Angela and Graham

General discussion about the nineteen episodes of "My So-Called Life". Note: Our episode guide can be found here.
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Angela and Graham

Post by Guest » May 21st 2003, 3:00 am

I hate when someone says Angela is just like Patty, so what she didn't pick up anything from Graham( I mean he IS her father after all)?

Guest

Post by Guest » May 21st 2003, 3:26 am

I mean common people, you can't just label a person saying"she's just like Patty", I mean what is that?Talk to me, I really want to know what you think

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lithiumkat
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Post by lithiumkat » May 21st 2003, 5:25 am

I think the reason that people talk about Angela being more like Patty more often is because of all the obvious ways that they are alike, for instance the "in my humble opinion" etc, etc, I mean obviously I"m sure there are also ways she is like Graham, for instance, her and Graham both tend to as Sharon told Angela "Shut people out" They tend to be very vague about things. But there seems to be more obvious outward ways that she is like Patty, and if it bothers you so much...why don't you start by telling us some of the ways that YOU think that she is like Graham. I mean...you say c'mon didnt she pick up anything from Graham he is her father, and say about how everyone always talks about her being just like Patty, ok then, tell us how YOU think she's like Graham, what do you see in Angela that she has picked up from her father???
"people always say how you should be yourself, like yourself is this definite thing...like a toaster or something, like you can know what it is even."

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Post by Guest » May 21st 2003, 12:51 pm

I'm sorry I didn't mean to be rude up there.

I must say I dislike Patty and I adore Angela(she is so adorable.I can totally see why those two guys crave her).Patty has all this major control issues and she is way to critical while Graham is more open-minded for different views and different people and that's exactly how Angela is.She is always inclined to see good in people, never jumps to conclusions about people based on just one thing( that explains her friendship with both Rayanne and Rickie-they are not exactly conventional type of person) for example,Patty immediately shows her disdain for Angela's new found friends immediately labeling Rayanne as "rude" and Rickie as "confusing.....He wears eyeliner( So what? He is gay or bi or whatever and that makes him somehow unworthy of Angela's frienship?)
On the other hand Graham's first comment to Patty about Rayanne is:
"Oh, look, I know how you feel about her but she's actually not a bad kid "(Father figures)
He is not saying she's a great kid either,his comment is pretty neutral due to the fact that he doesnt know her ,while Patty ,altough she doesn't know her ,has already formed a negative opinion.
Not to mention "So-called Angels" when she practically tosses Rickie out(luckily she realizes her mistake at the end of the ep) and in "Pressure" she assumes Angela and Jordan will have sex in his car("Car has doors,seats.."), altough Angela's not even close etc...

So, what I'm trying to say here is that Angela is more like Patty( like mother like daughter), but she also picked up some good Graham qualities as well for example his non -judgemental attitude which allows tolerance toward other people.
Also when Patty signs Graham up for that cooking class I'think that's great because you can tell he needs a little push( just like Jordan needs a little push when Angela sings him up for tutoring), but in "Self esteem",Patty turns into her critical mode saying stuff like"did you feel everyone was more experienced than you.." or when he says "Stephen Dietter is hard to follow" instead of simply asking"why" she goes"You mean for you to follow or..." I mean, she practically told him he was stupid or something..
On the other hand, Angela never underestimated Jordan's abilities nor his intelligance
Angela( to Mr.Katimsky)."What do you do when someone's like REALLY SMART IN LOT OF WAYS but isn't doing very well at school"(Resolutions)
Even after he slept with Rayanne she still believes that he is capable of writting such a beautiful, articulate, fluent letter actively disregarding the fact that just a few months earlier he didn't know how to correctly write her name(Angella)
Angela's faith in Jordan is immense,Patty's faith in Graham is occassional.
What I'm trying to say here is that Angela does pick up Patty's qualities but doesn't follow(or at least tries not to follow) some of her bad tendencies.
I hope that made some sense.
I apologize once more for my rudness.

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Post by lithiumkat » May 21st 2003, 1:30 pm

lol, its ok, i was kinda rude too. but you bring up some very good points, i agree about the good judgement calls that angela gets from graham, the open mindedness graham has that seems to balance out patty's harsh judgmentalness. (sp?) i was just irritated that you said that and didnt back it up with your opinions lol. but yes, you made some very good observations, although i must say a lot of the similarilies between ang and patty to me are still unmistakable. lol however OF COURSE she is going to pick up some mannerisms and things from graham as well.
"people always say how you should be yourself, like yourself is this definite thing...like a toaster or something, like you can know what it is even."

emilynn

Dad-daughter thing

Post by emilynn » Jul 13th 2003, 6:31 am

I like your idea of Graham as an important influence. I always imagined that in this pretend-show-universe that Graham was meant to be a softening influence on Angela to balance Patty's loving but stern ways. Also I thought maybe they cast Tom Irwin partly because he looked vaguely like Danes (both with round, gentle facial features) as opposed to Bess Armstrong who was much more elfin in appearance than Danes. After all, in reality most daughters take after their mothers physically, but Angela really didn't (as pointed out in "Self Esteem" where "ugly" Angela doesn't measure up to Beauty Queen Patty). Maybe Graham was meant to be the missing element there, not just emotionally but physically too.

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Post by Guest » Jul 13th 2003, 12:25 pm

Yeah, that's exactly how I see it.
I think Angela is incredibly attractive in that indirect, non-conventional way(the same can be said for Graham) while Patty's beauty was typical, maybe even ordinary.Anyway, I don't really like the way she looks.But then again I REAllY dislike Patty in general.

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Post by TomSpeed » Jul 13th 2003, 6:50 pm

Fathers and daughters sometimes have a closer bond than mothers and daughters. You hear the saying "daddy's little girl" quite a bit. I think Angela is a "daddy's little girl." She loves her father. They are very close to each other. Patty means it when she says that she thinks Angela loves Graham more in "Pilot." Any man who wants to date Angela will be measured against Graham, see "In Dreams Begin Responsibilities" and Angela's dream. Patty certainly influences Angela, but Graham is closest to Angela's heart.
TomSpeed

Patty: If Rayanne's not seeing you, and we're not seeing you, who is seeing you?
Graham: And how much of you?
Angela: Dad!
Graham: Oh, I'm sorry! I asked a question about your life, didn't I? Woah, what came over me?
http://www.last.fm/user/TomSpeed/

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Post by Guest » Jul 20th 2003, 4:01 am

and....i know i'm sort of switching towards another topic but since we are like comparing to graham and bringing up people angela would consider possible dates being like compared against graham who she somewhat places on a pedestal, i must again reiterate my observations about the graham/jordan similarities even though so many people tend to say that brian is like graham, which i simply don't very much see....think for instance of the striking resemblance, in angelas mind obviously even, in her dream where she catches up with jordan catalano and her parents are there, and it shows her dad and jordan next to each other...both in flannel shirts, and both of them turn around and look at her and walk off. exactly the same there. and, the fact that they are both not always the brightest at catching onto things and are kind of unaware and aloof. jordan with the being dumb about having a major, and graham when angela talks about anne frank makes me think of each other, and also the parallels between patty signing stubborn graham up for the cooking class which he takes reluctantly and somewhat complains that she up and signed him up, hmm strikingly similar to angela signing jordan up for the tutoring classes isn't it? anyway, i just *had* to bring this stuff up, more for everyones brains to digest. thought i'd share since i dwell on this stuff often.

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Post by lithiumkat » Jul 20th 2003, 4:04 am

*sighs* the above was me, somehow or another i managed to become logged out like mid post....but whatever, just wanted to let you guys know that that was me. *points up*
"people always say how you should be yourself, like yourself is this definite thing...like a toaster or something, like you can know what it is even."

Dark Apprentice

Mimicking others

Post by Dark Apprentice » Aug 7th 2003, 12:13 pm

I think Angela has a tendency of mimicking characters that she somehow admires or looks up to in some way. Especially in the episode "The substitute", she mimicks both of her parents (esp. Patty) in the scene where she confronts Vic with his rudeness the day before, when he tossed their Lit work out the window (she is using basically the same terms and phrases as her parents, "in terms of common courtesy", et.c). Later in the episode (I think it's when she's in the principal's office) she says: "There are a couple of truths", which is exactly how Victor Racine phrased it earlier when he and Angela talked about him abandoning his family.

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Post by Guest » Aug 18th 2003, 5:24 am

I think Angela picks up from Patty her moral values,sense of responsibility,thinking for herself etc...It's common for girls to pick up that kind of stuff from their mothers.But she definately picks up some things from Graham like her "tendency to shut people out"( "I don't wanna talk about it") or the silent treatment( Father figures-she expresses her anger towards her father through silence,so does he towards her when he finds out that she scalped the tickets).Also I think that both Angela and Graham experience similar changes through the show-in terms of finding oneself(Angela in finding her identity,her trues self and Graham in finding something he really wants to do-being a chef,restaurant etc...)

Also a few things about Patty and her issues.It's obvious that she likes to control people,she is also extremely critical at times and often assumes the worst.Source of that kind of conduct is probably the fact that she is adopted or as Angela puts it" she has abandonment issues".That's probably the reason why she is choking people around her-she doesn't want to lose them .Or as Angela puts it"Out of nowhere she'll get into this mood .And her lips get all tight.It's just so obvious that she's looking for someone to blame."

As for Jordan and Graham:there some obvious things that make them alike( Whatever happens,happens,easy going character,some gestures), which is the reason(partly at least) why Angela likes Jordan.But otherwise,I don't really think they are that similar.
Oh yeah, one more thing.They are likely to cheat,especially that Jordan.He's just one of those guys.

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Post by grim4746 » Aug 18th 2003, 11:59 am

I do think that Angela has picked up traits from both of her parents but I think most often she's taken on positive things from patty and more detrimental characteristics from graham. Angela's tendency to shut people out has already been brought up as a link to graham. I have to say that it annoys me to no end the way graham will not talk about what's going on when Patty is trying to talk to him but later on or a day or two later he will decide to let her know when they are in bed trying to sleep. This happened with the cooking class and at least one other time (I can't remember the instance right now it may have even been two seperate times with the cooking class). that just drives me crazy but Patty is totally understanding and always just rolls over toward him ready to listen and talk (whatever her faults she is patient and loyal). Actually Angela plays both of those roles. She will take whatever she can get from Jordan on his terms. Another subject sort of brought up is graham's tendency to say stupid things (which in fairness I think everyone on the show and in real life says these things sometimes, at least as often as graham). the example used was graham talking about anne frank (asking if she's in angela's class) and the poster said this seemed like jordan not knowing if he had a major. to me grahams comment seemed more in line with Angela's comment about anne frank being lucky and then her lame-ass explanation about being trapped with a guy she really liked. both comments were not made from genuine stupidity but because their minds were not really on the subject at hand. And I think that as someone said angela gets her 'open mindedness' from her Dad and tends to passover the judgmental nature of Patty. One example used is that Patty thinks Rayanne is trouble after barely meeting her and Graham thinks she's not a bad kid. I love Rayanne and she'd be a lot of fun to be friends with at age 15 but I think that a responsible parent should definitely have concerns about their child hanging out with Rayanne. Patty's instincts about her family are more often right than wrong so she trusts them. Graham doesn't want to think anything is ever anything but good (he "just wants everyone to be happy") so he'll just let himself believe that everything is fine and if it turns out it's not Patty will deal with it. This sort of wishful thinking mind set I think is one of the harmful things Angela has picked up and that it's this that lets angela believe Jordan wrote the letter (or that he'd make a good boyfriend in the first place).
I don't see many similarities between Graham and Jordan but I agree with what the guest poster said above about both being likely to cheat (though I'm not sure i'd say especially Jordan. I think we've seen Graham come closer to that)

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Post by Guest » Aug 18th 2003, 2:06 pm

grim4746 wrote: I have to say that it annoys me to no end the way graham will not talk about what's going on when Patty is trying to talk to him but later on or a day or two later he will decide to let her know when they are in bed trying to sleep. This happened with the cooking class and at least one other time (I can't remember the instance right now it may have even been two seperate times with the cooking class).
I agree.That's definately annoying.He is extremely evasive,and that kind of attitude can prompt people into reaching the wrong conclusions.Like in "Self esteem"( the cooking class ep), he gets angry when she says something like"Was it hard for you to follow the class or..." and he's like "What did I just say" and I'm like "practically nothing, man, that's the whole problem".It's almost like he's deliberately trying to provoke her or something and that's kinda nasty,if you ask me.Sure she has flaws also, but he's not making things any easier for her.


[
quote]guest Oh yeah,one more thing.They are likely to cheat,especially that Jordan.He's just one of those guys.

I really don't agree on what you said about Jordan.I mean,yeah he slept with Rayanne, but that wasn't cheating cos' he wasn't involved with Angela at that time.Do you guys honestly think that he would cheat on that sweet little thing.Because if he would then he's real scum.

DarkApprentice

Post by DarkApprentice » Aug 18th 2003, 3:32 pm

I really don't agree on what you said about Jordan.I mean,yeah he slept with Rayanne, but that wasn't cheating cos' he wasn't involved with Angela at that time.Do you guys honestly think that he would cheat on that sweet little thing.Because if he would then he's real scum.
In a sense, I think Jordan and Angela still had some kind of relationship "at that time", at least they were somewhat "involved". I mean, it's obvious that they were still drawn to eachother. Jordan was jealous of Corey and Angela was nowhere near "over" Jordan as she claimed.

Also the fact that Jordan and Rayanne were actually discussing Angela right before they "ummed" makes things even worse. I mean, how could they NOT be conscious of how their actions would affect a person they had just been discussing, seconds earlier?

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