About Angela

General discussion about the nineteen episodes of "My So-Called Life". Note: Our episode guide can be found here.
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Cami A.
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About Angela

Post by Cami A. » Feb 28th 2008, 12:37 pm

I was just thinking about episode 17, where Angela tries to kiss Cory backstage, and Rayanne confronts her telling her that she lost nothing, but Rayanne lost a really good friend. I couldn't help thinking that Angela really wasn't that great of a friend. I mean, do you remember how she didn't want to be there for Rayanne's singing debut with Jordan's nameless band? And how she totally ignored Rayanne when she needed her the most to spend time with Jordan instead? And how she didn't show up when she invited Rayanne over that one day after school? And how she scalped the dead tickets? I'm not so sure Angela is a "good person" after all. In fact I found her kind of selfish. And I know she did things to help Rickie when he was in trouble, but look how she was towards Sharon when her dad was sick. And how she always takes advantage of Brian?

What do you think? Is Angela a good person/friend/daughter? Is she the real hero of MSCL, or is she just a looking glass through which we see the evolution of other more morally promising characters?
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Re: About Angela

Post by MonnyUK2 » Feb 29th 2008, 8:24 am

I agree with you Cami. I think in these instances that you mention she was 'heartless' and selfish. The incident in 'On the Wagon' when Angela doesn't turn up when Rayanne is singing was out of order. Even Brian Krakow turned up. I thought Rayanne should have mentioned that to Angela at the end. She does think about herself and Jordan too much. Also, in 'Strangers in the House' the way she treats Sharon is also not very nice. in 'The Zit' the way she makes fun of Sharon's breasts being on the list was also horrible. Just because she has a zit, does the rest of the world have to suffer? I know things wre different between her and Rayanne after Rayanne's OD. This is when Rayanne needed her friendship the most. She did help Ricky and well In 'life of Brian' her and Brian get rewarded for their selfishness by them being miserable at the end. Lately I have developed a soft spot for Rayanne as watching the series more closely I realsie her heart was always in the right place but things just seemed to happen to her. In 'Betrayal' it was hard to be on her side as Ricky puts it but the rest of the time I think she was brilliant.

Having said all that it is still hard not to love Angela as we see things from her point of view. We go through all the good and bad times with her so she is like a friend who we do care about even though she does have these bad qualities. As Brian says in Self-Esteem' 'She does have these floors' but we still love her.

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Re: About Angela

Post by Cami A. » Feb 29th 2008, 4:47 pm

MonnyUK2,

Yea. I guess we love Angela as we love ourselves. We forgive our own flaws because they are justified by our own emotions. I identify with her a lot. I feel like her narrative is like a mirror of my life. I have a friend like Rayanne, and sort of left behind childhood friend like Sharon. I've felt that same way she does about Jordan about boys I've liked. I guess she does admit that she's a horrible person in Strangers in the House, at least inside her head...when she goes to Jordan for comfort about Sharon's dad. I dunno. I guess that what makes her such a good main character--because she is flawed.

I think the "best person" on the show is Rickie. I don't see any ounce of badness in him at all. I think he's sensitive, thoughtful, appreciative, respectful, loving...I wish I could just reach out and hug him.

What is that quote you were referring to by Brian in Self Esteem??
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Re: About Angela

Post by MonnyUK2 » Mar 1st 2008, 8:06 pm

Cami,
I agree with you Ricky is a dude. He doesn't ask anything from anybody and when he does a favour he doesn't expect anything in return. He has put up with much from Angela and Rayanne as well as having his own problems but he grows over the 19 episodes. The quote from Brian I mentioned is in 'self esteem' towards the end when Katimski is reading that Shakespeare. This girl that Shakespeare decsribes does have flaws but the character is still in love with her. It is a nice moment between Jordan and Brian.

As a male I can't totally identify with Angela, lol. I do understand a lot of what she goes through but I feel more in tune with Brian. I was 15 when the show aired and I was infatuated with a girl from school who I struggled to tell my true feelings. This mirrored with other girls I Liked in later life. I wasn't as nerdy as Brian or that heartless to others but as a boy trying to be a man I see myself through his eyes.

As for Angela then I agree with you that she isn't nice at times but that is what makes her more real. She has run ins with all the characters at some stage. Of course one of the most famous is with Brian in 'Why Jordan Can't Read'. I think that this scene needs analysis. In 'Betrayal' when Camille tells Patty that if they argue (meaning Graham and Hallie) then there is passion. This is a huge argument and there is total passion involved and that moment at the end of the argument you think for a split second they are going to grab each other and have a passionate kiss, then you realise it is Brian Krakow standing there. Why does Angela care what Brian thinks? Why does she get involved between Brian and Delia? I don't buy that Jordan was the total reason. At the end of 'Life of Brian' she tells Brian she doesn't know why she got involved? Have you ever heard of a 3rd wheel on a date?

I can tell Cami you are obsessed at the moment like me, lol. It is nice to share these observations with people and how this show echoed some portion of our own lives at some stage.

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Re: About Angela

Post by Cami A. » Mar 2nd 2008, 2:04 am

Hey!
Thanks for replying again. It is good to find someone who will have a conversation with me about it. Thanks for giving me a male perspective, I never really thought about it like that. And I agree with you that there needs to be some serious analysis done on the Angela/Brian relationship. I love how Brian always ruins a moment by embarrassing Angela...like in the end of Strangers in the House when she tells him that the way he is is why Sharon needed him...and he asks her if she gave it thought. There is obviously something there, Angela is just to blind to see it because of Jordan. Brian's blind too...he is only nice to Angela really.

I'm not sure if I agree with you about Angela getting involved with Delia and Brian's Dance Date because of any underlying motive. I think Brian is just her go to guy that will always say yes (and she takes advantage of this plenty)...since even Rickie pushed her away. But maybe you can convince me otherwise.

I don't really like Jordan, I rooted for Brian the whole time. But we do have to realize that the "Jordan type" isn't always as jerkish as they seem. They just don't know how to be loving yet. I do truly believe that he needs Angela because she's the only one who really took the time to understand why he is the way he is...and you've got to commend her for that.
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Re: About Angela

Post by MonnyUK2 » Mar 3rd 2008, 5:49 am

Hey Cami,
It is funny how Brian embarrasses himself in front of Angela. That moment at the end of 'Strangers in the House' is really nice. I think Brian does that because he is unsure of how to react with girls, especially when it comes to Angela. He is out of tune with how people talk and hang out. When he tells Ricky that Delia has it for him, he is unsure that this is the correct term to use.

As for 'Life of Brian' then yes Brian is the last resort to get Angela to the dance. She is blinded by Jordan and doesn't see the feelings that Brian has. Rayanne picks up on it in this episode when she tells Angela to go to the dance with Brian. I still think that deep down there was some other motive here. I love that whole scene at the dance. That scene when she calls Brian 'heartless' and then she turns and sees Jordan. Brian is forgotten. That dance tune that starts there is really good. It captures the whole moment.

I think that because Angela is blinded until the final episode we were cheated of what may have occured between her and Brian later. I rooted for Brian too bacause he was the underdog. I tried hard not to like Jordan but it is hard because I think he is ok. I do think that her and Jordan were doomed for failure though.

I analyse all the interaction between Angela and Brian like a complete saddo. Angela does feel at ease with Brian. In 'Pressure' she is quite open with him about the problems she has been having with Jordan. She discusses the issue of sex with him, which you don't just do with anybody.

She confides in Brian about Ricky in 'So-Called Angels' and I feel she forgives him for some horrible things. In 'Guns and Gossip' she forgives him for the rumour he spreads about her and Jordan. Also, the argument they have in 'Why Jordan Can't Read' is forgotten by the end of the episode. I do think that she thinks of Brian as a brother type figure which he takes the wrong way beacuse she is one of the few girls who gives him any attention.

In the 'Pilot' Angela and Brian tease each other before Angela goes out with Rayanne and she is quite horrible to him. Yet when she sees her father with that other woman he is there to help her even if he unsure of what to do. THaat scene between them under the street lamp is magic and I don't think the producers realised how good it was until they saw it.Let me know your thoghts Cami. Take care.

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Re: About Angela

Post by Cami A. » Mar 3rd 2008, 6:38 am

Monny,

Thanks. You reminded me of a lot of really good scenes between Brian and Angela. There are definite moments of closeness...but i still think Angela sees him as a big brother of sorts. In the ending moment of the series--when she's looking at Brian all funny I think it is the first time she ever really thought of him in a different light. However, that might be negated by some comments she's made--like that great quote when Angela comes over (i think its episode #2 or #3) to do the extra science experiment and she talks about how Brian's house smells the same--which is reassuring and annoying all at once kinda like Brian...that shows that she might view him more complexly...and how she compliments him at the End of Episode #8 (strangers in the house). She realizes that he is a source of comfort...but how much does she appreciate him for this...more than family? more than a friend?

Do you think something really would've happened between Angela and Brian if the show would've continued? I mean I think If I were Angela, I would suddenly feel sad. Not only because my bubble was burst about Jordan, but because Brian has this crazy love for me that I wouldn't know how to handle. It would be awkward. I think I would probably be more careful of his feeling and steal private time with him to get closer and explore who he really is beneath my surface perceptions of him...but i dont think i could ever walk down the halls holding hands with him haha...I guess there'd be an ever-thinning line between friend and lover there. but i dont think their relationship would ever be straightforward...

I actually like the ending a lot. at first i felt cheated. but then i thought about it and watched it a couple more times and its just perfect. I mean there is this implication that Angela finally understands Brian and that she will start to appreciate him more...and thats really all the justice i thought we needed. I felt complete. And I thought it was so realistic the way she drives off with Jordan still because she's in shock.

You're right about the end scene of the pilot, with Brian and Angela in the street lights...my favorite moment is when he calls after her and she says I gotta go..and he says this hesitant and concerned ok...and we feel he really cares about her. It's nice. :D

I am trying to make some fan videos on Youtube...i've got two posted so far. My username is msclfan02...go check them out if you have the time. One features Angela, and the other Rickie.

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Re: About Angela

Post by MonnyUK2 » Mar 3rd 2008, 8:42 am

Cami,
I totally agree with you on most points. I think that it Angela would have tried to reconnect with brian and get to know him but I guess he may have still taken this the right way. I feel that Brian needed to mature in his approach and may be date other girls before Angela. That is why Delia would have been good for him.

On an intellectual level Brian certainly has it over Jordan but he can't channel those into good social skills. In the argument in 'Why Jordan Can't Read' Angela nad Brian srgue about the bicycle thief and the fact that Angela only understood because Brian explained it to her. Could Jordan have understood if Angela iever did take him to see it. Would he have been interested? There are plenty of things that they could have talked about. Angela is seeking converstaion as she tells Rayanne in the 'Pilot' when she says she wants sex and conversation (ideally both). there is an intellectual side to Angela and a potential activist as we see in 'The Substitute'. Even Brian wanted to help her with the camapign at the end.

If Brian was as comfortable around Angela as he obviously was with Sharon then maybe it would have happened. I don't think they would have held hands because I think dating Brian would have seen Angela being out down by her peers and she does care what people think.

I still feel cheated Cami, I have to say. I undertstand your argument but I think one more season would have been perfect.

Winnie Holzman did say in the notes she wrote for the DVD that Brian would have been Angela's confident when she was having trouble with Jordan. If something may have come out of that then we will never know.

I think Rayanne should have spiked Brian's drink in a future epiisode, lol! Just to see what a drunk Brian Krakow would have been like. Throughout the season he does grow up to a certain extent and he does have the courage to look at Angela at the end when she knows his true feelings. I would love to sit and pull apart the series with other fans and watch episodes with them just to see what they think of certain scenes.

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Re: About Angela

Post by Cami A. » Mar 3rd 2008, 4:43 pm

Hey Monny,

We are both obviously obsessed by how often we manage to get on here and post our thoughts. I think that you brought up an interesting point about Brian being so comfortable with Sharon. Why was that? Maybe because he didn't like her and knew she needed him, so he had to be strong...I think you are really only nervous around someone you are really attracted to.

And yes, Angela definitely has a intellectual side or maybe thats the wrong word--philosophical might be more appropriate. You can tell by her voice overs that she likes to think about life and question things. I think she sees that there is potential for Jordan to be deep too...i mean look at the way he leans...and closes his eyes like it hurts to look at things. There must be something going on inside his head while he does this.

What you said about Angela not holding hands with Brian because she cares what other people think...made me think of a strange concept. I wonder if Angela would've become Jordan and Brian would've become Angela in the sense that Jordan took a long time warming up to the idea of publicly displaying his affection for Angela...holding hands.
That would've been great because it might also allow her to further understand Jordan. Maybe they could just be really good friends. I actually really liked the episodes where Jordan and Angela were friends... he was much better to her, and they actually did TALK.

That would be interesting to see Brian Drunk. Although I don't see it ending well. Maybe Angela would be there to take care of him :D That would be a nice change.
I wish we could all sit down and watch...a communal watching of the best tv show ever made. That would be an event!

Hope to hear from you soon,
Cami
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Re: About Angela

Post by MonnyUK2 » Mar 3rd 2008, 5:54 pm

Hey Cami,
I'm back on again so soon. I promise to do a spell check this time before I submit this message. Again, I think you are right on most counts. Something just occured to me about Brian and Sharon in 'Strangers in the House'. The scene after Sharon cries in Brian's arms when Brian and Ricky are walking down the corridor and Brian and Ricky discuss about him being some kind of phase. Also the fact that Brian is so disappointed when Sharon arranges a date with Kyle. Was he trying to get somewhere with her in this episode. I think in this episode she is guilty of using Brian just as Angela is guilty of using him.

Poor Brian he gets used and abused from all sides. In terms of Angela becoming Jordan and Brian becoming Angela I think this could have happened. In 'Father Figures' Brian says to Angela that you can't be onen way at one time and be nice at other times when you need something. This tells me that she is one way with him when they are on their own but another way when Ricky and Rayanne are around as in 'Dancing in the Dark'.

Angela was most definitely philosophical as she struggles with when she makes her new years resolution. Maybe something of Angela could have rubbed off on Jordan. The truth is we will never know. Do you think Angela and Rayanne could have made up and repaired their friendship? I think somehow that maybe Angela, Sharon, Ricky, Rayanne and Brian could have ended up hanging out a lot more in series 2, instead of Angela's friends being split into two groups.Brian and Sharon from her past and Ricky and Rayanne from the present.

There are so many ways the show could have gone which is one advantage of how it ended. I am currently writing a second episode of fanfic. I wrote my version of episode 20 called Brian + Jordan = Confusion. Have a read and let me know what you think. In reflection it could have been better but I think I did ok. I am half way through episode 21, been so busy can't get time to finish it.

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Re: About Angela

Post by Cami A. » Mar 3rd 2008, 9:25 pm

Hey Again!

I think Brian was thinking that something could happen with Sharon. I think he is desperate for female attention which is why he jumps at the chance to have Delia when she likes him. After he hurts her, he's still curious and seems a little disappointed when she starts crushing on Rickie instead. But as he expresses in the Wallpaper discussion with Graham...Delia and Sharon aren't as nice as the expensive Wallpaper...nothing will be a fitting substitute for Angela.

Oooh...I love that quote where Angela says what she really hates is when you get stuck somewhere with people who know you in completely different ways and you have to form a combination you. I feel that way when my friends and my parents are in the same room all the time :D I like how Brian seems to truly appreciate Angela for who she is which is why he's upset when she is sneaking out to Lets Bolt in the pilot ( This is different from how Sharon sees it...Sharon hates Angela's new hair because it symbolizes the new distance between them...but I like how in the end of Strangers in the house they show Sharon and Angela smiling at each other as they pass in the hallway and Angela's voice over says theres people who have you seen you grow and let you grow...)

About the two set of friends...I'm not sure that they will all become close like that...in fact i think they will start to couple off in strange ways. Angela's close friendship with Rayanne to me seems more like a phase to help her grow and find herself...but i dont think she will ever fully be able to act normal with Rayanne again. I see Rayanne and Sharon becoming really close...and perhaps Rickie and Delia...and maybe Brian and Angela..at least for a while. I think maybe situations will bring them all together and they will have to depend on one another--even Rayanne and Angela...but i don't think that they will ever be the same comfortable friends as they were.

I'll definitely take some time to go read your Fanfic.
I gotta finish an Accounting project due tomorrow first...so i'll get back to you soon.

Cami
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Re: About Angela

Post by Cami A. » Mar 3rd 2008, 10:02 pm

My thoughts on your Fanfic:

Referring to the looks people gave in certain episodes kind of takes the reader out of focus and makes them try to remember what that look was…instead of telling us what previous moment it looked like, just describe it…for example: Angela stared intensely at Jordan as if she was about to cry. I think fans will automatically picture a look they've seen Angela do before that was similar to you description…without u having to cite a moment.

On the interaction between the characters--I thought the interaction between Brian and Sharon was a little off. I don't know why she would expect Brian to tell her about his problems first? When has he ever come to her for help? However, I DO think it was appropriate that he did tell Sharon at that moment because I'm sure he's feeling extremely vulnerable and needs all the reassurance he can get.

Your voice overs are probably a little bit too obvious. They seem to serve the purpose of explaining the plot too much. If you are trying to emulate random thoughts like Winnie Holzman does (I'm not saying that you are, but if you are) then they should be much more sparse and randomized, not a narrative of what has or is happening…I got the same comments about my voice over's on a short half-finished fanfic chapter I posted a few weeks ago…it’s a hard thing to do because Winnie is like a genius.

Oh…and some characters seem to know details they shouldn't like although Brian saw the CD that Jordan gave to Angela…he says "THAT Song Red", as if he's heard it before...but I don't think he ever had in the first season. It just doesn’t seem realistic that dialog would tell out exactly every word of what happened…ppl are usually a bit more selective and sparse in the way they talk.

Other than that I think the plot is really good.
I never pictured Kyle as being so mean and jockish, but I like it, it's interesting…
I thought that was the most creative part. Poor Brian gets mixed up with Sharon's mess! Lol.
And how Rayanne takes care of Brian…interesting!

And my favorite line:
"Brian: I should have chosen the one I could afford." (about wallpaper)

Keep up the good work!

-Cami

P.s. I have a fanfic i am working on also.. I'll post it here later so you can tell me what you think.
"So, the mouse makes pressure, just by breathing?...I can relate."

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Re: About Angela

Post by ikilledkennyandjr » Mar 3rd 2008, 11:42 pm

Re: Angela

I think it's perfect that Angela was not some faultless heroine. At times she wasn't even the hero. I'm not sure what you mean by a "good person". She was inherently good, in my humble opinion ( :wink: ), but also flawed. Her actions were typical for a fifteen-year-old. She didn't know how to deal with her feelings or with others' feelings in a proper and mature way. It's hard to fully reprimand her for that. Take Sharon, for instance: how would you react to your ex-best-friend's upset over her father having a heart attack, keeping in mind that she'll barely talk to you, and also keeping in mind that you're a scared teenager? Or how about: your next-door-neighbour, who you've known since childhood, is in love with you and you may not even realize it--and if you do, he won't tell you, so how can you possibly react? Or how about... well, that whole situation with Rayanne and the band is way too complicated to even touch.

We all would say that we'd react better. But we didn't have to live those moments as a fifteen-year-old girl. Angela could be callous, even downright cruel. So could all the characters. They were all human. Thus, that sonnet by Shakespeare applies to all of them. "'They're not just fantasy. They've got like, flaws. They're real."

Re: Angela and Brian

On the DVD, Winnie Holzman said something would have happened between them in the second season. That makes me both happy and sad. Sad because it didn't actually happen. Happy because I can imagine it how I want, in all that awkward, stumbling perfection.

Did Angela see Brian as a brother? I've never actually thought of it that way. He did have that comforting, security-blanket quality that she wasn't really looking for in a boyfriend at that age. Her relationship with Jordan was a roller coaster, and she loved it. I think she had feelings for Brian but they were in her sub-conscious--take for example the end of Life Of Brian, where she asked him to dance. If she was really disgusted at the idea of romance with him, I doubt she would've wanted to slow-dance.

The fight in Why Jordan Can't Read is incredible! They acted so much like an old married couple. Not just in a romantic sense, but the way they knew each other so well, knew exactly how to push each other's buttons, and yet... the very next day, they were back to being semi-friends. Their relationship was secure. It could withstand a lot. Maybe then progressing to the "next level" wouldn't hurt so much. Or maybe if they split up, years of camaraderie would flush down the toilet. This isn't a concern for them alone, but for all friends who become lovers.

I don't know about the hand-holding thing. On one hand, Angela was self-conscious, but I don't think she was that aware of popularity. I think if she was truly in love, it wouldn't have mattered who held her hand. At the end of Self-Esteem, was she happy that Jordan took her hand because he's popular? No, she was happy because the guy she liked showed her tenderness and a desire to "commit".

But could she ever be as passionate about Brian? I think she'd need time to figure that out. She'd need closure with Jordan and Brian would need experience with Delia and/or some other girl. Just as Jordan and Angela would need time to figure out they're wrong for each other, Brian and Angela would need time--apart--to figure out if they're right for each other.
"You know, the karma in this house is like ridiculous. It's really low... or dark... whatever it is that happens to karma."

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Re: About Angela

Post by Cami A. » Mar 4th 2008, 12:37 am

Hey!
First I'd like to say that I saw one of your fan videos on YouTube...the one about Sharon and Rayanne having romantic interest in one another. I tried to post a comment there, but YouTube wasn't working properly. It was really great. I never noticed how many seductive looks Sharon and Rayanne exchange throughout the show. lol.

Second--Thanks for joining the conversation. You had some really great points! I know you really can't blame Angela for the way she acted. I probably would've been the same way...and after I said my original statement, MonnyUK2 made me realize that she is only human. I do think that some of the other characters were less selfish though--like Rickie and Delia.

Its interesting that you bring up Angela asking Brian if he wanted to Dance at the end of Life of Brian and how she wouldn't want to dance with him if she was disgusted by the idea of romantic moments with him. I think that gesture was more because she felt bad for totally taking advantage of him, and wanted to make it up to him...and fill the void Jordan left by dancing with someone...she does seem pretty disgusted earlier when Brian suggests that they might want privacy so they can dance. I think she does see him as a brother, someone to depend on...who u can never stay mad at for too long because he's family. Of course he's not quite on the same level as a real brother, and feelings could develop..but i still think she never thought about with any seriousness until the last 3 minutes of episode 19.

And i really liked your analysis about hand-holding. That is true that she loved how Jordan held her hand just because she wanted HIS affection not his coolness...but I still think even if she loved Brian she would have a hard time admitting it to the world, because she would have a hard time admitting it to herself. Maybe no because he's uncool but because he is Brian Krakow--she's known him since she was 5 and its hard to make acknowledge romantic feelings as real. I think private moments would be much more meaningful with Brian too, because she knows Brian is not ashamed of her, so she would not need so badly to display affection in public.

Do you really think Jordan and Angela are wrong for each other? I think there's much more to Jordan under there, and that she was in the process of slowly extracting it from him. I think Angela is meant for Jordan because it is a teacher student relationship in the sense that she is the leader and he is the follower. I know it doesn't seem like that because she takes a lot of crap from him at first, but Angela just needs to learn to respect herself more and take Jordan Off of the pedestal shes placed him on and it could be beautiful. She could teach him how to love. She would surely be the one to change him--you can already see it. Like the scene where he says "Wow. Ironic." to patty about Tony Pool being a bad driver in high school.

What do you think?
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Re: About Angela

Post by MonnyUK2 » Mar 4th 2008, 10:07 am

Hey Cami,
We have to stop meeting like this.lol! I liked your story and I think it picks up on some interesting themes. Two in particular. How would Angela react to Brian at school when she was with Jordan? Secondly, how would Rayanne's character develop?

On the first issue I feel that maybe should would have been more self concious when Brian was around. She had Jordan back, how much would she really care about Brian's feelings? I think she would have been a hypocrite if she blanked him after calling Brian 'Heartless'. It would have been a hard situation for Angela and would have been intersting how Winnie Holzman wrote it.

As for Rayanne I think there could be two scenarios. Fristly, that she goes even more offf the track and stratds to drink more or secondly she may have reformed herself. In 'Betrayal' we see Rayanne looking Angela like after the incident with Jordan. She straightens her hair (I think she looked nice like that) and her clothing becomes slightly conservative.

It takes time to write a lenghty fanfic and much thought. It is a lot fun as you can take the story the way you want it.

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