Discussion for Episode 19: In Dreams Begin Responsibilities

General discussion about the nineteen episodes of "My So-Called Life". Note: Our episode guide can be found here.
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Natasha (candygirl)
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Discussion for Episode 19: In Dreams Begin Responsibilities

Post by Natasha (candygirl) » May 20th 2003, 1:55 am

Welcome to our final MSCL.com episode discussion!

:cry:

If you haven't already done so, please read the info about the weekly discussions here.

I highly recommend reading the Angela's World essay that pertains to this episode.

Other threads related to In Dreams Begin Responsibilities that may be of interest are:
The Letter
the power of the pen/pencil
Graham and Hallie

Some threads about recurring themes:
Patty and Graham suck
food
Angela, Rayanne, and Rickie

Threads that address the eternal Brian vs. Jordan question:
Brian and Angela
Brian, Angela, and Jordan
Angela's "relationship" with Jordan
Why Brian ends up with Angela
Should Angela have Jordan or Brian?
Angela's love for Brian
Could Angela and Brian ever hit it off as a couple?
How did you continue MSCL in your mind?
Natasha aka candygirl :: MSCL.com

Look, if this is weird for you, being tutored? I don't mind helping you a little longer.
You could have sex with me if you really want to help...I guess that's a "no"?

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TomSpeed
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Post by TomSpeed » May 20th 2003, 12:39 pm

I watched "In Dreams" again last night. I don't really remember how many times I've seen it. It could be as many as a dozen times. Watching the episode last night was like watching a horror movie. I kept saying aloud, "Don't do it, Brian." I was warning Brian not to tell Jordan what to say to Angela. I told Brian not to write the letter. It was like warning someone not to go down to the dark basement where a monster is lurking. Of course, my urging did not do any good. I don't know why I had this reaction. I'm not sure if it's relevant. But, there you go.
TomSpeed

Patty: If Rayanne's not seeing you, and we're not seeing you, who is seeing you?
Graham: And how much of you?
Angela: Dad!
Graham: Oh, I'm sorry! I asked a question about your life, didn't I? Woah, what came over me?
http://www.last.fm/user/TomSpeed/

Guest

Post by Guest » May 20th 2003, 1:15 pm

"Tell her you're scum,you're lower than scum, that you're not fit to lick her shoes"

I laugh so hard every time I see this.

And yeah, I now what you mean Tomspeed,I always tell him not to do it myself but he never listens. :cry:

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Post by TomSpeed » May 21st 2003, 12:29 pm

I don't know what to say about the last episode. I've become quite bitter about the fact that aren't any more episodes. I feel cheated. I came to know all of these characters so well. They can only live on in my imagination.

I think Graham really comes into his own in this episode. There is no longer a question of whether he is going to pursue his dream of opening the restaurant. He's committed. He decides to let his cooking do his talking.

I really, really, really don't like Hallie Lowenthal. One can only wonder if she will make a play for Graham or vice versa. I just don't buy the theory that a woman must take a good man from another woman. If another woman can turn a family man's head, what's to stop a future another woman from doing the same thing. I'm pretty sure that Graham is committed to Patty. But the possibility of something developing between Hallie and Graham can't be discounted entirely.

Is Patty disappointed that she chose Graham? There is a hint that she feels uncomfortable with the choices she has made in "Weekend." And her discussion about choosing reality over flashiness and the mention of divorce cannot be ignored. What is Patty missing in her life?

I'm going to gather more thoughts and post later.
TomSpeed

Patty: If Rayanne's not seeing you, and we're not seeing you, who is seeing you?
Graham: And how much of you?
Angela: Dad!
Graham: Oh, I'm sorry! I asked a question about your life, didn't I? Woah, what came over me?
http://www.last.fm/user/TomSpeed/

Guest

Post by Guest » May 21st 2003, 12:58 pm

I also hate Hallie, but I think the main reason why Graham feels attracted to her is that she believes in him- something Patty often oesn't show due to her way critical streak

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Post by meggrrrl » May 23rd 2003, 8:30 am

God, it's the end of the week and the last show and I feel like I should say something but I don't really know what to say either. When this show was origionally aired, I was taking a night class at a community college and I had set the VCR to tape it, but it ran out of tape, right during Patty's dream. I didn't have any friends that watched the show and it would be almost a year before I would see the end. When I finally saw the rest of the show, I fell in love with Brian. I guess Angela began to too.

While you're telling Brian "don't do it" - I tend to get very frustrated during that very last scene, yelling at Brian to "kiss her!!!!" but then Jordan of corse shows up. Why does she go with him? I would have. But only out of a sense of obligation or a habit. I would have run right back to Brian. But then again, I'm not Angela; me, I would have never gotten involved with Jordan in the first place. He's absolutely beautiful, but he's not my type, Brian is. (actually Graham is, but he's not exactly a choice in this love triangle, nor should he be!!!)

I love all the dreams. Angela's dream is so realistic to me. And how Jordan's dream mirrors hers - how their body language mirrors that scene without being too knock-you-on-the-head obvious, brilliant. Possibly my all-time favorite line (along with "because I live in the world") would be the one about being uncomfortable seeing someone after you dream about them "like it's gonna show."

I can't believe it's over. I can't believe it's not real. Boo hoo.

Meg

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Post by TomSpeed » May 23rd 2003, 8:41 pm

It just kills me to see Brian help Jordan. I tell him to stop, but he won't stop. Of course, his love for Angela and his inability to express his feelings makes him do it. However, there is nothing for him to gain by doing so. He can only build Jordan up in Angela's eyes. And he gets to see the consequences -- Angela and Jordan are back together.

I will always remember the last scene of the series. I really think Angela sees Brian with new eyes. Angela sees how much Brian cares for her for the first time. So, in a way, Brian benefits from helping Jordan. However, he also has brought Angela and Jordan more closer together than ever. I want Brian to tell Angela that he loves her before Jordan sees them together. But he cannot. Angela seems to hesitate before getting into Jordan car. She also looks at Brian as they drive away. It would be great if Brian kisses Angela before Jordan comes out of the house. Would Angela accept his kiss?

We can only speculate about what happens next. Do Angela and Jordan stay together? Does Angela drop Jordan for Brian? We will never know.

I think Angela's attraction for Jordan runs too deep for her to immediately drop him for Brian. Maybe sometime in the future it will happen. But it might not.
TomSpeed

Patty: If Rayanne's not seeing you, and we're not seeing you, who is seeing you?
Graham: And how much of you?
Angela: Dad!
Graham: Oh, I'm sorry! I asked a question about your life, didn't I? Woah, what came over me?
http://www.last.fm/user/TomSpeed/

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ho hum.....

Post by Lindsay » May 23rd 2003, 8:59 pm

Everyone does alot of growing, whether they want to or not in this episode. The LAST episode.
You know, as much as I would love to have another 19 episodes to watch, I really can't imagine the story going on. I can't fathom what would happen next.....

Guest

Post by Guest » May 24th 2003, 6:55 am

What do you guys think, does Jordan realizes that Brian is into Angela?I mean when Jordan asks him for help, he totally freaks out saying stuff like" no, absolutely not" and " I cannot be involved". And in the last scene Jordan gives him "this look" right before getting into the car.

I know we are always getting back to that, but this Jordan-Angela thing, how exactly is that gonna work?I mean, I don't think Angela is going to be ready for sex for AT LEAST a year or so,and let's face it, no matter how much Jordan loves her or cares about her, there's no way he can go on so long without gettig any.

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Post by TomSpeed » May 24th 2003, 12:50 pm

I don't think Jordan has a clue how Brian feels about Angela. If he did, I don't think he would ask him to help him win back Angela. I missed a knowing look from Jordan. I'll have to watch the scene again. Jordan does call Brian Brian instead of Brain in this scene. Maybe it means something. I can imagine that if Jordan suspects anything is going on between Brian and Angela, he will ask Angela about it.
TomSpeed

Patty: If Rayanne's not seeing you, and we're not seeing you, who is seeing you?
Graham: And how much of you?
Angela: Dad!
Graham: Oh, I'm sorry! I asked a question about your life, didn't I? Woah, what came over me?
http://www.last.fm/user/TomSpeed/

Guest

Post by Guest » May 25th 2003, 2:37 am

TomSpeed,
I think maybe, just maybe Jordan realizes something's going in the last scene.I mean, how would you react if you saw your girl talking to some guy, standing that close( they are like what? Two inches apart?) while he is looking at her obviously completely mesmorized?And they were so caught up in their conversation,they didn't even hear him coming(there are some pretty loud footsteps in the background)- he has to call out her name to get them to react.( I'm probably just reading to much into this)

I heard somewhere that if there was a second season, Angela would become more politically active, which I find very hard to believe considering her quiet, low-profiled character.She is definitely "writer" material, as you pointed out so well in your fanfic stories. So, I guess that "politically active" crap is completely bogus.I also heard that Patty and Graham would get a divorce.Did anyone else read that about them?

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Post by TomSpeed » May 25th 2003, 12:01 pm

Anonymous wrote:TomSpeed,
I think maybe, just maybe Jordan realizes something's going in the last scene.I mean, how would you react if you saw your girl talking to some guy, standing that close( they are like what? Two inches apart?) while he is looking at her obviously completely mesmorized?And they were so caught up in their conversation,they didn't even hear him coming(there are some pretty loud footsteps in the background)- he has to call out her name to get them to react.( I'm probably just reading to much into this)

I heard somewhere that if there was a second season, Angela would become more politically active, which I find very hard to believe considering her quiet, low-profiled character.She is definitely "writer" material, as you pointed out so well in your fanfic stories. So, I guess that "politically active" crap is completely bogus.I also heard that Patty and Graham would get a divorce.Did anyone else read that about them?
I think you make a good point. We hear Jordan's footsteps as he approaches Angela and Brian. Angela and Brian don't notice Jordan at all until he calls Angela's name. It's obvious that Angela seems reluctant to leave Brian. Jordan, in an attempt to encourage Angela to go with him, tells Angela that Patty said it was okay for them to go out. And Jordan does look briefly back at Brian as he gets into his car. So, it's a good possibility that Jordan does understand that something important just took place between Angela and Brian. I don't think he had a clue before that moment. But now he seems to understand.

I was wrong about Jordan calling Brian Brian. He still calls him Brain.

It's really hard to say what Angela and the gang will do in the future. Angela seems like a very sensitive and imaginative person to me. So, I made her a professor and a writer. But she could also easily become a Greenpeace activist or something. I guess the good thing about the series ending the way it did is that we can all continue it the way we want. There are no wrong answers.

I think many of us might have some problems with what is discussed in this post because Winnie's ideas about how the series might have continued do not match our own thoughts. But who's to say what Winne said during this class is what would actually have happened. Things often change after you start writing. But even if Patty and Graham get divorced and Angela becomes an activist, the writers of the show would have made everything work out.
TomSpeed

Patty: If Rayanne's not seeing you, and we're not seeing you, who is seeing you?
Graham: And how much of you?
Angela: Dad!
Graham: Oh, I'm sorry! I asked a question about your life, didn't I? Woah, what came over me?
http://www.last.fm/user/TomSpeed/

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Natasha (candygirl)
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Post by Natasha (candygirl) » May 25th 2003, 5:31 pm

I don't think it's very far-fetched to imagine Angela becoming an activist. After all, she became very impassioned about censorship in the Substitute. The reason that many high school students/young adults are politically apathetic is because they haven't been exposed to politics or issues that interest them. Considering how much effort Angela put into obsessing about Jordan, imagine what she could accomplish if she put some of that energy towards a cause that she felt very passionately about.
Natasha aka candygirl :: MSCL.com

Look, if this is weird for you, being tutored? I don't mind helping you a little longer.
You could have sex with me if you really want to help...I guess that's a "no"?

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Post by TomSpeed » May 25th 2003, 9:40 pm

It's kind of fun to speculate what the characters will become in their adult lives. I considered making Angela a nurse, since she mentions dreaming of being a nurse in the show. However, I decided that having her become a nurse just didn't work for me. I don't know much about nursing, but I do know a little bit about teaching and writing. I agree that Angela would be successful in whatever she chooses to pursue.
TomSpeed

Patty: If Rayanne's not seeing you, and we're not seeing you, who is seeing you?
Graham: And how much of you?
Angela: Dad!
Graham: Oh, I'm sorry! I asked a question about your life, didn't I? Woah, what came over me?
http://www.last.fm/user/TomSpeed/

Guest

Post by Guest » May 27th 2003, 6:47 am

candygirl wrote:I don't think it's very far-fetched to imagine Angela becoming an activist. After all, she became very impassioned about censorship in the Substitute. The reason that many high school students/young adults are politically apathetic is because they haven't been exposed to politics or issues that interest them. Considering how much effort Angela put into obsessing about Jordan, imagine what she could accomplish if she put some of that energy towards a cause that she felt very passionately about.
I have to admit, that makes sense.That girl has a lot of positive energy. And I agree with TomSpeed "that Angela would be successful in whatever she chooses to pursue."She's not the kind of person that makes wrong choices, at least not when it matters.

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