Patriot Act

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andrewgd
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Post by andrewgd » Apr 11th 2003, 2:38 pm

mglenn wrote:Heres the thing if you take away my guns then every other right I have is now GRANTED to me by the government. It can be taken away at their leisure. With a gun I can defend that right. This is exactly why every citizen should be able to own a fully automatic weapon. The idea of the second amendment was to ensure that the government never got the idea that the could take away the rights of the citizens.

You say too many people die from guns. I say far more will die if our freedom is taken away.
I understood your arguement until this point. If it is my understanding, there have been quite a few 'militias' that have been forcibly removed because they opposed our government and the rules it applied to the militia members. It didn't matter how many guns they had, if the US government wants you out, they'll bring as much force against you as necessary.

You mention our freedom is being taken away. What do you think of the Patriot Act, and the possibility that it will be extended indefinitely? Even the librarians of this country oppose the act. When the librarians are against it, you know something is wrong with it. :D
"Your imagination, like a child, will explode with unrestrained possibilities for adventure."

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mglenn
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Post by mglenn » Apr 11th 2003, 9:56 pm

andrewgd wrote: I understood your arguement until this point. If it is my understanding, there have been quite a few 'militias' that have been forcibly removed because they opposed our government and the rules it applied to the militia members. It didn't matter how many guns they had, if the US government wants you out, they'll bring as much force against you as necessary.

You mention our freedom is being taken away. What do you think of the Patriot Act, and the possibility that it will be extended indefinitely? Even the librarians of this country oppose the act. When the librarians are against it, you know something is wrong with it. :D
And here we can agree. I do not agree with the Patriot Act at all! All of its privacy reducing issues really rub me wrong. Am I worried that Bush is out to get me because I am a gun toting right winger, who believes that the war on drugs is stupid? No, but I am worried about where it can go in the wrong hands. I personally believe that Tom Ridge (who was the govenor of PA, where I live) is out to protect this nation. And I also trust that attorney general is out to find and stop terrorist. But the road to hell is paved with good intentions! I am worried about those that come latter and how they will use these laws. And I'm with you on this one. This law need struck down. We could spin off here into a whole discussion on the Commerce Act and how the Constitution has been whittled away since its passage. And then move into the copyright extentions that are reducing american drive and inventiveness. Then from there we could jump off on to tort reform.

But heres the facts in 200 years we've gone from a couple of log and adobe huts to the hyperpower of the world where we can freely discuss these issues. Have we made mistakes? Yup! Will we make more? Certainly! But its our freedom that has allowed it all.

On a sidenote: With the whole disucssion of rights and where the come from I'd like to add a little aside about the whole "under God" issue with the Pledge.
I Pledge Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America
and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God,
indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
And now to Declaration of Independence:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
So what i'm sayin here is that rights desend from a higher power. Whether you believe in God, Allah, Yaway or Budda it doesn't matter what its saying is that there is a certain higher authority and we all know the basics of what is right and what is wrong. The "under God" is a scape clause, you are pledging your allegence but but within limits. And when that allegence is tested against the higher authority it is the higher authority that wins.

I hope at least some of that made sence. The cold meds are really kickin in now. :lol:
"When I disagree with a rational man, I let reality be our final arbiter; if I am right, he will learn; if I am wrong, I will; one of us will win, but both will profit." - Ayn Rand

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lance
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Post by lance » Apr 15th 2003, 11:20 am

mglenn wrote:
andrewgd wrote: I understood your arguement until this point. If it is my understanding, there have been quite a few 'militias' that have been forcibly removed because they opposed our government and the rules it applied to the militia members. It didn't matter how many guns they had, if the US government wants you out, they'll bring as much force against you as necessary.

You mention our freedom is being taken away. What do you think of the Patriot Act, and the possibility that it will be extended indefinitely? Even the librarians of this country oppose the act. When the librarians are against it, you know something is wrong with it. :D
And here we can agree. I do not agree with the Patriot Act at all! All of its privacy reducing issues really rub me wrong. Am I worried that Bush is out to get me because I am a gun toting right winger, who believes that the war on drugs is stupid? No, but I am worried about where it can go in the wrong hands. I personally believe that Tom Ridge (who was the govenor of PA, where I live) is out to protect this nation. And I also trust that attorney general is out to find and stop terrorist. But the road to hell is paved with good intentions! I am worried about those that come latter and how they will use these laws. And I'm with you on this one. This law need struck down. We could spin off here into a whole discussion on the Commerce Act and how the Constitution has been whittled away since its passage. And then move into the copyright extentions that are reducing american drive and inventiveness. Then from there we could jump off on to tort reform.

But heres the facts in 200 years we've gone from a couple of log and adobe huts to the hyperpower of the world where we can freely discuss these issues. Have we made mistakes? Yup! Will we make more? Certainly! But its our freedom that has allowed it all.

On a sidenote: With the whole disucssion of rights and where the come from I'd like to add a little aside about the whole "under God" issue with the Pledge.
I Pledge Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America
and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God,
indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
And now to Declaration of Independence:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
So what i'm sayin here is that rights desend from a higher power. Whether you believe in God, Allah, Yaway or Budda it doesn't matter what its saying is that there is a certain higher authority and we all know the basics of what is right and what is wrong. The "under God" is a scape clause, you are pledging your allegence but but within limits. And when that allegence is tested against the higher authority it is the higher authority that wins.

I hope at least some of that made sence. The cold meds are really kickin in now. :lol:
Mglenn,

Glad to hear your stand on the Patriot Act and its spawn, the Patriot Act II. This apparently is one thing that liberals and conservatives seem to have in common these days.

:shock:

As for Ashcroft, dude you have way more faith than I do in his intentions.

As for the pledge...

This is one of those things that sounds great in theory, but not so good in practice. Not all children who attend public school are religiously observant. Having attended public school (see previous thread) I can firmly attest to the power, good and bad, of peer pressure. Those children who refuse to say the pledge, for what ever reason, can become the objects of scorn, ridicule and bullying.

Best,

Lance Man

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patriot act

Post by lance » Apr 15th 2003, 11:55 am

andrewgd wrote:
mglenn wrote:Heres the thing if you take away my guns then every other right I have is now GRANTED to me by the government. It can be taken away at their leisure. With a gun I can defend that right. This is exactly why every citizen should be able to own a fully automatic weapon. The idea of the second amendment was to ensure that the government never got the idea that the could take away the rights of the citizens.

You say too many people die from guns. I say far more will die if our freedom is taken away.
I understood your arguement until this point. If it is my understanding, there have been quite a few 'militias' that have been forcibly removed because they opposed our government and the rules it applied to the militia members. It didn't matter how many guns they had, if the US government wants you out, they'll bring as much force against you as necessary.

You mention our freedom is being taken away. What do you think of the Patriot Act, and the possibility that it will be extended indefinitely? Even the librarians of this country oppose the act. When the librarians are against it, you know something is wrong with it. :D
Speaking of libraries and librarians and the Patriot Act...

Different library systems have respondly in different ways to this piece of legislation. In the San Jose, pretty sure that's the city, CA they have signs posted warning patrons that their library records are subject to federal invesitigation at anytime.

Here in Cincy our library keeps no public records. Once a patron returns items they are removed from their card and deleted. Employee records are only supposed to be kept for one year before they are shredded.

Best,

Lance Man

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TomSpeed
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Re: patriot act

Post by TomSpeed » Apr 15th 2003, 12:50 pm

lance wrote:Different library systems have respondly in different ways to this piece of legislation. In the San Jose, pretty sure that's the city, CA they have signs posted warning patrons that their library records are subject to federal invesitigation at anytime.

Here in Cincy our library keeps no public records. Once a patron returns items they are removed from their card and deleted. Employee records are only supposed to be kept for one year before they are shredded.
I like the movie Se7en. One of the plot points in the movie is that the FBI keeps tabs on certain books people check out at libraries -- books on bomb making, satanism, overthrowing the government, etc. Even though this is a movie, I have no doubt that the government has and does monitor the reading habits of Americans. It only makes sense. So, I wouldn't be so sure that all records are deleted.
TomSpeed

Patty: If Rayanne's not seeing you, and we're not seeing you, who is seeing you?
Graham: And how much of you?
Angela: Dad!
Graham: Oh, I'm sorry! I asked a question about your life, didn't I? Woah, what came over me?
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Re: patriot act

Post by lance » Apr 15th 2003, 12:57 pm

TomSpeed wrote:
lance wrote:Different library systems have respondly in different ways to this piece of legislation. In the San Jose, pretty sure that's the city, CA they have signs posted warning patrons that their library records are subject to federal invesitigation at anytime.

Here in Cincy our library keeps no public records. Once a patron returns items they are removed from their card and deleted. Employee records are only supposed to be kept for one year before they are shredded.
I like the movie Se7en. One of the plot points in the movie is that the FBI keeps tabs on certain books people check out at libraries -- books on bomb making, satanism, overthrowing the government, etc. Even though this is a movie, I have no doubt that the government has and does monitor the reading habits of Americans. It only makes sense. So, I wouldn't be so sure that all records are deleted.
True ya never know, but I have faith in our antiquated computer systems inability to retain data. The crashes around here are frequent.

TomSpeed would you feel comfortable knowing that someone was reading your booklist? Would you feel comfortable knowing that a profile maybe drawn up on you based on what you may or may not have read? Would you feel comfortable if the government shared that profile with credit card companies, airlines, local police, health care companies?

Best,

Lance Man

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Re: patriot act

Post by TomSpeed » Apr 15th 2003, 1:57 pm

lance wrote:
TomSpeed wrote:
lance wrote:Different library systems have respondly in different ways to this piece of legislation. In the San Jose, pretty sure that's the city, CA they have signs posted warning patrons that their library records are subject to federal invesitigation at anytime.

Here in Cincy our library keeps no public records. Once a patron returns items they are removed from their card and deleted. Employee records are only supposed to be kept for one year before they are shredded.
I like the movie Se7en. One of the plot points in the movie is that the FBI keeps tabs on certain books people check out at libraries -- books on bomb making, satanism, overthrowing the government, etc. Even though this is a movie, I have no doubt that the government has and does monitor the reading habits of Americans. It only makes sense. So, I wouldn't be so sure that all records are deleted.
True ya never know, but I have faith in our antiquated computer systems inability to retain data. The crashes around here are frequent.

TomSpeed would you feel comfortable knowing that someone was reading your booklist? Would you feel comfortable knowing that a profile maybe drawn up on you based on what you may or may not have read? Would you feel comfortable if the government shared that profile with credit card companies, airlines, local police, health care companies?

Best,

Lance Man
The fact is that I wouldn't really know if it is done or not if I didn't break any laws. Does the government spy on its own citizens? I'm sure it does. Is the information the government probably collects on most people admissible in court? Probably not, but that information could lead to other information that is admissible in court. Is it fair and strictly legal? Probably not, but life isn't fair. Could that information save lives? Probably. Granted, I don't know if the FBI does keep a file on everyone. But we couldn't do anything about it if it does maintain such files. Freedom isn't free. The Patriot Act is an interesting piece of legislation because it probably legalized a great deal of snooping the government has been doing all along. We certainly do run a risk that information can be used in a malicious manner. However, I accept the fact that the government probably knows more about me than I could imagine. I'm not building a log cabin in the woods anytime soon.
TomSpeed

Patty: If Rayanne's not seeing you, and we're not seeing you, who is seeing you?
Graham: And how much of you?
Angela: Dad!
Graham: Oh, I'm sorry! I asked a question about your life, didn't I? Woah, what came over me?
http://www.last.fm/user/TomSpeed/

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lance
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Re: patriot act

Post by lance » Apr 15th 2003, 4:10 pm

TomSpeed wrote:
lance wrote:
TomSpeed wrote: I like the movie Se7en. One of the plot points in the movie is that the FBI keeps tabs on certain books people check out at libraries -- books on bomb making, satanism, overthrowing the government, etc. Even though this is a movie, I have no doubt that the government has and does monitor the reading habits of Americans. It only makes sense. So, I wouldn't be so sure that all records are deleted.
True ya never know, but I have faith in our antiquated computer systems inability to retain data. The crashes around here are frequent.

TomSpeed would you feel comfortable knowing that someone was reading your booklist? Would you feel comfortable knowing that a profile maybe drawn up on you based on what you may or may not have read? Would you feel comfortable if the government shared that profile with credit card companies, airlines, local police, health care companies?

Best,

Lance Man
The fact is that I wouldn't really know if it is done or not if I didn't break any laws. Does the government spy on its own citizens? I'm sure it does. Is the information the government probably collects on most people admissible in court? Probably not, but that information could lead to other information that is admissible in court. Is it fair and strictly legal? Probably not, but life isn't fair. Could that information save lives? Probably. Granted, I don't know if the FBI does keep a file on everyone. But we couldn't do anything about it if it does maintain such files. Freedom isn't free. The Patriot Act is an interesting piece of legislation because it probably legalized a great deal of snooping the government has been doing all along. We certainly do run a risk that information can be used in a malicious manner. However, I accept the fact that the government probably knows more about me than I could imagine. I'm not building a log cabin in the woods anytime soon.
Fair enough.

Best,

Lance Man

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patriot act

Post by lance » Apr 16th 2003, 10:59 am

Here is a handy dandy link to an article discussing Republican political opinion on the Patriot Act:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uslatest/stor ... 64,00.html

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Lance Man

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Post by andrewgd » Sep 28th 2003, 4:11 am

I heard this quote, and seemed fitting to throw it in this thread:
What do you say about a government that goes out of its way to protect even citizens who try to destroy it?
That's what our freedoms and rights mean. That's how strongly we should fight to protect those freedoms. To be strong enough, and good-willed enough to accept and even protect those that would do us harm. If we can stand up, with open arms and say, "You may hate us, but we will be strong enough to protect your right to hate us." That is strength. If only this was hour our government acted.

If that was how we acted, when we do prosecute (or even attack) these people, we can be just about it. We can know for a fact that what we have done is right.
"Your imagination, like a child, will explode with unrestrained possibilities for adventure."

RCBS
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Re: Patriot Act

Post by RCBS » Aug 10th 2011, 1:49 pm

Ribs.
Last edited by RCBS on Dec 17th 2016, 12:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

RCBS
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Re: Patriot Act

Post by RCBS » Dec 16th 2016, 11:49 pm

Pie.

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