About Angela

General discussion about the nineteen episodes of "My So-Called Life". Note: Our episode guide can be found here.
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Cami A.
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Re: About Angela

Post by Cami A. » Mar 4th 2008, 3:56 pm

Monny,

I know! This is bad for me. I'm completely distracted from my school work...:D...Thanks for the feedback on my fanfic...and yes it's quite a lot of work to write anything longer.

I think that its really interesting what you observed about Rayanne with the straightened hair and the conservative clothes. I guess maybe she would more likely reform...she felt pretty bad about hurting Angela and she TRULY realizes that she screwed up (duh, squared) for the first time...
"So, the mouse makes pressure, just by breathing?...I can relate."

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Re: About Angela

Post by ikilledkennyandjr » Mar 4th 2008, 4:07 pm

Ah, thanks for your comments about my video! That's the essence of subtext, isn't it? If it's too obvious, people go crazy; if it's not obvious enough, only the crazies notice it. But I'm not insane, oh no! It's just the rest of the world that is. :P I actually have a fanfic involving them... as a them. It's on the fanfiction section of the board, in case you're interested.

Speaking of which, I forgot to tell you how I liked the new scene in your episode, the one between Sharon and Rayanne. I love it! Dig the way Rayanne shows vulnerability, but it's layered behind rudeness. It reminds me of the scene in Why Jordan Can't Read, where she said that she "sometimes" (yeah right) felt numb during sex, and then laughed off Sharon's concern. Or how about her lie to Brian in "Halloween"? I just love Rayanne! She's undisputedly my favourite character. Anyway, nice scene, I like the way Sharon nags as usual and seems almost protective.

The dance--you're right, I think she did feel bad for Brian and wanted to dance with someone after Jordan left her feeling a bit undesired. But she looked almost disappointed when he said no. She also didn't ask him to dance "as a friend", even though she must have considered that he liked her. I don't think that episode provided irrefutable proof that she had deep feelings for him, but she was at least a little flattered by his attention, and at least a little jealous of Delia at the beginning. Maybe Brian was a tiny bit like Angela's Delia Fisher.

She might have seen him as a brother type. I think her affections could be proven either way. Of course, by the end of the last episode, it was a whole new world.

I guess I was a bit hasty to say Jordan and Angela were wrong for each other. I don't think they were meant to be, and they would've eventually split up, but that's not to say they couldn't have learned from each other. They just feel so odd-couple to me, and besides, I like the geeks more. :wink:

I think then, Jordan represented the adult world to Angela, who didn't really know what adulthood entailed. And that's fine. But somewhere down the road, I think she'd have a more mature relationship with someone like Brian. One based more on conversation than on sex. (In the last episode, she lamented to Rickie, "Just as I'm realizing that there's hope, that we could actually communicate, he runs away.") But you know what? Jordan would've prepared her for all that. You can't have a second love without a first.
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Re: About Angela

Post by MonnyUK2 » Mar 4th 2008, 7:16 pm

Cami,
I know how you feel aabout being distracted, lol! I love this show and well I could sit here and chat all day about it. I'm about to watch ' Self Esteem' again. Just watching random episodes at the moment.

I agree with what you said about Rayanne. In the series as a whole I don't think she changes that much. Yes she does OD but I think her lively and bubbly personality doesn't change that much.

As for Angela and Brian I think you can see a visible change in them as well as Ricky. Angela certainly changes from the 'pilot' to the last episode. Not just in appeearnce but in maturity as well.

In terms of Jordan I think his hair just gets longer but he doesn't really say much so he is a tricky one to judge.

We see a change in Sharon. Her relationship with Kyle sees her become sexually active and quite responsible as she is responsible for year book and many other things. She likes to keep busy and can multi-task really well. We haven't really discussed the adults as yet but I will let you start with that one. I have plenty to say about Patty but I want to see your opinions first.

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Re: About Angela

Post by Cami A. » Mar 5th 2008, 12:14 am

ikilledkennyandjr,

Thanks for the props on my new scene. I love Rayanne too. I think she is one of the most complex characters...which is why she's so fun to watch. She's got a strong case of denial going on there. Don't you love the way shes struts around? I love how her hair always swings back and forth when she walks. Oh, and I'll definitely hit up your fanfic after my exams are over.

I like that point "Brian was a tiny bit like Angela's Delia Fisher." I think you've finally been able to convince me of what the relationship is before the last episode...Brian is the wallpaper she could have but she wants the expensive one...I think Angela is just not as desperate as Brian, so she never really thought about something romantic with Brian.

Angela and Jordan are and odd couple...although I think they are equally beautiful. I find the fact that he would give her the time of day almost impossible in the real world since she seems so innocent and worrisome and him so mature and nonchalant...but thats why I think there is so much more to him that what meets the eye...he's deep enough to be attracted to Angela in the first place.

I have a theory that he was really the one pursuing her. I mean he was the one who first tried to lay that horrible kiss on her...and then convince her to have sex with him to fulfill the rumor in Guns and Gossip (I know that's a jerk face, hormonal guy thing to do...but it seems he could've had his pick of any other more "mature" girl like Cynthia Hargrove) For some reason he kept getting caught up with her. Like when he asked her "why are you like this" in Life of Brian...i thought it meant why do you have this affect on me? It was just lucky for Angela that they guy pursuing her was the one she'd been obsessing over all this time. I made a fan video that shows this angle on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCL6t5RuuFM

Jordan definitely had this mature feel to him. Geeks are intelligent and people you can actually get to know and have a good relationship with, but cool dark Characters like Jordan with that bit of mystery to them will always appeal to our fantasies (at least mine).

True that you cant have second love without a first...very true.

-Cam
"So, the mouse makes pressure, just by breathing?...I can relate."

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Re: About Angela

Post by Cami A. » Mar 5th 2008, 12:32 am

Monny,

Yea. I am waiting to get the DVD Set as an Easter Gift when I go home for Spring Break. Yay! So I am stuck with watching YouTube Clips for now. Luckily someone posted Episodes 9-19 in their entirety.

Rayanne doesn't change much, but after your comment on my fanfic...I'm thinking that finally she might start to change for the better. About Jordan--he has most definitely changed. He's starting to be proactive about his education by going to tutoring. He decides that it's wrong to have Angela do his homework. He begins to open up and talk to her...and even though he had Brian write the letter...he did really feel he needed Angela and that's why he was desperate. He actually talks to Angela's parents when he doesn't like dealing with parents...and tries to impress her mom so that Angela will feel special. I think the comment "Wow. Ironic" he says to Patty in the final episode...that shows his intellectual and emotional development.

Hmmm...Patty. I'm not sure where to even start with her. She's got so much going on because she's busy being a mother, wife, and daughter. In ever episode she is struggling to communicate with the ones she cares about. I feel very sorry for her. I need a better leaping off point to get into deep analysis about her...do you have any specific discussion questions in mind?

P.S. Jody Barsh is the girl Sharon mentions once right? The one that Rayanne "used"? Do we ever actually know anything more about Jody Barsh? haha
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Re: About Angela

Post by MonnyUK2 » Mar 5th 2008, 6:40 am

Cami,
Jordan did mature in that way I do gree with you and his exposure to Angela and Brian is certainly good for him in an academic sense. I love how in 'In dreams' when he tells Angela that he did an undefendable thing. He looks so sincere but when he runs out of ideas he makes a sharp exit. From this we realise that Brian does have a positive influenece on him. Will this continue after 'In dreams' we can only speculate. I guess Brian did enjoy Jordan's company and I think Brian did enjoy Jordan's. Would have been interesting to see them on a night out together. lol!

As for Patty then I do understand that she has many things to deal with but from Graham' point of view I find her irritating. She is always thinming bad about him and putting him down and not thinking he is capable. This is evident in 'Strangers in the House' and in 'Self Esteem' as well as other episodes. If she was my wife I would have divorced her ages a go. I'm sorry but that is my male opinion,lol!

I did like the way she let herself go in 'Weekend'' but I do understand why she was frustrated with Graham and how the weekend turned out. She does try and be more supportive towards Graham but I find her a bit irritating. There are signs that she is getting paranoid about Graham's relationship with Hallie. How would she have reacted to the kiss that nearly happened in 'In Dreams' between Graham and Hallie?

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Re: About Angela

Post by Cami A. » Mar 5th 2008, 7:06 am

Monny,

Yea I felt that Brain and Jordan sort of understood each other. They compliment each other well being such opposites. And they were both using each other concerning Angela lol. A night out for Brian in general would be humorous. I can only imagine what it wold be like with Jordan.

Ok. Now I know where to go about Patty. Patty is quite irritating. She is quite the nag, and she does seem to have a lack of faith in Graham. But let's face it--you can tell she really loves Graham because she's willing to fire him so that he can chase his dreams. I mean the guy is sort of a loser...she's the bread winner, and he's like this big kid that doesn't seem to take anything seriously. While Patty is annoying (and it is understandable why Graham is tempted to stray by the girl he mentions in an earlier episode, and Hallie Lowenthal ) she nags because she cares. And she puts him down because she feels a lack of communication and she's got this hunch that he is struggling with something so she prys at it. So if I were graham I certainly wouldn't divorce her. I would just ignore her nagging because Graham is pretty irritating too. He never really helps her out in dealing with Angela and he belittles her concerns. Plus he's often insensitive as in the episode "Weekend"...It's totally understandable why Patty is so irritated. She's under a ton of stress. She's trying to reach out to Graham and Angela but they wont talk to her about anything. Look how she nearly loses it every time Angela confides in her (like in On the Wagon)--that's how important communication is to her. Her Dad is a chauvinist who has no faith in her even though she's been running the business for so long.. So as a daughter, wife, and mother she struggles and feels like shes losing the people she loves. She a great mom though. She comes through for her daughter when she needs her most...when Rayanne ODs...

Also, I feel life is unfair for her. While everyone else is exploring their lives and finding themselves she is stuck holding it all together. Winne Holzman doesn't even give her the chance to met her old boyfriend Tony Poole again. Patty never runs into anyone she could think of cheating on Graham with, but if I recall Graham has that opportunity with two people. She feels like Angela loves Graham more because he's nicer...it's just not fair. But I guess that's what being a mom and a wife is all about...i mean Patty reminds me of my Mom so much, because my dad is kinda like Graham, he's less educated, he's got a crappier job, he's an artist in his spare time, and he's the kinda dad who buys stuff for their kids, and makes pancakes for dinner, and generally creates chaos for a mom who is trying to gain control. I used to be closer to my dad and think he was cooler, But now that I'm older I respect my mom a lot more than my dad because she's practical and reliable and never seems to want anything for herself. Patty is this way.

Cam
"So, the mouse makes pressure, just by breathing?...I can relate."

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Re: About Angela

Post by MonnyUK2 » Mar 10th 2008, 12:50 pm

Cami,
Hey! I'm sorry it has been so long. Been very busy. I agree with everything you said about Patty. I still don't like her though. I think Graham is guilty of much of what you suggested but he is a nice guy. Patty and Graham's relationship is captured really well and is an extra benefit to the series. They compliment the children and they are their own unique characters.

I always wonder why they didn't use that Gina character from 'Guns and Gossip' again. It looked quite obvious that she liked Brian. We never did see that interview did we. Couldn't she have been Delia in 'The Life of Brian'? Isn't funny how Sharon really looks after Brian? She introduces him to Gina and Delia. I think they have a really close friendship that we see more of in 'Strangers in the House'.

As this section is about Angela then I think I should mention her.lol! I watched 'The Zit' the other day and I don't think comes off too well at all. Especially in regards to Sharon. I know she is jealous but I know that girls can be like this. It is a really nice scene between the two of them in the bathroom at the end. Also, I share your ideas about Patty here. Anglea is not very helpful in this episode and she is grumpy through out the whole thing. I know she has issues with her self-confidence but she does treat everyone else badly.

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Re: About Angela

Post by Cami A. » Mar 10th 2008, 2:17 pm

Hey,

I agree Patty and Graham totally compliment the kids with their own issues and personalities. It balances the show really well.
Oh yea, Gina...haha that was the funniest scene. "I have to leave the room when my father uses the electric knife." I don't think Brian knew what to do about that, like he didn't have Sharon telling him to ask her out of anything so he just enjoyed the attention. Besides, if Holzman brought her back it would make her too significant and therefore make Angela less significant to Brian's struggles...besides i love Delia, you can tell she would be a major part of the show if there had been a second season.

Yea, I don't know if Sharon's looking after Brian, or looking after her friends--Delia and Gina? I think she's using him just like everyone else does, for her friends sake.What do you think?

Angela was quite "unhelpful" in the Zit. She was bitter towards everyone, especially Sharon for having "best global endowments." All the same, even if I didn't have issues with my self-image, at age 15 I wouldn't have cooperated for a mother-daughter fashion show. Patty did NEED it too much. I know I was horrible to my mom when I was a teenager, so I know its mean of Angela to be that way, but can you really blame her?

cam
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Re: About Angela

Post by MonnyUK2 » Mar 11th 2008, 11:50 am

Cam,
Yes I agree with you in everything again. Poor old Brian getting used by everybody. I don't know if Sharon was using him. She has known Brian as long as Angela has and I don't think they have grown as far apart as Brian and Angela?

I know in 'The Zit' you girls do have these issues when you are that age and I know is typical of many teenage girls. Patty seemes shocked whenever she show sthem a moment of affection. This is usually when Angela is in a good mood. In 'Pressure' she comes home after seeing Jordan and gives them both (Patty and Graham) a hug after coming home and in 'On the Wagon' when she talks to them after not going to see Rayanne sing. She does respectPatty as she admits in the pilot but I think like every teenager she needs her space to figure out life.

I just thought with Angela how come she is always surprised to see Brian? She has known him and the family have known him for ages. He is like part of the furniture.He doesn't need to make an excuse to come over. I guess this is his lack of social confidence. He gets on well with the rest of Angela's family and they tend to respect him more than Angela does.

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Re: About Angela

Post by Cami A. » Mar 11th 2008, 2:00 pm

I guess since the show is from Angela's point of view we don't get a real clear sense of how close Sharon and Brian are, if at all. We know that they have known each other for a long time thru Angela, so they care about each other, but are they really close friends? Brian doesn't seem to think so--in Strangers in the House he says they are not really friends--it was pretty abnormal for them to hang out--it was only because Sharon needed him. I think for everyone Brian is just there, dependable, but not someone they hold close to their hearts.

This is why I think Angela is always so surprised to see him, to her, when he's out of sight, he's out of mind. We don't know what their relationship was like before the pilot, except for that when Angela was "little" she spent a lot of time at Krakow's house. I think he was a childhood friend, but that she grew out of him a long time ago, and is further growing away from him with her new set of friends and her rebellion for her parents. We don't know how recently he started showing up at their door constantly either, he might have just recently started puberty and realized he had a crush on Angela.
I think that's true...while Both Patty and Graham think Brian is a little bit strange, they do like him. Probably because he doesn't seem to pose any threat (sexually) to their daughter--like Jordan does--and because he's a "good kid". Danielle obviously respects him, not to mention is in love with him so yea i think Angela's family respects Brian more than she does.

Also, as Brian expresses in Life of Brian, for knowing the Chase's for so long he doesn't know them that well. He doesn't even know what their daily life is like. He says something along the lines of "At Angela's house I bet they like laugh, and eat unbalanced meals..." So Brian is just close enough to Angela that she can't see that he likes her, and just distant enough that they are still awkward towards each other.

Its a very complex relationship.
What do you think?
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Re: About Angela

Post by MonnyUK2 » Mar 12th 2008, 8:35 am

Cam,
Wow! That is a deep analysis and again you are right. On the other hand in 'So-Called angels' Graham and Patty do agree that things would have been different if it was Brian that turned up at their door with a bruised face and not Ricky. Also, in the same episode Brian's ever absent parents ask Patty to look in on Brian while they are away.

However, as you said I think their relationship is like you described. Sharon, Brian and Angela did used to spend much time together when they were younger. Sharon and Angela have grown out of Brian and leading their own lives. This happens in life where friends come in and out of your life. I have a very good friend who lived opposite me but he moved away last year. Now we rarely see each other as we are busy in our own lives but we will still be there for each other if needed. I don't think Brian has accepted that they have left him behind. That is why he used an opportunity to reconnect with Sharon in 'Strangers in the House'. Although this time was short.

I do feel that if the show had continued he would have been more and more in Angela's life. Despite everything between them I feel she has a little soft spot for him. Not in a romantic way but just because he is dependable and now Brian's feelings are known to Angela it probably would be awkward at first but after I feel they would have got closer. This is a very complex one and as we only have 19 episodes a very difficult one to analyse in great depth.

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Re: About Angela

Post by Cami A. » Mar 12th 2008, 9:08 pm

Hey.
Of course it would've been different if Brian showed up with a black eye, but that's not necessarily to say that Brian is close to the Chase's just that he has "known" them since he was five. If you had seen a person every once and a while for 10 years and had only met a person once or twice you would chose the person you'd known for 10 years to help...Same about his parent's asking them to check in on Brian. It's more like a convenience thing, than a friendship thing. They obviously are not friends with the Krakow's..."Can you believe what the Krakow's did?" "Yes, but only one time, to make Brian, right?" lol.

I agree with what you said about Brian using that opportunity to reconnect with Sharon.
And yeah, I was the same way with many childhood friends, especially my best childhood friend. We used to be inseparable, but she moved away, and we started seeing each other less and less, and then our interests differed, and the friends we hung out with differed, and we stopped talking or seeing each other, until recently we've had an email correspondence going on, and we'd be there for each other if ever need be. I agree with you, this is how both Angela and Sharon relate to Brian.

Yes, I think Angela would've become closer with Brian and appreciated him more.

You got any thoughts on Angela's relationship with Graham or with Rickie?
"So, the mouse makes pressure, just by breathing?...I can relate."

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Re: About Angela

Post by MonnyUK2 » Mar 15th 2008, 8:57 pm

Cami,
In terms of Graham then her relationship is quite rocky with him at first. 'Father Figures' picks up on tis. We find that in the pilot they were close when Angela was younger but as she has got older she has in her own opinion drifted away. Graham doesn't help matters by being spotted by Angela in The pilot. On the other hand in 'Father Figures' we still see how much Angela loves her dad by how upset she is when he blanks her for lying about the concert. In 'Dancing in the Dark' the two of them have a nice moment when they are eating some spaghetti. I think there is more of an emphasis on Angela's relationship with Patty as the series develops. They have run ins in 'The Zit' , 'So-Called Angels' and we feel Patty's distance from her daughter through out the series.

In terms of Ricky the at first Ricky is just Raynne's friend but the two of the grow close. In 'Guns and Gossip' there is a pivotal moment in the car when Angela says it takes something to happen to figure out how you feel about somebody. In 'So-Called Angels' Angela's love as a friend for Ricky is shown and also Ricky's still not feeling close enough to Angela to not be able to talk about his problem with her in the warehouse. In 'Betrayal' they ahve a run in over Corey Helfrick when Angela tries to make a move on him. I do feel that out of all Angela's friends Ricky becomes the most reliable and one she cares about.

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Re: About Angela

Post by Cami A. » Mar 16th 2008, 12:14 am

Hey Monny!

I agree with you. I think Father Figures is a very meaningful episode. Angela and her dad have slipped out of touch with each other. They no longer understand each other and they both long to know each other. Angela is confused because she is suddenly seeing her Dad for the flawed person all dads are. This just comes with growing up and becoming aware about the people around you, but Angela cannot know this because she's right in the middle of it. I also think this started with the fact that she saw him talking to that girl in the Pilot. On the other hand, Graham is confused because he doesn't know how to deal with the changes Angela is going through--the breasts and her social distance from him. He is really disturbed by how she begins to treat him, and so he tries to give her Dead tickets and be nice to her friends to win her over, but this just pushes her further away. And, yes as you said, we see that this new distance hurts both of them because Angela is upset when he gives her the silent treatment. In the end of the episode we see their desire to know one another shine through when they start talking about music on the ladder...

speaking of that episode i love the quote graham says about Brian:
"I'd love to help you sir, but I'm too busy picturing your daughter naked."

Yea I love that moment in Guns & Gossip in the care where Angela and Rickie define their friendships. About the whole So Called Angels Episode, I've thought about that a lot. I don't know that Rickie doesn't confide in Angela because they are not close enough, I think it's because he's got too much pride and because he can't accept help easily. Plus Angela's got a "perfect" life so he doesn't think she could understand. It doesn't seem like he really relies on Rayanne either and Rayanne is supposed to be his best friend..so i don't think its that he doesn't trust or feel close to Angela, i think its something else. However, I agree with you that Angela becomes closer to Rickie and depends on him the most and viceversa in the end.

Would it have been the same way between Rickie and Angela if Rayanne hadn't slept with Jordan or even if she'd never ODed?
What do you think?
"So, the mouse makes pressure, just by breathing?...I can relate."

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