(Brian) Sweet and Innocent??

[Angela_Catalano]

I have just finished watching the whole series again and have noticed something.

Is Brian really all that sweet and nice as some people think??
I think if he would actually ever date Angela that he would be very Jealous of her. He would be possesive and Impossible to break up with. He might treat her really great at first, but if she would make him mad he would treat her horrible.

About the letter, He did use Jordan to kind of express his feelings to her.
I just dont think the letter really expessed Brians feelings towards Angela.
If you hear the letter again, its all from Jordans view of what happened. Apoligizing to Angela for what happened with Rayanne. It never really says Brians feelings.

And how great of a person Is Brian saying something like ( But she'll die one day, everyone will) That really bothered me! Even if hes mad that she is with Jordan, he should have never have said anything like that. It kinda makes him seem a little psycho!

Dont get me wrong, I like Brian's charector. I just think hes not as nice as people think...

Let me know what ya think!!

[Jody Barsch*]

I don't like describing anyone as innocent or not innocent, I'm okay with naive, but sweet and innocent, I don't like it. Yes Brian is inexperienced at this point of his life, but I don't think that that means that he is sweet and innocent. I am pretty sure that when he is mature enough to participate in a relationship, and engage in sexual experiences, that he will be very comfortable with it and be just fine. I don't forsee him becoming especialy possessive or jealous. Of course, we all have those brief little moments of being irrational, but as we grow up and learn what it means to be in a relationship they fade, and I'm confidant that ths will happen for Brian as well. I have always really loved Brian as a character, he's so funny, but something's seemed to shift this week, and I am suddenly very fond of him. I do think it's important to note both the positive and negative attibutes of his character -- he isn't perfect, he can be mean and shallow, but he's also awesome.

[emmie]

I have to agree with Jody. I don't think I've ever seen Brian as sweet or innocent. I think he is shy at times, and could possibly be described as passive. it's kind of funny to think of Brian in a relationship. mostly because he is so young and awkward with girls. but the thought of him being comfortable with someone... I guess the word comfortable is what I find funny. he would have to become comfortable with himself first. because when I picture Brian, I always picture him uptight, nervous, stressed, and freaking out about something. but those are my favorite Brian moments, so I'm not trying to ridicule him. I think he is just a normal geeky kid. he has his mean, selfish moments as well as thoughtful and kind.

[sunshine11]

I never cared much for the character Brian. I think it was his self-loathing that really annoyed me not to mention his stalkerish tendencies but I think this is something that he would grow out of. I didn’t ever consider Brian as sweet and innocent. I don’t think anyone on the show was.

[Jody Barsch*]

And how great of a person Is Brian saying something like ( But she'll die one day, everyone will) That really bothered me! Even if hes mad that she is with Jordan, he should have never have said anything like that. It kinda makes him seem a little psycho!

I think what is importnat to note here is that Brian isn't saying that he wants her to die. He isn't jabbing his fist in the air screaming "Die! Die!" (I'm not saying you were suggesting that.) What he says is a consolation. If Angela Chase is going to die someday, if she's not going to be around forever, if she is not the world, then it isn't as important that she isn't with him as it feels. If oneday she will die, that must mean that oneday Brian's hurt will fade too. I always love when he says it. It's just so what he would say to bring himself out of that world of yearning and longing. Just as at the dance, when he is noticing the scent of her hair, he doesn't let his feelings for her rule him. He feels that she has used him and made a fool of him and so he catches himself: "But I guess that’s just like her shampoo, or whatever." I really love that about him.

[Jody Barsch*]

I know in the past I've caused you pain, and I'm sorry. And I'll always be sorry, until the day I die. And I hate this pen I'm holding, because I should be holding you. I hate this paper under my hand, because it isn't you. I even hate this letter, because it's not the whole truth. Because the whole truth is...so much more than a letter can even say. If you want to hate me, go ahead. If you wanna burn this letter, do it. You could burn the whole world down. You could tell me to go to hell -- I'd go, if you wanted me to. And I'd send you a letter from there.
Sincerely, Jordan Catalano

I just dont think the letter really expessed Brians feelings towards Angela. If you hear the letter again, its all from Jordans view of what happened. Apoligizing to Angela for what happened with Rayanne. It never really says Brian’s feelings.

I’m not sure that’s actually true. Sure, Jordan has hurt Angela more than Brian has, but if you think about it, he has caused her pain (the rumor for one thing). But I think that line of apology is just a starting place. The letter rings with devotion and yearning, and those Brian does feel. More than apologizing for any one thing, I think the letter expresses a feeling of awe. Brian is in awe of Angela. He has said, when talking about “wallpaper”, that he feels that she is out of his league. Brian desires Angela, but I’m not sure he always feels he deserves her. Brian is not even able to recognize when other girls are interested in him, which usually comes from believing that nobody could be interested in you. I think maybe that because Brian knows that Angela is not interested in him, he feels that somehow it is his fault. I think that maybe that is where some of this apology stems from. It isn’t logical; but emotions can be confused that way sometimes, especially when you are young and inexperienced, and hurting. The letter is vague in particulars, it does fit Jordan’s story, but I also see it fitting Brian’s.

[Jody Barsch*]

While I am sticking by what I said above, I would like to clarify that I don't believe that Brian is always in awe of Angela. Her behavior towards him, for one thing, makes that pretty difficult. In Self-Esteem, through Jordan and Brian's joint reading of the sonnet, we acknowledge that she has faults, and that she can be loved, not in spite of them, but because of them.

[emmie]

And how great of a person Is Brian saying something like ( But she'll die one day, everyone will) That really bothered me! Even if hes mad that she is with Jordan, he should have never have said anything like that. It kinda makes him seem a little psycho!

I think what is importnat to note here is that Brian isn't saying that he wants her to die. He isn't jabbing his fist in the air screaming "Die! Die!" (I'm not saying you were suggesting that.) What he says is a consolation. If Angela Chase is going to die someday, if she's not going to be around forever, if she is not the world, then it isn't as important that she isn't with him as it feels. If oneday she will die, that must mean that oneday Brian's hurt will fade too. I always love when he says it. It's just so what he would say to bring himself out of that world of yearning and longing. Just as at the dance, when he is noticing the scent of her hair, he doesn't let his feelings for her rule him. He feels that she has used him and made a fool of him and so he catches himself: "But I guess that’s just like her shampoo, or whatever." I really love that about him.

I really like your explanation for that line about her dying one day. I guess I always thought of that as a humorous line about how he comforts hiimself. but I never really thought about it much. your reasoning shows an even deeper level to his feelings for Angela. I'm not a big Brian fan myself, but after having watched the dance episode recently, I do have more respect for him. mostly because of what you mentioned at the end of the dance. yeah, he totally lets Angela walk all over him most of the time, but it's not easy to stand your ground and not give in to someone, no matter how much you want it. kind of like when Angela goes to the boiler room after Jordan leaves her a note. at first she gives in because it is easy and she does want it, but she pulls back and confronts him. that's not easy.

[Angela_Catalano]

Jody says:

[/quote]I think what is importnat to note here is that Brian isn't saying that he wants her to die. He isn't jabbing his fist in the air screaming "Die! Die!" (I'm not saying you were suggesting that.) What he says is a consolation. If Angela Chase is going to die someday, if she's not going to be around forever, if she is not the world, then it isn't as important that she isn't with him as it feels. If oneday she will die, that must mean that oneday Brian's hurt will fade too. I always love when he says it. It's just so what he would say to bring himself out of that world of yearning and longing. Just as at the dance, when he is noticing the scent of her hair, he doesn't let his feelings for her rule him. He feels that she has used him and made a fool of him and so he catches himself: "But I guess that’s just like her shampoo, or whatever." I really love that about him.[/quote]


Thats a good way of looking at it, but I dont quite agree with that. At the moment he is really mad and I dont think he could possibly be looking at it that way.

About the letter, I still think its from Jordans point of view. I dont think that Brian really ever hurt Angela that bad, I dont think he really had any reason for apologizing to her.

I dont think Brian could handle a relationship with Angela. he liked her way to much, and he would definitly get disapointed if they were to get together. he wouldnt know how to act in a real relationship yet. I agree that he is still very awkward and shy to have one with anybody, especially Angela.

[Nostradamus]

The "she'll die someday" line is one of my favorites; Brian at his bitter low ebb. I think a lot of people find nihilism comforting in moments of despair, and only a very small number will ever act on those thoughts (BTVS fans, think of William The Bloody after Cecily rejected his courtship ), so I don't think it's all that creepy, just human.

About the letter, Brian may be apologizing to himself as much as to Angela. His continued dishonesty regarding his true feelings leaves him with a lot to regret.

[Jody Barsch*]

the letter, Brian may be apologizing to himself as much as to Angela. His continued dishonesty regarding his true feelings leaves him with a lot to regret.

Interesting thought...



"Fair?! Who's the fu**ing nihilists around here, you bunch of fu**ing crybabies?!" (can't resist the opportunity for a Lebowsky allusion)

[Natasha (candygirl)]

I think a lot of people find nihilism comforting in moments of despair, and only a very small number will ever act on those thoughts (BTVS fans, think of William The Bloody after Cecily rejected his courtship ), so I don't think it's all that creepy, just human.

I agree - people often think (and say) mean, hurtful things when they are scraping the bottom of the emotional bucket. I just finished reading A Heartbreaking Work of Staggering Genius by Dave Eggers and he mentions how when kids are upset, they sometimes have thoughts of becoming orphans. As an adult, it's a frightening prospect to imagine losing your parents, but as a child it's just something you think when you are angry.

About the letter, Brian may be apologizing to himself as much as to Angela. His continued dishonesty regarding his true feelings leaves him with a lot to regret.

I agree - we all live by our own set of moral rules, and Brian seems to realize that not only has he hurt Angela (by spreading the rumors about her sleeping with Jordan, as well as being the one who outs Jordan and Rayanne) but he has violated his own sense of right and wrong. He seems to be an "honesty is the best policy" kind of guy and he has not been honest with Angela about his feelings. In his letter, he apologizes for causing her pain, but he also says, "I even hate this letter, because it's not the whole truth. Because the whole truth is...so much more than a letter can even say." Brian places a lot of emphasis on the truth, knowing that he hasn't been entirely truthful with Angela, that in writing the letter he is continuing his lack of honesty and betraying his own sense of right and wrong.

Regarding the original post in this thread about Brian being sweet and innocent, I don't see it. I agree with what the other posters have said - being inexperienced, shy, and socially awkward is not the same thing as being sweet and innocent. Innocent is defined as "(1) free from guilt or sin especially through lack of knowledge of evil, (2) blameless, (3) harmless in effect or intention." Brian's actions don't fall under these definitions.

[Nostradamus]

I agree - people often think (and say) mean, hurtful things when they are scraping the bottom of the emotional bucket. I just finished reading A Heartbreaking Work of Staggering Genius by Dave Eggers and he mentions how when kids are upset, they sometimes have thoughts of becoming orphans. As an adult, it's a frightening prospect to imagine losing your parents, but as a child it's just something you think when you are angry.

Indeed; can you imagine the devastation Brian would feel if Angela really did die prematurely, especially if it happened before she found out who wrote the letter?

He seems to be an "honesty is the best policy" kind of guy and he has not been honest with Angela about his feelings. In his letter, he apologizes for causing her pain, but he also says, "I even hate this letter, because it's not the whole truth. Because the whole truth is...so much more than a letter can even say." Brian places a lot of emphasis on the truth, knowing that he hasn't been entirely truthful with Angela, that in writing the letter he is continuing his lack of honesty and betraying his own sense of right and wrong.

Precisely. I don't remember any exact quotes, but I recall several times throughout the series when Brian was bluntly honest with Angela, usually to her benefit, if sometimes insensitive. But of course he couldn't risk exposure, vulnerability, and rejection, and thus built up a wall of secrecy around his romantic feelings.

[MyLifeIsBrians]

I love the character of Brian. Sometimes he came across as a little rude because he was so honest but it was always something Angela needed to hear. I don`t think he was sweet and innocent but more like insecure and had a lack of confidence in himself.

[MonicaG]

I never cared much for the character Brian. I think it was his self-loathing that really annoyed me not to mention his stalkerish tendencies but I think this is something that he would grow out of. I didn’t ever consider Brian as sweet and innocent. I don’t think anyone on the show was.

I'm fairly new to the show but I don't care for him much either. It's that stalker quality you allude to. There's something kinda creepy about him. He seems like something of a throw away character. But like I said, I'm fairly new so maybe w/ time he'll grow on me.