Jordon & Angela

General discussion about the nineteen episodes of "My So-Called Life". Note: Our episode guide can be found here.
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Natasha (candygirl)
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Post by Natasha (candygirl) » Jan 8th 2003, 3:19 pm

Nostradamus wrote:Hmm, I don't recall learning any important life skills in PE; perhaps I forgot them all after being repeatedly beaned in the head with dodgeballs, softballs, footballs, basketballs, and pretty much every other spheroid man has ever built. I never did figure out why I was supposed to study calculus, unless the boredom induces a Zen-like meditative state. And despite acing every spelling test I ever took, I still need a dictionary at my side every time I write these rambling contrarian posts...
I don't know that every moment of school is supposed to translate to a long term life skill, but it is important to stimulate kids' minds while they are still functioning at a high capacity. I have debated the merit of every required class and although many of the things I was forced to do have been long forgotten, I have to admit it's important for kids to take PE (they keep talking about how out of shape American kids are) - and this is coming from someone who hated middle school PE. (Yes, let's run again! And the obstacle course? Yes ma'am! Forced supervised showers? Okay!)

As far as actual book learning, obviously it's important to learn the basics so that you can read and add, but beyond the fundamentals it is also important to learn the concepts and apply them, even if you don't necessarily use them later. Calculus taught me to think a certain way, as well as how to solve problems. Once I got the hang of it, I kind of liked it. There was a certain satisfaction from going through a whole page of squiggles and numbers and coming up with an answer. I am also one of those sick people who loves to do research and write papers. I am ill. Especially considering that I don't do math or write papers for a living. Good use of my education?

:wink:
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Post by sine » Jan 8th 2003, 8:35 pm

K-man wrote:I actually enjoyed calculus. Once we started graphing the crunched-up numbers. Maybe I have a visual thing when it comes to learning. Algebra was another story though.
Learning calculus or real analysis can gain a lot from the use of visual aids. Although alone probably giving a little one-dimensional picture the graphical interpretation of certain consepts (functions as curves, derivatives as slopes or integrals as areas etc.) is really effective in bringing math "down to earth" and certainly was the way I grasped things and that helped to pass the courses. And in calculus courses we finally found real use for those fancy graphical calculators :D

Kids, don't let Brian Krakow confuse you, calculus is fun! :)
Candygirl wrote:Interestingly, some schools have done away with spelling bees because "it makes the kids who aren't good spellers feel bad." Using that line of logic, we should get rid of PE for kids who can't run fast, math for kids who aren't inclined to eventually learn calculus, and all classes involving reading or writing for kids like Jordan.
I see your point that some things shouldn't be abandoned just because they make people who aren't good at them feel bad. But I think that the quotation you wrote bears the meaning that in the case of spelling bees it's the losing (or not winning) that causes the hurt -- not uneven learning but competition. Competition can boost some people's learning process but it can certainly make learning more difficult and less satisfactory for some others. Should competition have any place in school or other fields of education? I think it shouldn't. The place to start removing this artificial and pseudo-evolutionary concept from the educational system could for instance be grading: abandonment of all grading based on Gaussian distribution, perhaps the removal of whole grading itself -- too imaginative and utopian step to take?
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Natasha (candygirl)
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Post by Natasha (candygirl) » Jan 8th 2003, 9:17 pm

sine wrote:I see your point that some things shouldn't be abandoned just because they make people who aren't good at them feel bad. But I think that the quotation you wrote bears the meaning that in the case of spelling bees it's the losing (or not winning) that causes the hurt -- not uneven learning but competition. Competition can boost some people's learning process but it can certainly make learning more difficult and less satisfactory for some others. Should competition have any place in school or other fields of education?
I see what you are saying about competition. Normally you can keep your grades to yourself. Remember all those teachers saying, "You grades are no one's business but your own" but there was always some kid asking, "What did you get on the quiz?" It seems like every aspect of education is now some sort of competition.

At my middle school, we were forced to run. Every day. And I sucked at it. Don't get me wrong - I was physically fit and went to dance classes three or four times a week. I could do sit ups and stretch, but I hated running AND I sucked at it. Running is not like a math test - you can see who is ahead of you and who is behind you at all times while you're running laps around the basketball courts for 30 minutes a day. No matter how hard I tried, I always ran a 10:20 mile. But did that make me feel bad? Not any worse than the physical pain of actually running.

I think that the competitive spirit in schools goes hand in hand with the general attitude these days - sports are about competition, reality shows are about competition, music and tv are about competition, school and work are about competition, success is about competition. People believe these things, and, in turn, this attitude affects the educational system. Should we do away with the Super Bowl and Survivor and even money because of the accompanying competitiveness that are now inherent in our society? Not necessarily, but I do think that we need to examine how far the effects of competition have trickled down in our society. Competition has been around for a long time - from the head caveman to the early Olympics to jousting, etc. - but it seems as though it's overwhelming now. Maybe it's just because I didn't see it that way as a child - that is part of growing up though: recognizing the flaws and issues that exist and struggling to find realistic solutions.
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Post by Natasha (candygirl) » Jan 8th 2003, 9:20 pm

P.S. Calculus IS fun! The day that I realized I knew how to use almost every single button on my graphing calculator - wow. Seriously.
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Post by SanDeE* » Jan 8th 2003, 11:04 pm

I'm sorry everyone, I like you all, but there is no possible way anyone could ever convince me that Calculus is fun. I took it in high school. I tried SO HARD everyday on my homework and studying for tests. I ended up with a B, but only because I did decently on the last test. I hated Calculus. I went nuts trying to solve problems and use my calculator. And now, I don't even need any of it. I don't have to take any more math classes EVER again! THAT is a truly great feeling. I love being a musician!

(Although there is math in music, it's not nearly to the degree of Calculus or Algebra. It's not pull-your-hair-out frustrating.)
Um, in my room, one seam is a little off and I stare at it constantly. It's, like, destroying me.

~~Kristin~~

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Post by His_Girl_Red » Aug 13th 2007, 8:20 pm

Megs wrote:
candygirl wrote: And in "Self Esteem" when Shane asks, "Who you got in there?" (knowing that it is most likely Angela), Jordan responds, "No one - just a girl. Shut up!"
Did anyone else notice that in that scene, after Shane asks who Jordan has in there, Jordan says "No one", and Shane goes, "Rayanne?" And Jordan says, "Yeah. Shut up." Foreshadowing, anyone?
If you look at the transcripts of that episode and REALLY listen when it's on, Shane says, "Oh yeah?". Not "Rayanne". This is why Jordan says, "Yeah." He tells Shane to shut up because Shane's pushing him and making kissy faces at him. Just thought you oughtta know. :)
"I was goin' nowhere,
goin' nowhere fast.
Drownin' in my memories,
livin' in the past.
Everythin' looked black 'til I found her.
She's all I need, and that's what I said.
Oooh, oooh, oooh, I call her `Red'."

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Post by ltomsett » Aug 28th 2007, 12:09 pm

I love it when people are on this thread. I found My so called life again on tv links a few months ago and my husband bought the dvd box set for me a few weeks later. I didn't expect for it to have the same impact on me as it did all them years ago most things age but this doesnt.

I love the whole Angela and Jordan scenario and I am too a HR and I know we all have our different interpretations of what we ALL saw but I want to believe that he truly had feelings for her.

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Re:

Post by Christina_in_color » Jan 2nd 2008, 4:45 am

ltomsett wrote:I love the whole Angela and Jordan scenario and I am too a HR and I know we all have our different interpretations of what we ALL saw but I want to believe that he truly had feelings for her.
Me too. I had a conversation with my closest friend on New Years while we waited for the clock to strike midnight. For some reason, the conversation steered towards men and our failed relationships. She told me that I need a "good" man, a "nice" man. Since I've been rewatching MSCL episodes recently, I thought about how her advice relates to my Jordan Catalano infatuation. Is he really the type of man that I would want to take home for dinner with my family? Does Angela have an infatuation with a "bad" guy? If I were Angela, would I have chosen to forgive Jordan for being distant? My friend also likes the show. She thinks Brian "deserves" Angela, and Jordan is the wrong kind of man for any smart girl. I have to disagree.

We are all flawed in our own ways. Jordan is the type of guy that I feel deserves another chance, not just in love but in life. One of my favorite moments in the series is when Jordan flippantly uses the word "ironic" to describe Patty's ex-boyfriend, as if it's a word in his permanent vocabularly, when he had just learned its meaning from Brian earlier that day. Brian didn't dumb down the definition for him, but he was perceptive enough to pick it up. I have to believe that Jordan was moving in the right direction as a decent human being. Brian has known Angela for almost his entire life, and so it's natural for his connection with Angela to be deeper than hers with Jordan. Given the chance, Jordan would have become more of a man with Angela by his side. Or at least I like to think so. I'm a hopeless romantic, too, and I can't believe that Jordan spent all that time with Angela without having a true connection to her.

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Re: Re:

Post by His_Girl_Red » Jan 2nd 2008, 11:33 pm

Christina_in_color wrote:
ltomsett wrote:I love the whole Angela and Jordan scenario and I am too a HR and I know we all have our different interpretations of what we ALL saw but I want to believe that he truly had feelings for her.
Me too. I had a conversation with my closest friend on New Years while we waited for the clock to strike midnight. For some reason, the conversation steered towards men and our failed relationships. She told me that I need a "good" man, a "nice" man. Since I've been rewatching MSCL episodes recently, I thought about how her advice relates to my Jordan Catalano infatuation. Is he really the type of man that I would want to take home for dinner with my family? Does Angela have an infatuation with a "bad" guy? If I were Angela, would I have chosen to forgive Jordan for being distant? My friend also likes the show. She thinks Brian "deserves" Angela, and Jordan is the wrong kind of man for any smart girl. I have to disagree.

We are all flawed in our own ways. Jordan is the type of guy that I feel deserves another chance, not just in love but in life. One of my favorite moments in the series is when Jordan flippantly uses the word "ironic" to describe Patty's ex-boyfriend, as if it's a word in his permanent vocabularly, when he had just learned its meaning from Brian earlier that day. Brian didn't dumb down the definition for him, but he was perceptive enough to pick it up. I have to believe that Jordan was moving in the right direction as a decent human being. Brian has known Angela for almost his entire life, and so it's natural for his connection with Angela to be deeper than hers with Jordan. Given the chance, Jordan would have become more of a man with Angela by his side. Or at least I like to think so. I'm a hopeless romantic, too, and I can't believe that Jordan spent all that time with Angela without having a true connection to her.
I totally agree with you! Wow, I really don't think I could've said it better myself. Jordan is a guy who lost out on a lot in life; he's always done things because he thought he had no other choice and that he'd never fit in anywhere else. When he meets Angela, I really believe he started to think, "Hey, it's not okay to be like this anymore. I want to learn. I want to get help. I don't wanna be trashed and in trouble anymore. And more importantly, I wanna be the man Angela sees in me." I really think they are more compatible than Angela and Brian (and not just because I think Jordan is hotter, haha) because Brian doesn't see Angela for who she is. He just sees the fact that he's known her all his life and therefore he understands her more. He's probably rehearsed everything he would like to say to her. Jordan, on the other hand, seemed to find the words right in the moment (like in "In Dreams Begin Responsibilities", when he tells her, "I have all these dreams where I know what to say. And you tell me you forgive me." I think it's fantastic because it's beautiful that he's being honest and slightly poetic at the same time.).

So that's my reasoning why Angela and Jordan are perfect.
"I was goin' nowhere,
goin' nowhere fast.
Drownin' in my memories,
livin' in the past.
Everythin' looked black 'til I found her.
She's all I need, and that's what I said.
Oooh, oooh, oooh, I call her `Red'."

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Re: Re:

Post by Christina_in_color » Jan 3rd 2008, 3:27 pm

His_Girl_Red wrote:
I totally agree with you! Wow, I really don't think I could've said it better myself. Jordan is a guy who lost out on a lot in life; he's always done things because he thought he had no other choice and that he'd never fit in anywhere else. When he meets Angela, I really believe he started to think, "Hey, it's not okay to be like this anymore. I want to learn. I want to get help. I don't wanna be trashed and in trouble anymore. And more importantly, I wanna be the man Angela sees in me." I really think they are more compatible than Angela and Brian (and not just because I think Jordan is hotter, haha) because Brian doesn't see Angela for who she is. He just sees the fact that he's known her all his life and therefore he understands her more. He's probably rehearsed everything he would like to say to her. Jordan, on the other hand, seemed to find the words right in the moment (like in "In Dreams Begin Responsibilities", when he tells her, "I have all these dreams where I know what to say. And you tell me you forgive me." I think it's fantastic because it's beautiful that he's being honest and slightly poetic at the same time.).

So that's my reasoning why Angela and Jordan are perfect.
It's great to have someone agree with me. :D You make a great point about Jordan losing out on a lot of life experiences. Though the series doesn't allow us in his mind, I understand the little that we're shown. When he mentions fighting with his father in "So-Called Angels", a light clicked on for me. Angela has parents who are there for her, no matter if she likes it or not. Jordan has intimacy issues because he can't trust his family. It was heartbreaking watching him spend Christmas alone, lighting a candle for Rickie, while all the other characters found a home. He didn't even turn to his buddy Shane for companionship. Jordan can't walk up to Angela's door without notice, offer to help out with the Christmas tree or some other random thing, and find a welcome seat for dinner. That's why it felt so great for Patty to find common ground with him at the end. After "In Dreams Begin Responsibilities", Jordan could have found a safe haven in the Chase household. I don't think Jordan would fulfill every requirement for the perfect gentlemanly mate, but I'm sure that Jordan has a lot of strength in areas that Angela doesn't because he's used to fending for himself. I don't think he'd shut Angela out forever. And thanks for reminding me of Jordan's attempt to apologize in his own words. He WAS slightly poetic. In the end, his honesty and desire to be with her were all she needed. Your reasoning is spot on to my own!

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Re: Jordon & Angela

Post by beatriz_spain » Oct 19th 2010, 12:25 pm

One of my favorite moments in the series is when Jordan flippantly uses the word "ironic" to describe Patty's ex-boyfriend, as if it's a word in his permanent vocabularly, when he had just learned its meaning from Brian earlier that day. Brian didn't dumb down the definition for him, but he was perceptive enough to pick it up
I totally agree with you. Jordan hadn’t heard this word before, but he can apply it to the situation Patty is narrating. He is no dumb, but, as the substitute teacher says, “You know that kid that just left here. That extremely smart kid. Well, it seems nobody ever bother to notice that he never quite learned how to read”.
As much as I like Brian, I don’t think that Angela should get angry or love Jordan less for not writing the letter. If she did, he would be blaming him for his dyslexia, the same as the rest of people does. Besides, I don’t know what is the hype with that letter, this is not so elaborate, and I can’t understand how Angela supposes that it has been Jordan the one who has written it, knowing his difficulties with language. For me, as His_Girl_Red has stated it is much more beautiful when he says:” I have all these dreams where I know exactly what to say. And you tell me, you know, that you forgive me”. Much more than Brian’s letter, and it clearly belongs to Jordan.
However, there is something that puzzles me. When Jordan is with Patty, she tells him: “Well, I have to say, from everything that you've told me, I think it's clear that you never really meant to hurt her”. Why is Jordan able to express his feelings with other people, and not with Angela? It has nothing to do with dyslexia…Could he be intimidated by Angela? Anyway, I think that Angela would be totally unfair if he left Jordan because of the letter.
Last edited by beatriz_spain on Nov 20th 2010, 11:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Jordon & Angela

Post by His_Girl_Red » Oct 21st 2010, 8:24 am

I really think that Jordan is so afraid that he'll say the wrong thing to her and ruin everything, so it's easier to talk to Brian and Patty about how he feels before he talks things over with Angela. A small part of me thinks that Brian agreed to write that letter to sabotage what Angela & Jordan had so that Jordan could be found as a liar and thus she would finally see that Jordan's no good for her. I really hope that whatever Jordan told her in the car as they drove away from the Chase house was as honest as what he told Patty.
"I was goin' nowhere,
goin' nowhere fast.
Drownin' in my memories,
livin' in the past.
Everythin' looked black 'til I found her.
She's all I need, and that's what I said.
Oooh, oooh, oooh, I call her `Red'."

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Re: Jordon & Angela

Post by beatriz_spain » Oct 21st 2010, 8:48 am

A small part of me thinks that Brian agreed to write that letter to sabotage what Angela & Jordan had so that Jordan could be found as a liar and thus she would finally see that Jordan's no good for her.
Yes, maybe you are right. And another thing that I don't understand is why Angela should fall in love with Brian just because she discovers that Brian loves her. It doesn't make sense. I think that that akward final moment with Brian takes place because she feels guilty for having treated him so badly, not because she has new feelings for him. In my opinion, if there had been a second season, it wouldn't have been realistic her leaving Jordan for Brian. In fact, I think that she is so infatuated with Jordan, that she will have forgiven him one minute after getting into the car in the final scene, it is a pity that we couldn't see it!! :(

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Re: Jordon & Angela

Post by Brunkster » Oct 23rd 2010, 7:02 am

A small part of me thinks that Brian agreed to write that letter to sabotage what Angela & Jordan had so that Jordan could be found as a liar and thus she would finally see that Jordan's no good for her.
Hmmm, if that is the case the Brian is amazingly astute that the truth would come out and have the desired effect. In reality, though, he wrote an overwhelmingly effective letter and I don't think he was trying to sabotoge anything, as much as he may have wanted to. I think a part of him was living vicariously through Jordan and this letter and that he wanted to do a good job of expressing how he felt.
In fact, I think that she is so infatuated with Jordan, that she will have forgiven him one minute after getting into the car in the final scene, it is a pity that we couldn't see it!! :(
Check out all of the amazing fan fiction on this site (and others) to see how others interpreted the fallout of The Letter!

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Re: Jordon & Angela

Post by beatriz_spain » Oct 23rd 2010, 12:05 pm

Check out all of the amazing fan fiction on this site (and others) to see how others interpreted the fallout of The Letter!
I have checked many of the fanfics here and I agree with you that they are amazingly well written, and with so many different outcomes...I have really loved some of them. However, now I am focusing on what whould have happen IN REAL LIFE. My point is that after following the development of their relationship and the feelings that Angela has for Jordan it would be unrealistic (as well as disappointing) her leaving him just because he is not a master of words.

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