Buffy the Vampire Slayer

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JPP13
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Post by JPP13 » Dec 10th 2002, 7:33 pm

Aaarrrgh.....I'm very Spoiler-Phobic!!!!!!!


Just the mere thought I might catch some mistakenly has me scared. :)

Seriously, try and wean yourself off those things - they are bad for you! Ruined my last 2 seasons of XFiles. Or maybe it was just the crappy writing?

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Natasha (candygirl)
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Post by Natasha (candygirl) » Dec 10th 2002, 7:45 pm

I think it was #2.

In the literal sense, as well as the figurative sense.

:wink:
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Post by JPP13 » Dec 10th 2002, 10:43 pm

Yeah, and not to go off-topic within the off-topic thread, but to me the whole point of sticking with the XFiles, and trying to reason through the multiple twists and turns, was for the big payoff. Well, it never came. I firmly believe CC lost all comprehension of the overall story.

I pretty much quit in disgust when it turned out that Samantha, who provided the motivation for the entire show for the Protagonist, turned out to be living with the 'Star People'. It just makes me want to puke thinking about it.

CC could learn a lot from JW.

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Re: Nov 26 episode

Post by Nostradamus » Dec 10th 2002, 11:42 pm

katy wrote:2. How many watchers and slayers in training are left? Can they still be organized without the Watcher's Council?
3. How is the First Evil finding the slayers in training? I mean, it would be easy enough to identify the ones that the Council has already found, but what about the others? Is there some connection between a slayer's power and the First Evil's power?
It's safe to assume that everyone at the Watcher HQ was waxed by that bomb (the actor that played Quentin is now a semi-regular on "24"). However, Q did mention their field operatives around the globe, so it's possible that some of them escaped the hooded "hit squads" that've been making the rounds.

As for slayers-in-training, was that established in an episode I missed or is that conjecture? I was under the impression that there was only one slayer at any given time, with maybe one in training to fill in when the time came. Kendra didn't show until Buffy died the first time, and Faith came after Kendra's passing; Buffy died again, so maybe there's one more on the way, but that wouldn't account for the multiple girls seen early this season.
I just want to take a moment to say how ecstatic and, strangely, surprised I was by last night's episode. The "surprised" was strange because I have been predicting that the shape-shifting evil was the First, that the monks were the Harbingers, and that the girls being stabbed were slayers in training since they first appeared this season. I have been drawing parallels between Angel in Amends and Spike throughout this season. A vampire with a soul being haunted by manifest spirits who are trying to get him to go evil and, eventually, kill Buffy. It's all so similar, and yet so different...a trademark of Buffy (take an old storyline and tweak it enough so that it comes off completely different).
Good call! I spaced that one, but it makes perfect sense now.
And yet, I was surprised all the same. I was not expecting the Watcher's Council to be blown up, or the First to be raising a vampire...a "real" vampire...taking us "back to the beginning." So cool! I mean, I had guessed that the Big Bad this season was going to be the First Evil, but as Giles said in Amends "you can't fight the First, Buffy. It's not a physical being." BUT, if the First brings forth hoards of demons to reek havoc upon the world, then Buffy CAN fight the demons...it's what she was made for. And maybe, just maybe, in the process we'll discover what a slayer really is.
Speaking as a veteran of "La Femme Nikita", I saw that bomb coming a mile away (how many times did Section One abandon their base only to move in to a new, preconstructed one a few days later?). I was a bit disappointed that the Council didn't know enough to scatter once they realized their organization had been compromised. And didn't Giles once mention the first vampire, a demon that took human form eons ago? The Master was old, but no one ever said he was the oldest.

... :idea: ... :?: ... :)
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Vamp Morality

Post by Nostradamus » Dec 11th 2002, 12:10 am

The whole Angel/Spike redemption plotline makes for high drama, but I never really understood the ethical mechanics* of it.

If a person is Embraced** by a vamp against their will, how are they responsible if the resultant soul drainage leads them on a murderous rampage? As early as the pilot episode, Giles told Xander that the vamps had, in effect, already killed Jesse and the demon inhabiting his body was not Xander's friend. Granted, Angel and Spike would feel wretched after regaining their souls and remembering all the narsty things they did when they were evil, but it's not like they chose to lose their souls in the first place. Indeed, they never saw it coming: Liam was drunk and horny, and William was off in his own world sulking.

* Isn't it fun to use a phrase like "ethical mechanics" in a sentence? :wink:

** Embraced = old White Wolf terminology.
I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure.
-- Clarence Darrow

I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it.
-- Mark Twain

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Post by countess_of_wit » Dec 11th 2002, 10:45 am

As for slayers-in-training, was that established in an episode I missed or is that conjecture? I was under the impression that there was only one slayer at any given time, with maybe one in training to fill in when the time came. Kendra didn't show until Buffy died the first time, and Faith came after Kendra's passing; Buffy died again, so maybe there's one more on the way, but that wouldn't account for the multiple girls seen early this season.
The slayers-in-training was never actually said out loud by anyone, so it is conjecture but I believe it is pretty much accepted right now that's who the girls are. I think we were supposed to figure it out, and it will be confirmed as fact in the next couple of episodes. The term S-I-T's has been flying pretty freely around everywhere.

Joss did do interviews or something at the time Buffy died the second time (season 5?) and he said that Buffy died once (when Kendra was called) then Kendra died and Faith was called, and he said that Buffy was now out of the slayer loop. Faith is the true slayer and another girl would not be called until Faith dies. So, if Buffy were to die again, no one would be called. Only when Faith dies. That's what Joss says, anyway.

So, I don't know where all these girls are coming from, that's never been mentioned before that there are so many out there who might be called, and are being trained by the Council.

And on another note: Did anyone notice in Angel, the episode that Tom Irwin was in actually, Angel, Fred and Gunn were cleaning out Cordy's apartment and found pictures of Angel and Cordy, and one of them with Wesley too. Then later, after Cordy comes back she's looking at pictures and she asks (Connor, I think) why there are no pictures of Angel and her or something after she's just seen a picture of her holding Connor as a baby with Angel standing beside her. So, can you take a picture of a vampire or not? :?

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Re: Nov 26 episode

Post by Natasha (candygirl) » Dec 11th 2002, 2:57 pm

Nostradamus wrote:It's safe to assume that everyone at the Watcher HQ was waxed by that bomb (the actor that played Quentin is now a semi-regular on "24").
My Tuesday nights consist of Buffy at 8pm, 24 at 9pm, and then The Shield at 10pm (starting in January), so after I saw Watcher HQ explode I saw Quentin on 24 not ten minutes later so I was pointing at the tv, yelling, "Buffy! Buffy!" My boyfriend had no idea what I was talking about so I blurted out, "He's on Buffy - gawd!" (followed by exasperated eye rolling)

Although he listens to Buffy while I watch, he is not yet fully immersed in the Buffyverse. I'm working on it.
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Post by lance » Dec 11th 2002, 4:08 pm

JPP13 wrote:Personally, I never cared for Anya period. Originally, she was signed to do 1 episode and perhaps 1 more. Shes turned into what we have today - a directionless plot device.

As far as Xander leaving her, I thought it fit in logically with the progression of the characters. I just hope shes the next peripheral character killed off.

Something that has always bugged me is the amount of women who like Spike, or like Spike with Buffy. Just a brief recount (off the top of my head): he's killed 2 previous slayers. He tried to kill Buffy's mom. His then girlfriend killed another slayer. He tried to kill Buffy's boyfriend. He left Buffy to die at the hands of Angel. etc etc. As Buffy's "interest", he was violent and debasing, even at a time he purported to "love" her. Yet a certain percentage of women act as if he cured cancer. Spike is the poster child for every abusive relationship/ domestic violence I've ever seen. He should eb ahted and his death hoped and cheered for.

One last note - I never bought the whole Buffy/Spike thing but for her "adjusting" with life after death. That whole theme has made me want to forget last season.

Bonus post :)

JPP13 ranks the Buffy seasons.
2,5,3,1,4,6. Inconclusive on 7, but I'm thinking at this point its setting up to be better than 4 but not as good as 3.
I actually like Anya. I enjoyed her awkwardness in dealing with life as a human. She brings an innocence to somethings that everyone else takes for granted.

Candygirl,

Yeh, I did not like Buffie using Spike last season. There was serious abuse going on there, even if the guy in this case is a vampire.

Lance Man

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Re: Nov 26 episode

Post by lance » Dec 11th 2002, 4:10 pm

candygirl wrote:Although he listens to Buffy while I watch, he is not yet fully immersed in the Buffyverse. I'm working on it.
Candygirl,

I share your mission on that one. My wife used not be able to be in the same room with my when Buffie was on, too scary. Now she at least knows who Xander or Spike is. Progress, one step at a time.

Lance Man

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Re: Nov 26 episode

Post by Natasha (candygirl) » Dec 11th 2002, 4:32 pm

lance wrote:Now she at least knows who Xander or Spike is. Progress, one step at a time.
Baby steps!

:D
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Re: Nov 26 episode

Post by katy » Dec 11th 2002, 4:49 pm

Nostradamus wrote: And didn't Giles once mention the first vampire, a demon that took human form eons ago? The Master was old, but no one ever said he was the oldest.
Yes, in "The Harvest", Giles explained...
This world is older than any of you know. Contrary to popular mythology, it did not begin as a paradise. For untold eons demons walked the Earth. They made it their home, their... their Hell. But in time they lost their purchase on this reality. The way was made for mortal animals, for, for man. All that remains of the old ones are vestiges, certain magicks, certain creatures...

The books tell the last demon to leave this reality fed off a human, mixed their blood. He was a human form possessed, infected by the demon's soul. He bit another, and another, and so they walk the Earth, feeding... Killing some, mixing their blood with others to make more of their kind. Waiting for the animals to die out, and the old ones to return.
...which is why the introduction of the Uber-vampire (or presumably the "pure demon" form of a vampire) means we are going back to the beginning, as the First Evil (as the Master) said in Lessons...the beginning being a time when pure demons ruled the earth. For definition of "pure demon" see Anya's explanation of the ascension in "Graduation Day, Part I."
Nostradamus wrote: As for slayers-in-training, was that established in an episode I missed or is that conjecture? I was under the impression that there was only one slayer at any given time, with maybe one in training to fill in when the time came. Kendra didn't show until Buffy died the first time, and Faith came after Kendra's passing; Buffy died again, so maybe there's one more on the way, but that wouldn't account for the multiple girls seen early this season.
Slayers in training had not officially been mentioned when I posted, but as of last night's trailer (for next week's episode), it has been confirmed.

Logic behind multiple slayers-in-training:
Slayers are called around age 15, and most have a very short life expectancy. In some cases, though, a future slayer can be identified when they are very young...Kendra, for example...

"What's My Line, Part II"
Kendra: My parents, dey sent me to my Watcher when I was very young.
Buffy: How young?
Kendra: I don't remember dem, actually. I've seen pictures. But, uh, dat's how seriously de calling is taken by my people. My modder and fadder gave me to my Watcher because dey believed dat dey were doing de right ting for me, and for de world.
If we are to presume that one future slayer can be identified this young (about 12 years before she is called), then we must also allow for the possibility that other future slayers could be identified at about the same age, meaning that there is the potential for several slayers-in-training to exist all at the same time. And really, this makes sense...because if you factor in the extremely short life expectancy, the Watchers would want to identify the next slayer to start the training and indoctrination as early as possible, preferably before she is even called.

I hope this helps clarify slayers-in-training a little bit. They are different from slayers in that they have not been officially called yet (they have not yet reached the "I'm the only one" status), but somehow or other the WC have been able to identify them and start their training.

PostScript: All quotes from episodes are taken from studiesinwords

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lance
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buffy spoilers!

Post by lance » Dec 12th 2002, 1:18 pm

News on next weeks episode at:

comicscontinuum.com

WARNING SPOILERS!

BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER SCHEDULE

UPN has released its schedule of Buffy the Vampire Slayer episodes through the rest of the year.

A new episode, "Bring On the Night," is scheduled for Tuesday.

Here's how the network describes the episode:

"Buffy and the Scoobie gang struggle mightily to find a way to destroy the Ubervamp and are relieved when they are joined in the battle by the sudden arrival of Giles and three young would-be slayers.

"Meanwhile, Spike barely endures the tortuous interrogation by The First until Buffy arrives to confront him and save Spike."

David Grossman directed from a script by Marti Noxon and Douglas Petrie.

Other upcoming episodes are a rebroadcast of "Normal Again" on Dec. 24 and "Two To Go" and "Grave" on Dec. 31.

Lance Man

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Natasha (candygirl)
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Post by Natasha (candygirl) » Dec 12th 2002, 3:40 pm

Of course this begs the question: is it REALLY Giles? I believe in Ripper's survival skills, but I would like to know how he escaped being whacked in the head. The last time we saw him, he was one swing away from decapitation.
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Post by JPP13 » Dec 12th 2002, 3:56 pm

Yikes, I was just slightly spoiled. I would say soemthing along the lines of cheese on a counter for 4 hours. Not say the level of rancid pork. :)

I think that is how they are going to go with it. Since the FE (or MM, or BB take your pick) has only appeared as the dead, it COULD be Giles. the part about the slaerys in waiting, since we know some of them died, being with him furthers this point.

My guess is they didn't really kill Giles of course, but that damn axe was pretty close and coming fast.

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Post by Mek » Dec 15th 2002, 3:31 am

Hey Gang!

Several things (includes some SPOILERS)

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Not sure how they're getting Giles out of his imminent beheading but we know he's in the next episode with three (count em, three) Slayers in training. Also, Joss Whedon has plans to feature Giles in his own series for the BBC. Firefly is taking up his time this year or it would likely already be in production. I'm guessing the whole Watcher Councel getting blown to hell and the Slayers-in-training thing are forwshadowings of "Ripper" as well as advancing the plot on Buffy.

As to crossovers between Angel and Buffy, they are doing it this year, at least after a fashion. Faith will be back for 3 episodes on Angel and the FINAL FIVE episodes of Buffy. I'm thinking this is a sure sign that if this is the last season of Buffy (very likely is) that Joss intends to go out with a bang.

Angel continues to kick ass. LOVED the big fight scene with the boys against Mr. Indestructible Demon Guy.

I like Firefly a lot. I think Joss has done a good job of achieving what he set out to do:
1) prove that Sci-Fi doesn't NEED aliens
2) write a show not about the people who make history (ala Star Trek, Babylon 5, et al) but about the people that history steps on

Also keep in mind that the upcoming 2-hour Firefly episode is the true PREMIERE episode. Fox felt it was too dark and forced Joss to start the series with another episode. Joss has said that the episodes WILL BE IN THE CORRECT ORDER on the DVD boxed set. Don't blame Joss for Fox ONCE AGAIN underestimating our intelligence and screwing up the episode order.

Back to Buffy. Season 7 has definitely been better than last year's "half dozen characters in search of a plot" But I do have a problem with Spike. Why the hell hasn't somebody dusted him yet? Geez. OK, he was a kick ass villian and has provided some good insights into the other characters and plenty of humor. But we're well past the point that any of that should justify his continued existence. Joss has not provided us with a single believeable excuse for him not getting dusted since season 5.

Hmm, seem to be a couple of rants in there. Sorry.

Mek

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