Question about Shane and Jordan in Self-Esteem

[beatriz_spain]

After reading my last two posts in this topic, I think I give the impression that i don't like Angela. I love Angela (you surely do if you are a MSCL fan); I just try to analyze her relationship with Jordan from another point of view.

[Bacchante]

I can't convince you, because I agree with you. In my opinion, it is a pity that Angela was not in the classroom to listen what was said, because for me it is her the one who has problems to see Jordan as a real boy/man, and not an idealization of the perfect one. If she is able to understand that he has got flaws, she will accept that in the world of real relationships there exists the possibility that you and the man you love have a different timing when it comes to the first time, that he could prefer cold cuts rather than kissing you or that maybe he composes songs thinking of his car and not of you, or that he is not able to write (or read) a love letter. [...] He doesn't state it clearly, but he continues having a friendship (love relationship, in my opinion) with her, and in the hilarious library scene in chapter 16, he makes clear he is still waiting, but he is patient. [...] She wants her friends to be different from other kids, but not so much as to disrupt her perfect middle-class life. When reality comes with all its force, she feels fear.

Ah, what interesting points you bring up I very much agree with them overall. Maybe you have found the explanation for why I love the scene in the library so much-- because what he says could be interpreted exactly as you interpreted it, rather than as him pressuring her.

I think though that we can't really expect her to know that it's okay for your man to prefer cold cuts to kissing her, not at this age. I mean, even I still bitch at my boyfriend sometimes when he's distracted-- I only recently learned not to do that, and I'm 25 It requires suppressing your ego, and the egos of teens are quite strong, I think.

And regarding the "perfect middle-class life"-- I never really though about that aspect, but I think I agree with you. But again, it's hard to give up the comfort of that life when you're so young, cause you don't know what will happen. And not giving up that comfort could be a survival mechanism-- after all, that's one thing that could stop you from hanging out with drugs addicts and such (not like Rayanne, but like those who do serious drugs).

[beatriz_spain]

Maybe you have found the explanation for why I love the scene in the library so much-- because what he says could be interpreted exactly as you interpreted it, rather than as him pressuring her.

I love this scene as well. This is my favourite one after the one in the hallway when he takes her hand, because of several things. First, because the "Is this how you live?" part is really funny, and it makes you love both Jordan and Brian. Second, because it contradicts what many posts here state, that is, that Jordan and Angela have never had a real conversation, because whenever they talk their conversations are superficial, tense and unconfortable since he is dumb and have nothing to say. I don't mean that it is a profound or trascendental conversation, of course, but HE MAKES HER LAUGH. This is the first time in the show that I see her laughing in such a spontaneous, joyful way, and he is the one who makes it. I think it is an important step in their relationship, and proves that he can contribute to their communication as well.

[beatriz_spain]

A key component of the show is people going about their lives the only way they know how, only to realize in the middle of things (or after the fact) that their choices were ill-advided, foolish, self-serving, careless, etc. MSCL highlights so well that no matter how self-aware we think we are (voice overs and all) we don't always see ourselves. (Am I 1. off base on this? 2. Totally off topic from where this post started? It's been a loooong week,)

Of course it is not off topic; I think your point is really interesting. In the Angela's World analysis of chapter 7 (Why Jordan can't Read) the same thing is stated. It explains how, throughout the whole chapter, Angela tries to exert control on everything it happens (maybe it is the result of being Patty's daughter ) just to realize that everything turns out differently. She writes the letter to make her feelings more rational (but it gets lost), she concludes that by knowing Jordan's limitations they will reach another step (and in my opinion they don't, despite the kiss), she thinks that because they have kissed he will be willing to meet her parents (and we see the results). As you have said, self-awareness is not enough to be achieve your goals, or to see external reality as it is.

[Superjesus]

Hello,

In the last part of the episode where Jordan is standing at his locker, before he walks up to Angela, is Shane encouraging Jordan to go over to Angela or is he making fun of Jordan for liking Angela? I couldn't really tell. Is he shocked that Jordan walkes off holding Angela's hand? What do you think?

I think he's being encouraging. It's probably just something like "go get her bro, I'll catch you later." You can see he's sort of smiling as Jordan and Angela walk away together.

That's basic bro code - you don't get in the way of your bro and a girl (unless she's shockingly fat and ugly).

[Jody Barsch*]

I love this scene as well. ... Second, because it contradicts what many posts here state, that is, that Jordan and Angela have never had a real conversation, because whenever they talk their conversations are superficial, tense and unconfortable since he is dumb and have nothing to say. I don't mean that it is a profound or trascendental conversation, of course, but HE MAKES HER LAUGH. This is the first time in the show that I see her laughing in such a spontaneous, joyful way, and he is the one who makes it. I think it is an important step in their relationship, and proves that he can contribute to their communication as well.

Interesting... Is she laughing because he took her by surprise, so out of context as it was, and she's still uncomfortable about the subject and the laughing is a nervous reaction, or because Jordan has made a joke that they're both in on and she's genuinely laughing because she thinks it's funny?
I've always thought it was the first. But maybe I've just never given Jordan that much credit to be so self-aware as to make such a joke. I do think he said it somewhat jokingly in the sense that he didn't really expect her to say yes, but I think he also said it to say it, and was never intending to get a laugh. Very interesting...

(I love this scene, too, her laugh is great, and I love the way he watches her. My favorite Angela laughing moment is in "Halloween" when Rayanne repeats that Brian left his keys in Rickie's pants."

That's basic bro code - you don't get in the way of your bro and a girl (unless she's shockingly fat and ugly).

Ouch. I do think the use of "shockingly" is funny though.

[Superjesus]

It seemed kinder than "ridiculously" or "insanely".