Angel

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grim4746
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Post by grim4746 » Feb 5th 2004, 8:29 am

I'm sure I'm in the minority here but I like the romances between Cordelia and Angel and between Buffy and Spike better than the one between Buffy and Angel. I didn't really see the same depth of emotion between Buffy and Angel as I did with the others. Certainly intense emotion but to me it always seemed like it was on the surface.

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Post by Natasha (candygirl) » Feb 5th 2004, 4:35 pm

I was never a big fan of Buffy and Angel together either. Aside from the poetic maudlin aspect of a slayer and a vampire being in love, their relationship didn't ring true for me either. I looked at it as Buffy's first love (which, if you look at other examples, say Angela and Jordan, may be intense but not always a good relationship) and Angel caring about her as much as he was capable of doing so. She was the first thing that made him care about anything after he got his soul back, which is a good thing, but it also reminded me of the classic recovery advice they give to addicts: don't trade one addiction for another (addicts are told not to become involved with a boyfriend/girlfriend for at least one year after they are sober). I'm not saying they didn't love each other - I believe they did, but just because two people love each other does not mean that they should be together.

As much as I absolutely hated Buffy's cookie dough analogy, it's true - you shouldn't look for relationships to fulfill or complete you. You have to know who you are and love who you are before you can truly give that love to someone else. Neither Buffy nor Angel knew who they were or really liked themselves when they were together. Buffy was only sixteen, a time when girls are inherently insecure. On top of all the typical teen angst, she had just learned about her destiny as a slayer. In S2, Kendra tells Buffy, "You talk about slaying like it's a job. It's not. It's who you are." It took her seven years to come to terms with exactly all that being a slayer entails.

Angel, on the other hand, saw Buffy as part of his journey for redemption. Even in Los Angeles, he still thinks of killing demons and helping humans as penance for what he has done. By S2 of AtS, he admits, "If there is no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do. Cause that's all there is. What we do, now, today. I fought for so long. For redemption, for a reward, finally just to beat the other guy, but... I never got it. All I wanna do is help. I wanna help because I don't think people should suffer, as they do. Because, if there is no bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness is the greatest thing in the world." In S4, he tells Faith, "I used to think that. That there'd be a point when I'd paid my dues. Our time is never up, Faith. We pay for everything." He, too, is coming to terms with who he is.

Are either of their cookies baked yet? I'd like to think that we continue to grow and change throughout our lives, but they are both much more secure in who they are by this point - a far cry from the Buffy and Angel who made googly eyes at each other during the first season of BtVS.

I'm a big supporter of relationships based on friendship, which is why although I wasn't a huge fan of Angel and Cordelia getting together, I preferred their journey getting to that point. As much as Buffy may still love Angel, Cordelia knows him on a deeper level than Buffy did. Cordelia saw him struggle with who he is, and he saw her grow from a shallow girl to a mature woman who chose to become part demon in order to keep helping people. Last night's episode reminded me how much more I liked their relationship. It was so wonderful to finally see the real Cordelia again - I couldn't stand her all of last season, which is probably why I wasn't overly upset when I found out that she wasn't coming back for S5.
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Post by fnordboy » Feb 5th 2004, 5:31 pm

candygirl wrote:I was never a big fan of Buffy and Angel together either.
First, I must say, great post candygirl :) And I agree with just about everything you said.

Secondly. I much more prefer the Buffy / Riley relationship too all others. :P :lol:






and yes, of course that was a ;)

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grim4746
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Post by grim4746 » Feb 5th 2004, 10:11 pm

candygirl wrote:although I wasn't a huge fan of Angel and Cordelia getting together, I preferred their journey getting to that point. As much as Buffy may still love Angel, Cordelia knows him on a deeper level than Buffy did. Cordelia saw him struggle with who he is, and he saw her grow from a shallow girl to a mature woman who chose to become part demon in order to keep helping people. Last night's episode reminded me how much more I liked their relationship.
I also agree with nearly everything you said in your post. I wasn't crazy about Angel and Cordelia together before either but last nights episode convinced me that it could have been truly great. But I'm not exactly heart broken that it won't be played out.
fnordboy wrote:Secondly. I much more prefer the Buffy / Riley relationship too all others. :-P :lol:
You are completely right. If there is anothert spin off it totally has to have Riley in it. Maybe he can team up with the surviving SITs. With Kennedy, Amanda and Riley, it couldn't be anything but a success. It can be like Team Knight Rider or VIP.

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Post by Natasha (candygirl) » Feb 5th 2004, 10:42 pm

Thanks guys :mrgreen:

Wow, just Kennedy and Riley is enough - they don't need even need Amanda. Funny because not long ago, I would have wanted Dawn to join their little Scooby Wannabe club, but a lot of my Dawn hatred faded once S5 was over. I really felt for her during S6, especially near the end when she quit whining, "You don't even want to be here" all the time. Since we barely saw her in S7 once the cheerleading episode aired, she didn't have too much opportunity to bug the crap outta me.

:D
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Post by grim4746 » Feb 5th 2004, 11:24 pm

ya Dawn grew on me too. Season 6 was a lot better for her, sometimes I even enjoyed her presence a bit. The same for season 7 but like you say we didn't see much of her. Thankfully what we did see of her was good. It's as though when Joss sifted out all the crappy parts of Dawn's character there were only about twenty lines of dialogue to last for the entire season.

And I keep forgetting to complain that they killed Cordelia and couldn't even appease the fans by letting us see Eve killed never ever to return. The episode was great but I think the viewers deserved that gift too. Hopefully she'll just be gone for good anyway but I doubt it.

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Post by Natasha (candygirl) » Feb 6th 2004, 6:07 am

I really don't understand how Eve is STILL alive. First of all, she has been working with Lindsay in secret. The senior partners have a lot of resources at their disposal, so even if they weren't able to see her with Lindsay, wouldn't they at least know that she was double-crossing them by using that nasty parasite on Angel? I guess that's assuming that the senior partners still believe that giving Angel the LA branch was the right call. *sigh* I just want Eve gone.

Cordelia kissed Angel at the end of the episode - does that mean she has passed the visions on to him?

When Wes said he could feel the spell working and he and Fred looked at each other, I wondered if the spell was working a little better than he intended. Instead of only revealing Lindsay, is it possible that the spell somehow also revealed the reality of what happened and they now know about Connor?

Spike said that Cordelia didn't taste astringent like a demon, but there was no visible blood or puncture wound after he attacked her, so did he really bite her? Does that mean she was no longer part demon? Was this all a fantasy dreamed up by Angel a la "Awakening"? Gah, I don't know why I'm trying to make sense of any of this. After all, I did watch the last few seasons of Buffy. I should just accept that ME makes up whatever they want using insane troll logic!

Funniest moment: watching Angel totally check out Cordelia's ass when she was walking out of the hospital room.
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Post by grim4746 » Feb 6th 2004, 9:07 am

My take on the insane troll logic is that Cordelia is some sort of higher being now and that while she was interacting with Angel and crew her human/part demon body was still in the hospital. Her new form is apparently non-demon or at least a form of demon Spike hasn't tasted before, and that heals quickly because I do think he actually bit her. And her new form allows her to take a corporeal form with a little help from the powers. Maybe Cordy is a in training to become one of the powers.

Eve? I don't know why she's still around. I disagree with Cordy calling her Lyla Junior. Lyla kicked ass, I miss her. At least they let us see Harmony smacking Eve around a bit, that was something but not enough.

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Post by JPP13 » Feb 8th 2004, 9:55 am

It's interesting to reflect upon when Tara left Buffy. Joss had sat her down months ahead of time, explained what he was doing and why.

Now, contrast that with CC. Joss never discussed it with her, ever. The prevailing talk over on TWOP is that he was mad she was pregnant, how it screwed up the storyline. I'd like to give JW more credit than that.

Joss, in several interviews talked about how if he ever had a date in high school, he never would have been able to make Buffy. Well, Cordy represented every girl which I'm sure gave him the cold shoulder. I obviously don't know what happened, but something did.

Why else would he treat Tara and CC so differently?

One of the problems with Angel now, is that Angel himself really isn't grounded to anyone. Cordelia was the link to Buffy, who he had known for years now. She was there in the beginning, they had grown close, etc. She was the link to Sunnydale, as well as to Angel Investigations.

Now, you have Lorne, who was a one trick pony 4 years ago, and really just takes up space. I like Fred, but she's eye candy, without a history with Angel. Spike does have a history, but he was rushed in, in a ratings move. Gunn, yes he is close to Angel, but again without the emotional attachment. Wes comes the closest, but the nature of the character requires some seperation.

Killing Cordy off, and frankly her character assasination the last few years was pointless. I'd love to hear JW explain, honestly, why he did it. I doubt we'll ever hear the real story.

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Post by Nostradamus » Feb 9th 2004, 12:06 am

More on insane troll logic:

If Cordy had passed on the visions there would have been a flash of light or sparkle or something.

Spike did bite Cordy; the marks could be briefly seen.

Cordy was either already dead or died during the episode; TPTB let her materialize to help out and wrap things up with Angel. The episode was not a dream, but Cordy pulled a little slight-of-hand to ease her final hours with him. Had he known of her death earlier, he might have been too distraught to deal with Lindsay.

Cordelia's parting comments leave open the possibility of future "ghost" appearances, but they could also mean that she knows Angel will die someday, rather than spend eternity in his present vampiric limbo. That may or may not go along with Shanshu.

I initially had some hope for depth in the Eve character, but now I must concur that she serves no purpose but to annoy us. Let Harmony bite her already.

:lol:
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Natasha (candygirl)
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Post by Natasha (candygirl) » Feb 11th 2004, 2:23 am

The S3 insert says that the S4 release will be this fall. Very vague, but hopefully September!
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Post by JPP13 » Feb 12th 2004, 6:47 pm

Nazis? Puppets? I :shock: 'm outta here....

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Post by lance » Feb 12th 2004, 9:42 pm

candygirl wrote:The S3 insert says that the S4 release will be this fall. Very vague, but hopefully September!
Interesting, I got no insert at all in my set. I too look foward to Season 4 this September.


Okay here is my two cents. For whatever reason Joss killed off Cordy's character. I thnk there was a tremendous amount of story still left for her character to explore. I also agree that now Angel seems to be adrift, going through the motions of barely solving the problems that arise. Heck, he doesn't even have control of who comes or goes from the building.

How many times are we going to hear this season that Angel has lost his way? Enough already, message received. Now, Angel, find your way.

Since episode 5 of this year, the stories have been better. I would like to see Angel hook back up with the powers that be, somehow.

Candygirl, awesome post btw. Your analysis of romance in the Whedon universe was most excellent.

I do miss Lyla's character. Just starting to get interesting when killed off.

-LanceMan

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Post by Natasha (candygirl) » Feb 13th 2004, 2:05 am

JPP13 wrote:Nazis? Puppets? I :shock: 'm outta here....
I have been exercising a remarkable amount of self-restraint this season and avoiding spoilers (although I accidentally found out about Cordy's death a few weeks before the episode aired :evil: ) so I didn't know about the Nazis until last week's previews. Ditto for the puppets. All I can say is eh?
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Look, if this is weird for you, being tutored? I don't mind helping you a little longer.
You could have sex with me if you really want to help...I guess that's a "no"?

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Post by JPP13 » Feb 13th 2004, 11:17 pm

Just read on numerous sites that Angel has been cancelled. Wrap up this season, then that is it. WB has put out a press release.

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