Ok... The Matrix Reloaded... who saw it?

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MartinPierre
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Post by MartinPierre » May 29th 2003, 7:45 am

My take on the Matrix 2:

Neo is Human, so are all the people human in real life. However, they are in the Meta-Matrix.

For some reason, the Matrix is unstable if everyone is thinking, so they need some people to awake to tell the computer what is wrong and let it repair the problem.

However, they don't let them REALLY awake, they just take them to a different Matrix, where the computer gathers information and rebuilts a new Matrix with errors corrected.

At that point, EVERYONE will be in the Matrix, but slowly, people will awaken into the Meta-Matrix, one by one until Neo is cloned ( or better yet, we don't know the diffence of speed between the Matrix and the real real life, time coudl go much faster in the Matrix and Meta-Matrix ).

Neo is the ONE because he can control the Matrix. He is perhaps wired differently in the real world or his mind is different.

Only this time, something went wrong : instead of just awakening in the Matrix, he is also awakening in the Meta-Matrix and he might be the first human to trully awaken in the real world, which might be VERY different from the meta-matrix they perceive as being the real world.

The first Matrix didn't explain a few things I didn't like : WHY THE HELL DOES THE ROBOT THAT UNPLUGGED NEO DIDN'T KILL HIM ???

If the Matrix knows humans are awakening, and they build sentinels to fight them, why do they let them awaken ?

They detected he awoke, they even unplugged him. They should have killed him !

It doesn't make any sense, but I simply figured that they had no choice but let him awaken otherwise, no real world !

But if the Real World is just another matrix to let people fight the inner matrix instead of trying to really awaken, then it makes a lot of sense !

And Agent Smith going to the Real World doesn't make ANY sense, but if he is the first program to escape to the Meta-Matrix, it could make sense.

Because remember, the programs of the Matrix will NOT be the same as the Meta-Matrix. A program could not escape normally, but Smith is a running program.

Ok, I hate the fact it has been divided in 2 movies !!!

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Post by MartinPierre » May 29th 2003, 7:49 am

Oh yeah....

About the phones to leave the Matrix...

They are not really phones, just as the doors in the 2 that lead to other places are not really doors.

They are the representation in the Matrix of an Exit.

They cannot use ANY phone. They must use specific phones.

For example, you could have a picture of a computer on your desktop, you coudl have icons on your desktop. But only the "My Computer" icon will open the "My Computer" folder.

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Post by andrewgd » May 29th 2003, 2:07 pm

I don't beleive we've seen the real world yet. I think we've seen the Matrix, and the Zion-Matrix. The Zion-Matrix (my name for what they call the "real world" in the Matrix) is just a way to keep those who break out of the program still under control.

Some things this explains:

Trinity is able to save Neo in Ep1. How can she possibly bring him back to life if that is supposed to be a "real world"?? She can't. But she's able to because whoever constructed these Matrixes decided that she could because they needed Neo to survive.

Mr. Smith being able to travel into the Zion-Matrix. The idea of a computer program being able to get out of the Matrix into the "real world" is absolutely rediculous! But if it were just another Matrix, its definitely possible.

Neo being able to stop the Sentinels. The idea of him bringing his "powers" into the "real world" is just as rediculous as the Mr. Smith idea. But if it was another matrix, it would make sense.
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Post by Nostradamus » May 31st 2003, 6:02 am

Due to circumstances beyond my control I was unable to get opening day tickets as I had planned, but I stopped by the theater just for the people watching and I must say I was disappointed! Sure, the lines were huge, but there were almost no Goth, Dom, or Cyberpunk costumes; not even designer sunglasses! The temperatures were a little warm, but not enough to stop rabid fans, or so I thought. Did anyone else make the opening, and if so, how was the turnout? My faith in my fellow weirdos has been sorely shaken... :(

Anyway, the movie itself, which I finally caught yesterday, was not at all disappointing; if anything, it slightly exceeded my already high expectations. Must sleep now, but maybe after I've had time to digest it I'll post some theories.

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Post by Sascha (sab) » May 31st 2003, 7:00 am

An interesting (and lengthy) analysis of "Matrix Reloaded" can be found here.

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Post by Nostradamus » Jun 1st 2003, 6:05 pm

Thoughts on the Merovingian...

What little we know of the Matrix Merovingian seems to match the historical dynasty of kings that went by the same name: a powerful figure that once supported the status quo, but was later betrayed and exiled by it, and who has been scheming ever since to regain his position.

But what is his power? When it came time to throw down, the Merovingian ran away while his potent squad of goons did the dirty work. And how did he come to command such superior fighters? I presume money doesn't mean much to non-corporeal sentient computer programs. There is also the matter of how he could imprison a man who seems to have a key for every lock in the Matrix. The only direct indication of his power seems to be his creative abilities, as seen in the cakegasm sequence and in the trick-doors that neo walked through.

Given his (and Persephone's) arrogant and sybaritic nature, my guess as to his origins is that he was a part of the first Matrix where all of humanity's desires were met.

There is probably more subtext surrounding Persephone, but my Greek mythology is a little rusty. Is the Merovingian also Hades?

The scenes involving these two characters felt truncated, as if more was filmed but cut due to time constraints. Perhaps we will see more of them in the final installment.
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Post by Nostradamus » Jun 1st 2003, 6:23 pm

MartinPierre wrote:The first Matrix didn't explain a few things I didn't like : WHY THE HELL DOES THE ROBOT THAT UNPLUGGED NEO DIDN'T KILL HIM ???

If the Matrix knows humans are awakening, and they build sentinels to fight them, why do they let them awaken ?

They detected he awoke, they even unplugged him. They should have killed him !

It doesn't make any sense, but I simply figured that they had no choice but let him awaken otherwise, no real world !
My take on that scene was that the "Red Pill" not only traced the location of Neo's body, it convinced the "farmer" machines that he was dead, and possibly corrupted in some way, which would explain why he was flushed down the toilet rather than being "recycled" to feed the other pod people.

But yeah, you'd think the "farmer" would have crushed his skull or something, just to make sure.

:hammer1: :wink:
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Post by mglenn » Jun 4th 2003, 11:34 am

On the phone issue, you have to go much deeper to understand the issues I have. Being a programmer and having toyed with writing an Operating System as well as a mobile peer to peer wireless mp3 player for mine and my friends car thats built on linux and java. (I promise I'll post it sometime. I need to document it for general use.) Anyway back to my point, the matrix would almost certainly be a peer to peer message passing system. Which means that when a rebel hovercraft goes to "broadcast depth" it sends out a message that convinces the nearby matrix nodes that the hovercraft is a valid node on the network and is able to recieve messages for the objects(neo, trinity and the rest of the jacked in crew) that are moving into that nodes part of the simulation.

Does your head hurt yet?

Now the theory that I've heard goes that the hardline phones are like an IP address and act as an insertion address for the crew into that nodes part of the matrix. Ok fine so far...

The part that gets me is why they need the phone to get out?
I just can't figure a good reason, well except for the fact that it adds tension to the movie! :wink:

As for the Merovingian I'll point to this line from Persephone: "He use to be like you!". And I'll point to Morpheus line about there being a person who could manipulate the matrix, the one that feeded the first of them. Larry and Andy are masters at making the smallest lines forshadow the most important details.
There is probably more subtext surrounding Persephone, but my Greek mythology is a little rusty. Is the Merovingian also Hades?
Persephone was the daughter of Zeus and Demeter. Demeter controls the seasons. Persephone was abducted by Hades, later release but must return to the underworld for 6 months of the year(fall and winter).

The name Merovingian has nothing to do with mythology. Someone correct me on this but I think Merovingian was a french ruling family in the 13th century or something.

As for killing Neo when he first wakes up I think the Architect saying that the programming requires him to do so explains the reasons that he is not killed. In other words if he doesn't eventually every one starts to wake up at random. Chaos!!! Computers like Vulcans require logic and order!
"When I disagree with a rational man, I let reality be our final arbiter; if I am right, he will learn; if I am wrong, I will; one of us will win, but both will profit." - Ayn Rand

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Post by Nostradamus » Jun 4th 2003, 11:00 pm

mglenn wrote:On the phone issue, you have to go much deeper to understand the issues I have. Being a programmer and having toyed with writing an Operating System as well as a mobile peer to peer wireless mp3 player for mine and my friends car thats built on linux and java. (I promise I'll post it sometime. I need to document it for general use.) Anyway back to my point, the matrix would almost certainly be a peer to peer message passing system. Which means that when a rebel hovercraft goes to "broadcast depth" it sends out a message that convinces the nearby matrix nodes that the hovercraft is a valid node on the network and is able to recieve messages for the objects(neo, trinity and the rest of the jacked in crew) that are moving into that nodes part of the simulation.

Does your head hurt yet?

Now the theory that I've heard goes that the hardline phones are like an IP address and act as an insertion address for the crew into that nodes part of the matrix. Ok fine so far...

The part that gets me is why they need the phone to get out?
I just can't figure a good reason, well except for the fact that it adds tension to the movie! :wink:
Fascinating stuff. I do know that in Astral Projection it is recommended that the astral body return slowly to the physical body. An instant return is not usually fatal, but can be unpleasant.
The name Merovingian has nothing to do with mythology. Someone correct me on this but I think Merovingian was a french ruling family in the 13th century or something.
Author Jim Marrs states:
The Merovingian dynasty of Franks has been traditionally considered the first race of kings in what is now France.
Depending on who you talk to, the Merovingians ruled from about A.D. 450-750, and may have been descended from Jesus, the lost tribes of Israel, an ancient sea monster, extraterrestrials, all of the above, or none of the above. In any case, they were seen as a threat to the power of the Church, and were deposed through Papal machinations. However, as you suggest, their descendants continued to exercise power behind the scenes throughout the Middle Ages, having a hand in the creation of the Priory of Sion and the Knights Templar. Eventually their last supporters were mostly wiped out by the Albigensian Crusade, though there are rumors that the Merovingian line persists to this day, still plotting to retake its lost throne.

My point being that much of the real Merovingians' story matches up, at least symbolically, with the Matrix Merovingian. Given what you have told us about Persephone, it is possible that the Merovingian may also symbolize Hades. Of course, in the Matrix, anything is possible...

:wink:
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Post by mglenn » Jun 5th 2003, 9:24 am

Depending on who you talk to, the Merovingians ruled from about A.D. 450-750, and may have been descended from Jesus, the lost tribes of Israel, an ancient sea monster, extraterrestrials, all of the above, or none of the above. In any case, they were seen as a threat to the power of the Church, and were deposed through Papal machinations. However, as you suggest, their descendants continued to exercise power behind the scenes throughout the Middle Ages, having a hand in the creation of the Priory of Sion and the Knights Templar. Eventually their last supporters were mostly wiped out by the Albigensian Crusade, though there are rumors that the Merovingian line persists to this day, still plotting to retake its lost throne.
Is it me or does anyone else see the irony of Nostradamus being the one to explain this? :D

Using the above I'll expound on my previous statedment to point out that I think the Merovingian is a pervious version of "The One"
(possibly from the very first version of the matrix) who made the decision to allow Zion to be destroyed and selected 23 new individuals to build a new Zion. If you look at the idea that the Merovingian is a desendant of Christ and Neo being protrayed as a christ-like figure, only in this case he's and inverse desendant(I hope that makes some sence)... Its just that in hindsight he realizes that he made the wrong choice and wasn't truely "The One", hense his bad attitude on the whole subject.

It gets really interesting when you start to consider that the keymaker was needed both to to keep the status quo and to destroy it. By attempting to not allow the keymaker to be used by Neo, both allows the possiblity of himself remaking the same decision and/or destroying the balance of the matrix by the decision not to be made (I'm quite sure its to early for this kinda thinking!) :D
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Post by starbug » Jun 5th 2003, 11:13 am

my head hurts...

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Post by Nostradamus » Jun 10th 2003, 12:15 am

Here's a different line of thought that's been bothering me since the first Matrix, and to a lesser extent with all sci-fi plots involving sentient machines enslaving or destroying humanity:

What, if anything, do the machines do in their spare time? Other than tending the Matrix, growing the pod-people, and crushing Zion, what are the machines' goals? Do they want to explore space, improve themselves, talk to God? Is there a machine culture? Do they need entertainment, or at least intellectual stimulation? Or are they motivated by a simple self-preservation "instinct", rather like the virus that Smith ranted about?

In the Terminator mythology, it was easy to believe that Skynet's motivations were simple, because although it had become self-aware, it was still limited by it's original programming, that of a military defense system. Philosophical abstractions were irrelevant; only life and death mattered. Hypothetically, if Skynet ever succeeded in wiping out the post-nuke survivors, it would consolidate its position and await a new threat, possibly forever.

But the machines behind the Matrix were more diverse, and not initially hostile. They have made in-depth studies of humanity, so could it be that something rubbed off? In Reloaded we have seen that not all of the programs wish to harm humans, though one presumes they are not ready to be mankind's servants again either. So what would make them happy?
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Matrix Revolutions

Post by Sascha (sab) » Nov 6th 2003, 4:57 am

So, "Revolutions" started yesterday worldwide at the same time (but according to news reports, noone really cared ;-)) -- has anybody seen it yet? Is it really as bad as the critics are saying?

I'll probably see it next week.

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Post by fnordboy » Nov 6th 2003, 12:00 pm

I have plans to go on Saturday. I don't know what to think going in to it. I wasn't happy with reloaded and I have never been a big matrix fan in general. Hopefully it is worht the money to see it though.

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Post by Nothingman » Nov 6th 2003, 12:37 pm

I will never forget the night I saw The Matrix Revolutions. Unfortunately it will not be because of the movie. I picked up tickets for it yesterday afternoon, and when we got to the theater we stood outside in line for about a half hour in the cold. It was in the single digits last night, I'd guess about 8 degrees above zero (no, I’m not exaggerating). This was ok, I’m used to cold temperatures, but the problem was the theater had no heat. It was the same temperature inside. So I sat for 3 hours watching a movie and my own breath.

The last episode of the matrix did anything but finish strong. The giant battle scenes were impressive in a video game sort of way. The movie falls flat when it comes to continuing the mind twisting plot lines. In terms of matrix philosophy there isn’t much in the way of new ideas. This is an action movie; it ties up loose ends and concludes the fate of The One. I had such high hopes that the last installment would send my mind reeling, no such luck. I’m glad I know how the story ends, but I’m not sure why I bothered to sit in the cold to see it on opening night. If you are a fan of the matrix go see how the story ends. If you don’t really care about the story, and you just want to go see a good movie, find something else.

I’ll write more about the storyline once everyone has had a chance to see it. I just wanted to give you guys a heads up.
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