Discussion for Episode 17: Betrayal

General discussion about the nineteen episodes of "My So-Called Life". Note: Our episode guide can be found here.
whatever

Post by whatever » Aug 3rd 2003, 6:49 am

That scene,when Jordan and Rayanne are leaning against his car drinking and when he is constantly asking about Angela(where she is,does she like Corey) contrasts the scene in "Self-esteem" when he says to Angela "you're kinda crowding me" and now all of a sudden he's asking where she is, huh? So, now he wants to see her?And in "Self-esteem" Rayanne is there with " you know you like her......" just like she is there in "Betrayal".
The only thing I don't get is why Jordan is confiding to Rayanne about his business with Angela.I mean Rayanne is Angela's best friend, she tells her stuff.Is this like IN VINO VERITAS, or whatever?

whatever

Post by whatever » Aug 3rd 2003, 8:58 pm

When Brian thinks that Jordan's gonna beat him up in that scene in the hallway and Jordan asks "So what was on the tape" does Brian says"Oh, you know,just you and Graff screwing in your car.Oh, yeah and by the way your ex knows about it".No, seriously, did Jordan find out from Brian(Brain) that Angela knows about the whole thing?Because later he approaches her with that lame pen excuse..What do you guys think?

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The other way around

Post by Clockwork orange » Dec 28th 2003, 12:58 pm

I watched this ep again, and some weird ideas came across my mind.

When Rayanne and Jordan have their little talk (morning after),Rayanne is standing in front of the add board and it says:DRAMA NEWS, sth... EASY, TAKE ONE, FOR SALE.I don't know I just thought that was kinda hilarious and connected with Rayanne as a character.

People on this thread talk about Angela forgiving Jordan. So, here's my theoretical question.Let' say Angela got drunk at some party, and someone, let's say Shane :shock: was also there.And you know, one thing led to another..., and Tino witnessed their transgression and told Catalano.How would he react to that?Come on people,work with me here, I really wanna know.
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Post by Jody Barsch* » Dec 28th 2003, 6:23 pm

Interesting question! I have to think about it for a while, but my initial response would be that it would be a problem, a big one initially (like their confrontation in his garage), but that he might get over it. (But I might just be thinking about Carrie Big and Aiden, although there is a huge difference between Shane and Big).
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Re: The other way around

Post by Sophia CH4 » Jan 10th 2004, 3:47 pm

Clockwork orange wrote:I watched this ep again, and some weird ideas came across my mind.

When Rayanne and Jordan have their little talk (morning after),Rayanne is standing in front of the add board and it says:DRAMA NEWS, sth... EASY, TAKE ONE, FOR SALE.I don't know I just thought that was kinda hilarious and connected with Rayanne as a character.

People on this thread talk about Angela forgiving Jordan. So, here's my theoretical question.Let' say Angela got drunk at some party, and someone, let's say Shane :shock: was also there.And you know, one thing led to another..., and Tino witnessed their transgression and told Catalano.How would he react to that?Come on people,work with me here, I really wanna know.
he would definitely have a problem with that, the whole reason he loves angela is that she's sweet, innocent, nice person, and if she was to do something so ugly, i don't think he would feel the same way about her, because if anyone was suppose to be her number 1( in near or distant future) it was him.
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Post by TomSpeed » Jan 10th 2004, 6:15 pm

Actually, Jordan might view Angela sleeping with someone as a relief. Yes, he is attracted by her goodness and innocence. But he is also intimidated by those qualities. He seems to feel unworthy.
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guest420

Post by guest420 » Jan 10th 2004, 8:37 pm

the brian-jordan scene.
i feel he outsmarts him and makes something up about how he taped him drinking. maybe thats why catalano doesn't apologise when he gets the frosty treatment from angela about the pen. could he later be thinking
"she doesn't like his drinking habits so this is why she is being weird"

do we actually see him drinking after this episode? i cant remember

people i ask you "does this make sense or have i gone completely crazy"?

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Post by Sophia CH4 » Jan 11th 2004, 2:12 pm

guest420 wrote:the brian-jordan scene.
i feel he outsmarts him and makes something up about how he taped him drinking. maybe thats why catalano doesn't apologise when he gets the frosty treatment from angela about the pen. could he later be thinking
"she doesn't like his drinking habits so this is why she is being weird"

do we actually see him drinking after this episode? i cant remember

people i ask you "does this make sense or have i gone completely crazy"?
i don't know, i think that after "the frosty treatment" he kinda figured out that she knows about the "incident"

TomSpeed Actually, Jordan might view Angela sleeping with someone as a relief. Yes, he is attracted by her goodness and innocence. But he is also intimidated by those qualities. He seems to feel unworthy.

so what are you sayin'? that it would be a good thing?
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Post by Sophia CH4 » Jan 11th 2004, 2:15 pm

TomSpeed wrote:Actually, Jordan might view Angela sleeping with someone as a relief. Yes, he is attracted by her goodness and innocence. But he is also intimidated by those qualities. He seems to feel unworthy.
i'm still not good with this quote thingy.....you're saying it would be a good thing, if she did wih someone?
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Post by TomSpeed » Jan 12th 2004, 11:02 am

Sophia CH4 wrote:
TomSpeed wrote:Actually, Jordan might view Angela sleeping with someone as a relief. Yes, he is attracted by her goodness and innocence. But he is also intimidated by those qualities. He seems to feel unworthy.
i'm still not good with this quote thingy.....you're saying it would be a good thing, if she did wih someone?
It could be a good thing for Jordan in terms of he could know how to relate to Angela. Of course, it could also be a bad thing for Jordan and Angela. Jordan seems to like Angela because she is different from other girls. But her differentness makes it hard for him to know how to interact with her. He tries what he knows. But what he knows doesn't seem to be enough.

For Angela, it might be good to have sex with or without love because she would get something over with that has been troubling her. Of course, the costs of doing something like having sex for sex's sake could have costs.

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Patty: If Rayanne's not seeing you, and we're not seeing you, who is seeing you?
Graham: And how much of you?
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Post by starbug » Jan 12th 2004, 12:37 pm

TomSpeed wrote: Jordan seems to like Angela because she is different from other girls. But her differentness makes it hard for him to know how to interact with her. He tries what he knows. But what he knows doesn't seem to be enough.
This is a really good perspective; I'd never thought about it like that before. I do think Jordan is transposing what he's learnt (and given rise to his expectations) from other girls onto Angela; she doesn't expect or understand this, and he has no idea how to handle any kind of more romantic sex, although he seems perfectly comfortable with non-romantic sex.

I have mixed feelings when I watch Angela agonising over sex. Now, I watch the episode and think 'oh get over it and just sleep with him' (a la Rayanne) but this is clearly because I'm projecting my own knowledge and experience on to Angela. At the same time I also think 'go on girl, stand firm and stick up for your principles; well done'. Obviously these are two conflicting statements and the fact that I am made to feel that both of these things are valid reactions at the same time is exactly what makes MSCL so re-watchable. I remember watching the show for the first time and totally understanding her point of view.

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Post by Sophia CH4 » Jan 16th 2004, 3:25 pm

tomspeed wrote;

It could be a good thing for Jordan in terms of he could know how to relate to Angela. Of course, it could also be a bad thing for Jordan and Angela. Jordan seems to like Angela because she is different from other girls. But her differentness makes it hard for him to know how to interact with her. He tries what he knows. But what he knows doesn't seem to be enough.


so, if she was to turn into, i dunno, a slut potential, he would be able to interact with her better? the fact that he doesn't know how to interact with her is ultimately his problem, not hers because i think he does understand what kind of relationship she wants, so he can either learn how to interact with her and make some changes or he can just forget about the whole thing, because i think it was pretty obvious through the entire show, that she will not abandon her true self( a toaster) because of him or anyone else for that matter.
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Post by TomSpeed » Jan 16th 2004, 4:15 pm

Sophia CH4 wrote:tomspeed wrote;

It could be a good thing for Jordan in terms of he could know how to relate to Angela. Of course, it could also be a bad thing for Jordan and Angela. Jordan seems to like Angela because she is different from other girls. But her differentness makes it hard for him to know how to interact with her. He tries what he knows. But what he knows doesn't seem to be enough.


so, if she was to turn into, i dunno, a slut potential, he would be able to interact with her better? the fact that he doesn't know how to interact with her is ultimately his problem, not hers because i think he does understand what kind of relationship she wants, so he can either learn how to interact with her and make some changes or he can just forget about the whole thing, because i think it was pretty obvious through the entire show, that she will not abandon her true self( a toaster) because of him or anyone else for that matter.
Angela seems to be out of Jordan's skill set. He's attracted to her, but she is different from the other girls with whom he's become familiar. If she slept around, he'd know how to interact with her. However, it might be Angela's unique qualities that attract him to her.

Angela wants to sleep with Jordan. But she doesn't want to sleep with him at the same time. She's also jealous of the attention the girls who fall into the most slut potential category get from the boys at school. But she doesn't seem to have decided that she wants to try to join their group.

Both Angela and Jordan seem to have several conflicts going on in their lives. They are a lot like us.
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Patty: If Rayanne's not seeing you, and we're not seeing you, who is seeing you?
Graham: And how much of you?
Angela: Dad!
Graham: Oh, I'm sorry! I asked a question about your life, didn't I? Woah, what came over me?
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Post by Guest » Jan 17th 2004, 4:51 am

Tomspeed wrote;
Angela seems to be out of Jordan's skill set. He's attracted to her, but she is different from the other girls with whom he's become familiar. If she slept around, he'd know how to interact with her. However, it might be Angela's unique qualities that attract him to her.
Yeah, I agree.But what if she wouldn't sleep around? What if she just slept with him?Would that change his perception of her and her qualities? I mean, would she still be sweet and innocent in his eyes?

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Post by TomSpeed » Jan 17th 2004, 7:15 pm

I think that if Angela slept with Jordan early in their relationship, Jordan would lose interest in her. The fact that she is not accessible attracts him. It's interesting that they become closer and form a more defined relationship after they officially break up.
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Patty: If Rayanne's not seeing you, and we're not seeing you, who is seeing you?
Graham: And how much of you?
Angela: Dad!
Graham: Oh, I'm sorry! I asked a question about your life, didn't I? Woah, what came over me?
http://www.last.fm/user/TomSpeed/

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