Discussion for Episode 17: Betrayal

General discussion about the nineteen episodes of "My So-Called Life". Note: Our episode guide can be found here.
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Discussion for Episode 17: Betrayal

Post by Natasha (candygirl) » May 5th 2003, 1:52 am

Welcome to our seventeenth MSCL.com episode discussion!

If you haven't already done so, please read the info about the weekly discussions here.

I highly recommend reading the Angela's World essay that pertains to this episode.

Other threads related to Betrayal that may be of interest are:
kitchen hygiene
overalls
Abyssinia's last name
Rayanne and Angela in gym class
hair as a metaphor
Who betrayed Angela more - Rayanne or Jordan?
Graham and Hallie
Who was Corey really interested in?
Rayanne - a real friend?
baggage
Why do we love Graham?

Some threads about recurring themes:
Patty and Graham suck
Angela, Rayanne, & Rickie
food
the contradiction that we call Rayanne
Last edited by Natasha (candygirl) on May 5th 2003, 3:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Natasha (candygirl) » May 5th 2003, 2:51 am

Such a heartbreaking episode - we begin with Angela's exuberent dance of freedom at the beginning of the episode and end with her and Rayanne crying onstage, walking away from each other. The talent - the writing, the acting, everything. Am I just getting overly sentimental because it's almost the end of the series?

:oops:

I love Angela's "Blister in the Sun" dance - she is usually so controlled and restrained, but here she lets loose and goes crazy. Much more realistic than watching Kirsten Dunst dance around her bedroom in Bring It On! I like that you can hear the clothes being whipped around as Angela dances around - nice detail.

This is also the first time we see Angela enjoy eating - such a contrast from the pilot when she simply stabs her fork into the food on her plate. Although we do see her eat throughout the series (ice cream, an apple Rayanne hands her, etc.) this is the first time we see her eat with such zest, such relish (and I don't mean lemon zest or pickle relish!).

Most people agree that Rayanne committed the ultimate betrayal by sleeping with Jordan, but even before that happens, we see her lashing out. Before she auditions, she gets in a dig at Rickie about living with Mr. Katimski and then she dismisses Angela's claim about being over Jordan. As self-involved as Rayanne has been before, she was never intentionally mean to Rickie or Angela (inconsiderate perhaps, but not MEAN).

We do learn that Rayanne practiced at Angela's the night before, which should seem promising - that they are spending time together, but later at Louie's, Rayanne tells Jordan, "[Angela] didn't come - just like usual." True we haven't seen them spend as much time together as they used to, but it does seem that they have both been making an effort to hang out since On the Wagon. Despite the fact that Angela helped Rayanne prepare for the audition and went to watch the audition, Rayanne still seems to feel that Angela is not dependable anymore. Who's winning the least dependable friend race right now - Angela or Tino? :wink:

Rayanne later tells Jordan that she only auditioned because it was Angela's idea - notice the shift in the dynamics of the Rickie/Rayanne/Angela relationship. Angela used to do things that Rayanne told her to do - Rayanne coached her in how to approach Jordan, something that Angela would not have had the nerve to do on her own. Now Angela is coaching Rayanne for a part in the school play, something that Rayanne would not have dared to do on her own. Interestingly, why does Angela think that auditioning for the play is a good idea for Rayanne? Does she see this as a way to publicly redeem Rayanne's reputation as an exhibitionist after the Vertigo debacle? Angela is sure to tell Rayanne how proud she is of her - maybe Angela also sees this as an opportunity to redeem herself for missing Rayanne's debut with Frozen Embyros/Between Names.

Brian and that damn video camera - the first time I saw this episode, I thought, "Why are they making Brian into David on 90210?" I did like that Brian used the opportunity to zoom in on Sharon's, ahem, assets. Very Pop-Up Video moment - when Sharon says "but..." as Brian looks at her butt :D Yes, sometimes I really am still 14 years old! Anyway, I love the later scene when Brian tells some drama club girl, "Yeah, I was influenced by Spielberg, um, but I think my, my recent work is more like Tarantino, only less violent...."


Anyone else notice the pictures of Sharon taped to the window in the yearbook office?

When Angela is talking to Corey, we hear her think, "I like him. I do," which sounded to me like she was almost talking herself into it. She had no interest in him at all in Life of Brian. I think he just happens to be convenient (as Rayanne later describes Jordan).

Why the sudden awkwardness between Angela and Jordan? The last we saw, they were hanging out as friends and they are avoiding each other in the hallway and Angela is making a concerted effort to make him jealous by flirting with Corey? How over Jordan can she be when she is deliberately trying to raise Jordan's ire? The scene about "definitely wanting to help...or something" reminded me of the scene when she went insane and asked Rayanne if Dana Odinger really had her lips siliconed in Dancing in the Dark - just babbling while Jordan is in the vicinity.

At Louie's, Rayanne tells Brian to get the camera out of her face - for once, she does not want to be the center of attention because she is too busy wallowing in self-pity. Why is she convinced that she performed so poorly? And why is this what drives her to break her New Year's resolution to quit drinking? Is it really her belief that she can never BE Angela? That she has failed in her attempt to convince an audience that she can be sweet and innocent?

The conversation between Rayanne and Jordan at Louie's - "I'm drunk." "Yeah, me too." I don't doubt that they are drunk - they are - but me thinks they doth protest too much, which is pretty typical of teen drinkers (how many times have you heard the mating call, "I'm soooooo drunk"?). Although it does happen pretty spontaneously while they are drunk, they are both still aware. They don't just give in to their hormones and start humping on the hood of the car - they break off the kiss, open the door, look around self-consciously, and then climb into the car. The next day, Rayanne tells Jordan, "My head is, like, pounding," then gives him a guilty sideways glance as she says, "I was really out of it last night," to excuse what happened.

If Rayanne's excuse is her subconscious desire to be Angela, what is Jordan's excuse for having sex with Rayanne? Why does Jordan approach Rayanne at school the next day? Why did Brian follow them?

Very telling is Jordan's statement, "Sometimes it's like I really think I know her. And then it'll be like we're total strangers." Even more telling is when Rayanne concurs. I can see Jordan not knowing Angela since they spent more time making out than they did talking (and even after they broke up, he did most of the talking complaining about Tino quitting the band), but it is so sad to hear that coming from Rayanne, who Angela has claimed is her best friend.

The next day, interesting that Angela responds to Corey's talk of painting the oak tree with, "Let's do it!" Even though it's a common colloquial thing to say, just funny considering what happened the night before and the way Angela later tells Rickie about how Sharon said that "Rayanne supposedly did it with Jordan." I crack up every time I see Rickie saying, "Sounds like fun. You know - painting."

Camille is a smart cookie - she picks up on Hallie's vibe immediately. Why does Patty still have Danielle's baby clothes? Don't get me wrong - my mom still has some of my baby clothes, but what I mean is that Camille's church must have had a clothing drive some time before this year, so wouldn't Patty have given away those baby clothes already? Then again, maybe she wasn't able to let go until now.

In the yearbook office, we see Sharon wearing a big fuzzy sweater with overalls - it totally reminded me of Willow (on BtVS) in the early geek years. Later we see Angela wearing a fuzzy blue and black striped sweater under her purple overalls - wow. Anyway, we also see that Sharon is a fingerlicker when she is sorting through yearbook photos - wouldn't that smear the finish?
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Post by Natasha (candygirl) » May 5th 2003, 3:33 am

Corey tells Angela, "Don't forget to wipe [the paintbrush] off each time." Now I have painted scenery before and this doesn't make sense to me - if she is painting the oak tree brown, why would she need to wipe the paintbrush off constantly? Even if she was painting the multicolored flats that we see in the background, that still wouldn't make sense because she wouldn't dip her brush into each bucket and go crazy painting all kinds of colors at once! On a related note, how many people does it take to paint an oak tree?!

The bathroom scene with Rayanne and Sharon - Rayanne is dressed very similarly to Angela. The two most obvious things are the denim vest (which we have seen Angela wear before, bu never Rayanne - this outfit is downright conservative compared to what she usually wears, especially considering what she wore to her audition) and her hair which looks like everyone else's for once. Instead of all the crazy braids and barrettes, her hair is all down with a half ponytail. Upon closer inspection, we see that she is wearing cross earrings (symbolism since she seems to think that she is martyring herself?) but she is not wearing her usual lipstick or black eyeliner. Later when she shows up at Angela's house and talks to Patty, she has her blonde streak in a barrette and her half ponytail has become a messy bun, but her hair is still plain and unadorned. For more hair discussion, see the hair as a metaphor thread. Later when she talk to Rickie after English class, she is again dressed similarly to Angela - straight hair with just a headband, overalls, and a multicolored cardigan that is similar to Angela's bright jacket.

Sharon, on the other hand, has on a hideous vest in the bathroom! Are those grapes or flowers?! Rayanne is the aggressor in this conversation, accusing Sharon, "So, congratulations, your dream came true. Now you've got an iron-clad, perfect excuse never to talk to me again. You should be celebrating." Under the guise of her aggression, however, she is testing the waters to see if Sharon will take Angela's side or still be Rayanne's friend (since at this point Rickie has obviously taken Angela's side).

Rayanne is too busy feeling sorry for herself to try to understand Angela's side. Rayanne whines to Rickie, "So, how long are the two of you gonna keep this up?...The silent treatment." When Rickie pointedly asks her, "Rayanne, what exact reaction did you expect?...No, I mean it, Rayanne! What did you expect her to feel like?" she replies, "She didn't even hear my side!" To be fair though, we haven't seen Rayanne make any attempt whatsoever to explain her side to Angela. As far as we know, Rayanne has been avoiding Angela since the day after it happened. The first time Rayanne approaches Angela, it's to say, "What the hell are you talking about? You don't drink." She doesn't try to apologize or explain what happened. Instead, she says, "Well, I got the part. I would never have gotten it if it wasn't for you," and then dissolves into self pity saying, "You lost nothing, Angela. You lost a lousy, selfish friend, a guy you never really had...you lost nothing!...I lost a really good friend - I lost everything."

After Rayanne sees the cast list and Angela ignores her, she almost drops her bag, letting it dangle from her hand as she walks down the hallway alone. William has a great analysis of Rayanne dropping her bag earlier at the Our Town audition.

I know it's a little wrong, but I love seeing Brian freak out with he sees Jordan coming down the hall.

Hallie tells Graham, "Look, we're about to become partners. We have to tell each other the truth, or this is never gonna work." Interesting and insightful considering all the truths that Graham has kept from Patty for the past few months. Once Hallie tells Graham to be honest, he complies, saying, "Nothing...it's just.... You know, you can be a real pain in the ass?" Was he just waiting for permission to be honest all this time?


Camille refers to "that Hallie person" the way that Patty used to refer to "that Rayanne person" and "this Rickie."

I laughed when I saw Camille eatinc rice cakes with peanut butter. Ahhh, rice cakes!

Why did Jordan approach Angela with the excuse of giving her pen back? And why did he suddenly become so principled when she said she didn't remember lending it to him, demanding it back?

In contrast to Rayanne mimicking Angela's appearance in this episode, Angela copies Rayanne's hair and mannerisms when she practically attacks Corey. She has small braids framing her face and the rest of her hair is loosely crimped. She also has on darker lipstick than usual. I really felt for her when she explodes, "Why? Is there something really wrong with me?" when Corey pushes he away.

Rickie is beginning to dress more like Mr. Katimski - instead of the bright shirts and vests he used to wear, now he is wearing more muted colors and cardigans (the beige ensemble).

When Patty tells Graham about the guy she slept with in college, she sits on the toilet like a little kid - her feet drawn up, her knees in front of her. Once she finishes the story, she abandons the position. Maybe confessing reminds her of being small, young, and immature? As lame as it may be, I love when she flushes the toilet as Graham is in the shower!

This episode's phrase: "it is enough to drive a sane person crazy!" First Hallie accuses Graham of it, then he says the same thing about her to Patty.

Mr. Katimski tells Rayanne to stop acting, but she is doing the same thing (imitating Angela) that won her the part in the first place. Once Mr. Katimski tells her to imagine how devastated she would feel if life as she knew it was over, she sees the parallels and indeed stops acting (because as Angela told Rickie, "I don't have to guess."). Again, Rayanne has straight hair, overalls, no eyeliner - still emulating Angela.
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Post by meggrrrl » May 5th 2003, 6:57 pm

In the scene where Halle dropps by while Patty and Camille are organizing for the clothing drive, I noticed that Camille doesn't seem to espeically dislike Halle until she hears her on the phone with Graham. The way Halle sounds like a high schooler talking to her crush, I can't blame Camille for getting suspicious - and it's sweet how Camille really seems to have this protective instinct towards Patty. Wasn't there talk about how Patty was a year younger than Camille? Or am I making that up?

This episode is one that is espeically dear to me, becuase I've done this - been the Rayanne in this sitation, not once but twice. I've never been able to watch the episode from Angela's point of view, really. The moment that makes me teary every single time is when Rayanne is saying "you lost nothing" - that whole speech. I know exactly how that feels. To be standing there feeling like a piece of s**t, lower than s**t, and begging the person to forgive you. Or at least view you for the s**t that you are and move on - realize that you (me) and the guy are so low that we're not even worth being upset over.

I had never noticed before how many, many overalls there are in this episode! I can't think of any significance other than they were pretty trendy at the time, but still. When the kids were in wardrobe, didn't it seem like a bit much? Even at the time, I remember thinking that Sharon's outfit with the sweater under overalls was the worst outfit I'd seen on the series. I'd never even heard of someone wearing a sweater under overalls. How yucky.
Why did Jordan approach Angela with the excuse of giving her pen back? And why did he suddenly become so principled when she said she didn't remember lending it to him, demanding it back?
This scene is so similar to the one in the final episode where he is trying to apologise to her. I think that is what is happening here. He has no idea how to connect to her, so this is his embarassing attempt. i always smile when Angela says "no" - it's such a satisfyingly defiant "no." I love it. And I love that he took the pen out of his mouth to give to her. Yuck!
Rickie is beginning to dress more like Mr. Katimski - instead of the bright shirts and vests he used to wear, now he is wearing more muted colors and cardigans (the beige ensemble).
Rickie must not have any money to speak of - is he using Mr. Katimsky's clothes?
As lame as it may be, I love when she flushes the toilet as Graham is in the shower!
Ooooh, I hate that! It seems so mean (yet very Patty-esque!) - she's so untrustful of Graham. She says and does a lot of things that I would never say or do with my husband. She's very disrespectful of him as a person and seems to want to keep him at arms length in a way. I mean, like when he wants her to talk to Halle and she says "you can't tell her yourself?" I'd never say that - how rude! Patty is a really prickly person. Hmmmm, much like Halle. When Graham and Halle are in the restaraunt arguing, I get the sense that Graham is teasing Halle when he says "show me the damn prospectives" - he doesn't seem genuinely caught up in the fight. But Halle counters by walking out - she is really mad. It's not just banter with her. Maybe this is because she's more emotionally involved in their relationship than he is, she is the one who is apt to get really upset. Graham handles all the overly-passionate women in his life by keeping a sense of humor about them.

On the subject of Graham, they sure teased us with just barely a glimpse of his chest! LOL Oh, and my husband NEVER gets that excited when I bring him a new work shirt! Hee hee!

Meg

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Post by TomSpeed » May 5th 2003, 9:06 pm

I want to watch "Betrayal" one more time before I post. However, I like the point Candygirl makes about Rickie's changing appearance. The wild clothes and makeup he used to wear are gone. Corey also dresses more conseratively in this episode than he did in "Life of Brian." The obvious reason thematically is that Corey's sexuality was in question in the earlier episode. In this episode, he is clearly portrayed as not being gay. Of course, he doesn't seem to pick up on Angela's attraction for him. OK, it's been awhile since I've watched the episode all of the way through in one sitting. So, I'm going to do that now. I'll post some stuff later.
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Patty: If Rayanne's not seeing you, and we're not seeing you, who is seeing you?
Graham: And how much of you?
Angela: Dad!
Graham: Oh, I'm sorry! I asked a question about your life, didn't I? Woah, what came over me?
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Post by TomSpeed » May 5th 2003, 11:18 pm

I love the opening scene -- Angela dancing to "Blister in the Sun." She shows energy and enthusiasm, things that she seemed to be missing previously. I've jumped around like she does myself. The fact that she is able to think about another boy than Jordan must be liberating for her. She can move on her with her life. However, her dream about Corey is only the first step. People can't immediately stop caring for someone. Her feelings for Jordan simply can't disappear overnight. She blows out of proportion her sense of freedom. I think she truly does have some feelings for Corey. But there are only seeds. Her feelings for Jordan are trees in a forest. Jordan's presence causes her to go overboard in her pursuit of Corey. Part of her actions, even before Jordan and Rayanne sleep together, is caused by the fact that she wants to show Jordan that other men can desire her, even if he doesn't. She's telling Jordan that she doesn't need him.

Blindness is an important theme in this episode. Angela is blind to how Jordan really feels about her. It's clear that Jordan loves her. But he feels compelled to reject her. His statement that he isn't drunk enough to Rayanne is edifying. He'd have to be pretty drunk to forget how he's blown things with Angela. We must take his feelings with a grain of salt. We haven't really seen Angela and Jordan together that much recently. However, we did learn in a previous episode that they were spending so much time together that Rayanne started feeling jealous.

Angela is also blind to how Rickie feels about Corey. His statements make it clear that he stills has feelings for him. Rickie says, "Join the club," when Angela says she had an erotic dream about Corey. Rickie invites himself to help out with the play in an obvious attempt to be with Corey. Preparing for the play echoes arranging to get to the World Happiness Dance in "Life of Brian." Someone will be the third wheel.

Angela is also blind to Rayanne's feelings for her. Rayanne's telling Angela that she is studying her and incorporating how Angela acts in her acting is significant. It's only natural to pick up the mannerisms of people you admire.

Brian is pretty funny in this episode. He reminds me of how I was in high school too much. "Where do people hang out?" Brian says. He's spent so much time studying and obsessing about Angela that he has no idea what his classmates do for fun. In a way, it's kind of sad that he has no friends outside of the core group. I was like that in high school. I was a self-contained unit. Part of it was by choice. Part of it was also an unwillingness to take risks. Most of it was just being shy. Like most shy people, Brian feels comfortable behind the camera lens. The camera confers on him the ability to observe things from the sidelines. He is not in the picture, but he can put himself in a position to take the picture. I don't think he would go to Louie's without the camera.

Why does Brian film Rayanne and Jordan hooking up? Maybe he is naturally curious to see what happens. He feels comfortable behind the camera. He's observing without being part of the action. Does he film them because of his feelings for Angela? Here is rock hard proof that Jordan isn't worthy of Angela. Why doesn't he tell Angela what happened himself instead of telling Sharon? Doesn't he realize that Sharon will tell Angela? Sorry, I just have a lot of questions about this sequence.

Anyway, back to Brian being funny -- Angela surprising him while he is shirtless and jamming to some tunes in his bedroom is pretty funny. The poor boy has such a bird chest. I definitely looked like him body-wise during most of high school. Angela's giggling over his being flustered at her seeing him shirtless is priceless. When is the last time Angela saw him shirtless? Brian might have dreamed about having sex with Angela. But being partly clad in her presence is too much for him.

In one way, Angela's entering Brian's room and taking the videotape from his backpack is like Brian answering the telephone at the Chase house. Both of them display a sense of intimacy with each other. Brian's urging of Angela not to watch the videotape because it would only make her feel worse is really touching. His depth of caring for her really shows.

Why do Rayanne and Jordan have sex? Is it because they are both dealing with their feelings for Angela? Are they just available to one another at just the right time? Patty draws a parallel between Rayanne and herself. But are the two situations alike?

Okay, I guess that's enough for this post. I'll probably be back later.
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Patty: If Rayanne's not seeing you, and we're not seeing you, who is seeing you?
Graham: And how much of you?
Angela: Dad!
Graham: Oh, I'm sorry! I asked a question about your life, didn't I? Woah, what came over me?
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Jordan and Rayanne

Post by Summoned » May 6th 2003, 10:02 am

For what it's worth, I always thought that Jordan and Rayanne made more sense as a couple than Angela and Jordan. Both of them had learning curves to move through, and they might not have worked as a couple, but I always had a deeply pessimistic view of Angela and Jordan together. The hesitation in getting into Jordan's car, and the obvious guilt Jordan and Rayanne displayed the next morning still is a function of a sense of betrayal of Angela in this reading, but that sense of betrayal is not warranted by the circumstances IMO. What hurts Angela may very well be what is right for Jordan/Rayanne, and having someone else choose what is right for you, what is allowed seems unfairly limiting. The guilt that Jordan and Rayanne display is a tribute to their loyalty to Angela, not a demonstration of how they failed her.

The similarities between Jordan and Rayanne -- father issues, substance usage, obvious awareness of the possibilities of using their attractiveness to their advantage, and, perhaps reading too much into it, a sense of distance from a conventional middle-class sensibility -- are such that I find them a much more compelling option as a couple than Jordan and Angela. Jordan and Angela may make for better television/drama, but Jordan and Rayanne make more logical sense.

Not every relationship that works starts with the tortured, unexpressed longing that makes up Angela and Jordan. Putting Jordan and Rayanne together would have provided a great contrast to a possible Brian and Angela relationship, who had the similarities that Jordan and Angela lacked, most notably in articularity, in episodes that were not to be. A little simplistic, perhaps, but there is more than one way to create dramatic tension.

And, on a different note, the cinema verite yearbook video is exactly the "disturbing book" that Angela predicted long ago.
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Re: Jordan and Rayanne

Post by TomSpeed » May 6th 2003, 10:33 am

Summoned wrote:For what it's worth, I always thought that Jordan and Rayanne made more sense as a couple than Angela and Jordan. Both of them had learning curves to move through, and they might not have worked as a couple, but I always had a deeply pessimistic view of Angela and Jordan together. The hesitation in getting into Jordan's car, and the obvious guilt Jordan and Rayanne displayed the next morning still is a function of a sense of betrayal of Angela in this reading, but that sense of betrayal is not warranted by the circumstances IMO. What hurts Angela may very well be what is right for Jordan/Rayanne, and having someone else choose what is right for you, what is allowed seems unfairly limiting. The guilt that Jordan and Rayanne display is a tribute to their loyalty to Angela, not a demonstration of how they failed her.

The similarities between Jordan and Rayanne -- father issues, substance usage, obvious awareness of the possibilities of using their attractiveness to their advantage, and, perhaps reading too much into it, a sense of distance from a conventional middle-class sensibility -- are such that I find them a much more compelling option as a couple than Jordan and Angela. Jordan and Angela may make for better television/drama, but Jordan and Rayanne make more logical sense.

Not every relationship that works starts with the tortured, unexpressed longing that makes up Angela and Jordan. Putting Jordan and Rayanne together would have provided a great contrast to a possible Brian and Angela relationship, who had the similarities that Jordan and Angela lacked, most notably in articularity, in episodes that were not to be. A little simplistic, perhaps, but there is more than one way to create dramatic tension.

And, on a different note, the cinema verite yearbook video is exactly the "disturbing book" that Angela predicted long ago.
Great points! A Rayanne/Jordan relationship makes more sense than a Angela/Jordan relationship. Opposites might attract, but relationships between opposites tend to be wracked with problems. A Angela/Brian relationship does make sense. However, I don't think Brian is ready for a relationship with Angela, or anyone else for that matter, right now. Maybe he gets closer to being ready by the last episode. And as much as I would like there to be a sexual attraction between Brian and Angela, it just isn't there. Or it is very much on the back burner at this point. It's a big leap to make from considering someone a friend and neighbor to considering that same person as a potential lover. Maybe Angela's eyes are opened to romantic possibilities with Brian in the last episode. Given time, I think Angela and Brian could develop something. The wild card, of course, is Jordan. We see in this episode that Angela cannot simply wake up one morning and be over him. For anything to develop between her and Brian, she will need to choose not to pursue Jordan.

I love your comment about the candid video being like the yearbook Angela prophesized. Brian captured reality. And reality isn't always pretty.
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Patty: If Rayanne's not seeing you, and we're not seeing you, who is seeing you?
Graham: And how much of you?
Angela: Dad!
Graham: Oh, I'm sorry! I asked a question about your life, didn't I? Woah, what came over me?
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Post by TomSpeed » May 6th 2003, 1:30 pm

candygirl wrote: Rayanne later tells Jordan that she only auditioned because it was Angela's idea - notice the shift in the dynamics of the Rickie/Rayanne/Angela relationship. Angela used to do things that Rayanne told her to do - Rayanne coached her in how to approach Jordan, something that Angela would not have had the nerve to do on her own. Now Angela is coaching Rayanne for a part in the school play, something that Rayanne would not have dared to do on her own. Interestingly, why does Angela think that auditioning for the play is a good idea for Rayanne? Does she see this as a way to publicly redeem Rayanne's reputation as an exhibitionist after the Vertigo debacle? Angela is sure to tell Rayanne how proud she is of her - maybe Angela also sees this as an opportunity to redeem herself for missing Rayanne's debut with Frozen Embyros/Between Names.
Rayanne probably mentions to Angela that she thinks it might be fun to act in the play. She probably phrases it something like this: "Wouldn't it be hilarious if ..." Rayanne seems to have a natural desire to perform in public. Angela probably picks up on this desire. Angela shows her true friendship by encouraging Rayanne to pursue her desire. It's not clear whether Angela has any previous acting experience, but she can probably honestly tell Rayanne if her acting is any good. Most people can tell good acting from bad acting. Good acting just sounds better. As a friend, Angela is in a much better position to support Rayanne in the pursuit of her desire to do something that might be considered frivolous than Patty is in with Graham. Patty knows that Graham likes to cook and wants to open the restaurant, but the stakes are much higher for Graham than for Rayanne.
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Patty: If Rayanne's not seeing you, and we're not seeing you, who is seeing you?
Graham: And how much of you?
Angela: Dad!
Graham: Oh, I'm sorry! I asked a question about your life, didn't I? Woah, what came over me?
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Post by TomSpeed » May 7th 2003, 11:25 am

To continue from my last post...

I agree that Angela helps Rayanne practice acting for her audition because she did not fully support Rayanne's effort to sing in Jordan's band. The night when Rayanne almost died is getting buried in the past. It's ironic that Rayanne sleeps with Jordan just as Angela and Rayanne are getting closer. Granted, they are not as close as they once were, but they seem more comfortable together when Rayanne auditions for the play.

Angela's telling Rayanne that acting is like lying and who is a better liar than Rayanne is interesting. Is Angela speaking about her experience with Rayanne? Or is Angela simply commenting on Rayanne's reputation? I don't really remember Rayanne lying to Angela.
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Patty: If Rayanne's not seeing you, and we're not seeing you, who is seeing you?
Graham: And how much of you?
Angela: Dad!
Graham: Oh, I'm sorry! I asked a question about your life, didn't I? Woah, what came over me?
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Post by TomSpeed » May 7th 2003, 12:44 pm

candygirl wrote:At Louie's, Rayanne tells Brian to get the camera out of her face - for once, she does not want to be the center of attention because she is too busy wallowing in self-pity. Why is she convinced that she performed so poorly? And why is this what drives her to break her New Year's resolution to quit drinking? Is it really her belief that she can never BE Angela? That she has failed in her attempt to convince an audience that she can be sweet and innocent?
Creative people tend to be their worst critics. Nothing that they do is good enough. I do this myself with my writing. I think everything I write sucks. I can get pretty edgy when I write, too. I want what I write to be perfect, but I never think anything I do is perfect. I don't drink that much, but I smoke more while writing. Rayanne seems to live life on the edge. Acting is probably hard for her, but she wants to act. She feels pressure, so she turns to drinking, which is how she compensates for being under pressure. She probably wildly succeeds during the audition (she must have done well since she gets the part), but she can't see it.
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Patty: If Rayanne's not seeing you, and we're not seeing you, who is seeing you?
Graham: And how much of you?
Angela: Dad!
Graham: Oh, I'm sorry! I asked a question about your life, didn't I? Woah, what came over me?
http://www.last.fm/user/TomSpeed/

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Post by TomSpeed » May 7th 2003, 1:20 pm

candygirl wrote:The conversation between Rayanne and Jordan at Louie's - "I'm drunk." "Yeah, me too." I don't doubt that they are drunk - they are - but me thinks they doth protest too much, which is pretty typical of teen drinkers (how many times have you heard the mating call, "I'm soooooo drunk"?). Although it does happen pretty spontaneously while they are drunk, they are both still aware. They don't just give in to their hormones and start humping on the hood of the car - they break off the kiss, open the door, look around self-consciously, and then climb into the car. The next day, Rayanne tells Jordan, "My head is, like, pounding," then gives him a guilty sideways glance as she says, "I was really out of it last night," to excuse what happened.
I think Rayanne finds Jordan to be attractive and desirable. She probably has kind of wanted Jordan for a long time. But she didn't act on her feelings because Angela liked Jordan. Now Angela says (although Rayanne doesn't totally believe her) that she is over Jordan. The fact that Rayanne and Jordan are drinking doesn't excuse what they do, but it probably helps make sleeping together easier. Clearly, given the actions you describe, they know what they are doing could be seen in bad light, but they do it anyway. The drinking becomes an easy scapegoat. Jordan and Rayanne are attracted to each other, and they choose to have sex. Angela's saying that she is over Jordan and Rayanne and Jordan's drinking are factors, but Rayanne and Jordan are in still in control.
TomSpeed

Patty: If Rayanne's not seeing you, and we're not seeing you, who is seeing you?
Graham: And how much of you?
Angela: Dad!
Graham: Oh, I'm sorry! I asked a question about your life, didn't I? Woah, what came over me?
http://www.last.fm/user/TomSpeed/

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Post by Guest » May 16th 2003, 8:11 am

I think they would have had sex whether they were drunk or not.Rayanne envies Angela for being innocent and all,she knows how Jordan feels about Angela,so she pretends that she is Angela by sleeping with him.
Jordan sees her talking to Corey, he is obviously jelaous and wants to punish her for it.And what's the better way to punish her than to sleep with her best friend?
Tomspeed said that they were attracted to each other,but I don't think Jordan really saw her as an attractive person at that time,he just saw an oppurtinity to get laid and screw Angela over at the same time.Rayanne sees guys like sexual objects,she definately finds Jordan attractive but doesn't really care,I think she really hates him and blames him because she considers him to be the reason she and Angela grew apart.
Altough drinking lifts our sexual tensions I don't think that was THE reason they had sex.

Remember when,the next day he asks her if she got the part or not(sth. like that ), if he was so wasted how does he even remember what they talked about?

Oh yeah, when Jordan sees Corey in the hall he turns away from him, like he can't bear to look at him, like Corey is the reason why he screwed up so bad.That's Jordan's reason for sleeping with Rayanne .He couldn't handle the fact that Angela is moving on with some other guy.Come to think of it, he is a very selfish person, not much different from Rayanne.

Why he approaches Rayanne in the hall?He probably just wants to make sure that she won't blabbe it to someone( knowing how she is), because he doesn't want Angela to find out, but of course Brian is at the right place in the right time.

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Post by Megs » May 16th 2003, 9:26 am

Anonymous wrote:Oh yeah, when Jordan sees Corey in the hall he turns away from him, like he can't bear to look at him, like Corey is the reason why he screwed up so bad.That's Jordan's reason for sleeping with Rayanne .He couldn't handle the fact that Angela is moving on with some other guy.Come to think of it, he is a very selfish person, not much different from Rayanne.

Why he approaches Rayanne in the hall?He probably just wants to make sure that she won't blabbe it to someone( knowing how she is), because he doesn't want Angela to find out, but of course Brian is at the right place in the right time.
Very good observations!
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Post by TomSpeed » May 16th 2003, 10:49 am

Anonymous wrote:I think they would have had sex whether they were drunk or not.Rayanne envies Angela for being innocent and all,she knows how Jordan feels about Angela,so she pretends that she is Angela by sleeping with him.
Jordan sees her talking to Corey, he is obviously jelaous and wants to punish her for it.And what's the better way to punish her than to sleep with her best friend?
Tomspeed said that they were attracted to each other,but I don't think Jordan really saw her as an attractive person at that time,he just saw an oppurtinity to get laid and screw Angela over at the same time.Rayanne sees guys like sexual objects,she definately finds Jordan attractive but doesn't really care,I think she really hates him and blames him because she considers him to be the reason she and Angela grew apart.
Altough drinking lifts our sexual tensions I don't think that was THE reason they had sex.

Remember when,the next day he asks her if she got the part or not(sth. like that ), if he was so wasted how does he even remember what they talked about?

Oh yeah, when Jordan sees Corey in the hall he turns away from him, like he can't bear to look at him, like Corey is the reason why he screwed up so bad.That's Jordan's reason for sleeping with Rayanne .He couldn't handle the fact that Angela is moving on with some other guy.Come to think of it, he is a very selfish person, not much different from Rayanne.

Why he approaches Rayanne in the hall?He probably just wants to make sure that she won't blabbe it to someone( knowing how she is), because he doesn't want Angela to find out, but of course Brian is at the right place in the right time.
I don't think that Jordan intentionally means to hurt Angela by sleeping with Rayanne. However, I agree that he probably sleeps with Rayanne because she is available when he wants to sleep with someone. So, he satisfies his needs with Rayanne. Angela's refusal to satisfy him plays a role in what happens, but I don't think Jordan is motivated by malice against Angela.

Rayanne might be pretending to be Angela. However, she is much like Jordan in that she can quickly take advantage of a sexual opportunity. Angela chooses to forgo sex with Jordan. I'm not so sure that Rayanne wants to be Angela. However, I think she does want Jordan -- a man that Angela owns in some way. She has been envious of Angela's home, family, and her relationship with Jordan. Sleeping with Jordan represents an attempt by Rayanne to have what is Angela's.

I think Jordan approaches Rayanne because he is unsure about how their relationship has changed since they have slept together. Are they now in a relationship? They mutually decide to act as if what happened didn't mean anything.

Jordan avoids Corey because Corey reminds him of Angela. He feels guilty about what happened.
TomSpeed

Patty: If Rayanne's not seeing you, and we're not seeing you, who is seeing you?
Graham: And how much of you?
Angela: Dad!
Graham: Oh, I'm sorry! I asked a question about your life, didn't I? Woah, what came over me?
http://www.last.fm/user/TomSpeed/

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