about Tony Pool. In reality there would have been many Tony Pools before Graham. The point is Graham may not have dated many hott women and when Patty came along he decided he'd lock that in for the long term. So he would have never experienced what it's like to be a desireable man on the level he is now. Now's he wondering about what he missed, or what it would have been like.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Jul 31st 2004, 2:13 pm

Nothingman wrote:I think part of the pull on Graham to go astray is due to the fact he did blend in. He is reaching a point in his life where women are finding him attractive and are pursuing him agressively. I believe this is new experience for him at least on this level of interest, or perhaps the girls are more attractive than he experienced when he was younger. Though Patty was hott when she was younger, she picked Graham after she was done with pushing her boundaries and having experiences. She picked Graham because he was stable and comforting and would make a good father, she said it herself when talking about Tony Pool. In reality there would have been many Tony Pools before Graham. The point is Graham may not have dated many hott women and when Patty came along he decided he'd lock that in for the long term. So he would have never experienced what it's like to be a desireable man on the level he is now. Now's he wondering about what he missed, or what it would have been like.

Bingo!You made some interesting points and I couldn't agree more.Graham definitely thinks he missed out on stuff, not only with women but also with other things, for example he never went to that fancy chef school because he had to work in printing bussiness under Patty, not to mention her parents constantly undermining his self- confidence.

Few people also said that Graham was like Brian in highschool.I don't know I really can't picture it.I think he was a lot more like Angela( except Angela's kinda cute and he obviously wasn't).

Oh God, I've just had the craziest idea.Let's say Graham was like Angela, and Patty was like Jordan( in sense that they were both extremely attractive and popular,each in their way).And let's say that somehow, somewher Jordan and Angela get married.

Does that mean that in 15 from now Angela would be on a break of having an affair with Hall L.? Or what?

Nostradamus · Post by **Nostradamus** » Aug 4th 2004, 12:05 am

That's an interesting thought, comparing Jordan to Patty. I can see Jordan getting a Joe job, settling down, giving up music. He'd still be a nice guy, but not as dead sexy as he was during his teens. And if the speculation about his MJ use is correct, there could be issues with yellow teeth, premature wrinkles, etc. (Happy 27th birthday, Willie Nelson!

)

Following that line, Brian could outgrow his stand-offish personality and geek-chic looks to become a born-again stud like Graham...

Jody Barsch* · Post by Jody Barsch* » Aug 4th 2004, 5:46 pm

Nothingman wrote:He is reaching a point in his life where women are finding him attractive and are pursuing him agressively. I believe this is new experience for him at least on this level of interest, or perhaps the girls are more attractive than he experienced when he was younger. Though Patty was hott when she was younger, she picked Graham after she was done with pushing her boundaries and having experiences. She picked Graham because he was stable and comforting and would make a good father, she said it herself when talking about Tony Pool. In reality there would have been many Tony Pools before Graham. The point is Graham may not have dated many hott women and when Patty came along he decided he'd lock that in for the long term. So he would have never experienced what it's like to be a desireable man on the level he is now. Now's he wondering about what he missed, or what it would have been like.

A very well-made point.

Graham: Oh... well I can see it now: social world, wild parties...Axel Rose.
AngelaVO: My dad thinks every person in the world is having more fun than him. Which could be true

Graham: I mean, she could be cutting class, doing drugs...having sex. Like we did.
Patty: I never cut class, and you never had sex in high school.

Graham: Well, that makes five. Now, you told me you went to bed with four guys. Hmm?

Graham: All 900...They knew all 900 of your friends personally? ...
AngelaVO: My parents went to the same high school, but they never knew each other, then.
Graham: Did you know that they had to change the date of the prom because your mother was getting her appendix out? ... Meanwhile, I couldn't get a girl to look at me.

Patty: Well, so now, the tables have turned, haven't they? I mean, I, like all women, am becoming less and less attractive in the eyes of the world, more and more expendable as I grow older, while you, like all men, are considered more desirable and more attractive the older you get.

Patty: You really have no idea how attractive you are, do you?
Graham: I'm not attractive

Graham: Neil. Neil. I uh... I met this girl.
Neil: What? What? Well, I'm not surprised.
Graham: How can you say that?
Neil: I don't know...I just...
Graham: I didn't mean to meet her. I was doing some printing for her, and we started....you know...we would get into these really long conversations, the kind where you look up and you're surprised to see other people. ... One day, out of nowhere, she grabs my tie, and she says, "I hate you. I can't sleep because of you." Right? She starts saying these unbelievable things....

It’s interesting that Neil isn’t surprised, why isn’t he? Does he see the same thing Nothingman seems to -- that Graham, never having many sexual experiences as a young man would eventually start seeking them as an adult? Does Neil simply recognize that women find Graham desireable? I don’t think it’s that he sees anything wrong in Patty and Graham's marriage because earlier that episode he says:

Neil: I mean we still see each other sometimes, and once in a while you know, we still have sex.
Graham: Sounds like my marriage. Just kidding.
Neil: ... I envy what you have with Patty.
Graham: Well of course Patty and I have our problems.
Neil: Yeah. Sure you do....you do?
Graham: Well I mean, it's only normal that...you know, ...things can't always be... it...it's just not realistic. Not that I'm not you know, happy.
Neil : What, you're kidding me ? You and Patty? You're the happiest couple I know. No question.

Probably Neil, the commitment phobe, just can’t imagine life-long fidelity.

grim4746 · Post by **grim4746** » Aug 5th 2004, 12:12 am

Nostradamus wrote:That's an interesting thought, comparing Jordan to Patty. I can see Jordan getting a Joe job, settling down, giving up music. He'd still be a nice guy, but not as dead sexy as he was during his teens. And if the speculation about his MJ use is correct, there could be issues with yellow teeth, premature wrinkles, etc. (Happy 27th birthday, Willie Nelson! )

Following that line, Brian could outgrow his stand-offish personality and geek-chic looks to become a born-again stud like Graham...

So if Jordan ened up like Patty and Brian ended up like Graham would they live happily ever after or would a clean and sober Rayanne storm in full of Hallie Lowenthalesque charm and steal Brian away?

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