Question about Shane and Jordan in Self-Esteem

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Post by Clockwork orange » Jan 3rd 2004, 1:04 pm

Jody, I completely agree with everything you said about Catalano.He likes sex(who doesn't,right?-Okay, I guess there are people who don't ,off topic,I'm gonna stop now) so he has sex, and you're completely on track about his feelings for Angela and the abandoned house situation.

And Deleted item,you really gotta stop this "bragging talk"; he screws chicks, gets some and he doesn't really care who knows,you know?Now,can we drop that subject ?( that's really funny because I'm the one who started this again :P )
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Post by Jody Barsch* » Jan 4th 2004, 4:56 am

I’m sorry Clockwork Orange, I know you asked to stop this thread, but I put some thought into this, and it isn’t exactly on the topic of bragging, so hopefully you and anyone else sick of this thread will be understanding.
Deleted item wrote:And you know why he's so mad at her?Because she embarrassed him in front of those people in that house-she hurt his poor, little,fragile ego
I think Jordan’s mad at Angela for several things:

1.) She is making up excuses A) Rayanne, B) Flu shot, for why she won’t sleep with him – it is lame and immature, and she should have at least been honest with him – she never really tells him until he comes by her house what she is thinking or how she is feeling. As audience members we get that Angela is a bit scared and very hesitant to actually have sex, but to be fair to Jordan, she never communicates any of this to him – she puts it off, changes the subject, but never says anything to indicate how she is actually feeling. Jordan (as we know by now) cannot read her mind, and really thinks that she is on the same track as he is. True, he knows that she needs to be persuaded (“just, entering” “This is the whole reason I didn’t want to start this in the first place”), but I really don’t think he considers, or has any reason to from Angela’s interactions with him, that she definitely does not want to have sex.
Also, Jordan reveals in this scene the value he places on honesty. While he never talks about it prior to or after this scene, it does fit with what we know of him as a character: From early in the series we see that Jordan is a mellow guy, who, although not entirely, is more mature- or tries to be – than his peers. Maybe it isn’t even maturity, but just an element of coolness? He would rather lounge than mosh at Tino’s; he is often on the sidelines (Halloween, at Louie's, Pike Street); he is always cool; he comments that Angela act young for her age … I think that honesty falls into this, honesty about one’s sexual desires at the very least. Jordan accepts that sex is a part of adult life: ‘it’s accepted, it’s what you’re supposed to do”, rather than fixating on “the fact of it” as Angela does. She is still fascinated by the idea of sex rather than the reality of it.
Side thought: Perhaps no one has modeled for Jordan what an adult
loving relationship Is like. To him this means sex. Jordan perhaps
does not know another way to be with Angela and consummate his
feelings for her – not that sex always means this for Jordan, but
he’s pretty sure that sex is a part of all female-male relationships,
which he is trying to have with Angela.

2.) Besides honesty/maturity, Jordan is attracted to Angela – watch him watching her at the end of “Strangers in the House” and in his car in “Pressure”. He wants to sleep with her, to be closer to her, and is understandably disappointed/frustrated when this desire is not realized. Especially considering that from his point of view he didn’t get any indication from her that it wouldn’t happen. I think that he is angry that she let it go as far as she did without telling him – they were there in the house, when was she planning on talking to him about it? It is hard for him to understand that she is still trying to figure out what is best for her. Jordan probably never experienced this ambiguity and therefore cannot empathize with her position.

3.) Also, Angela did pretty much ditch him in public, in front of his social peers, including at least on girl he used to sleep with. This is embarrassing for him, especially considering the manner in which she left: awkward, making excuses, bumping into Cynthia, not the cool “I gotta go” exits of Jordan Catalano. Of course Jordan is not happy with her for not sleeping with him, but I get the sense that it is more the style in which she did it that makes him angry – the lying, excuses, awkward (and in his eyes) uncool/immature behavior.
This is not to say that if she had confronted him with her reservations from the beginning that he still wouldn’t have broken things off (I think he would have*) but I think it would have resembled their goodbye at her house rather than the scene in his garage, which was prompted by frustration, embarrassment, and possibly a slight sense of betrayal.


*I do not think that given that Angela had explained to Jordan her reservations rather than avoiding the issue and thereby in a sense leading him on, he would have ended their “relationship” as it were. Jordan at this point still has not realized that he needs Angela (“In Dreams”) and has therefore not yet realized that there is more than just sex to a caring relationship (which I argue he discovers through his interlude with Rayanne). In “Pressure” Jordan expects a relationship to deliver sex, and he can afford breaking up with her because he knows she will still be in his life: “see you tomorrow.” Through substituting, for a night, Angela (for whom he has real feelings for), with Rayanne, (for whom he dislikes or is at least ambivalent about), and losing almost all contact with Angela because of it, I would argue that he begins to: A) learn what he really wants, and B) form a better understanding of a relationship. I think that when he reenters a relationship with Angela in “In Dreams”, he does so with the knowledge that there may be no sex involved.
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Post by Jody Barsch* » Jan 4th 2004, 5:00 am

Deleted item wrote: And later in the "abnormal scene", he says " It's what you're supposed to do.It's expected".Expected by who?His friends,of course..
Jordan says that sex is accepted not expected. Big difference. While Jordan definitely is, at least at times, conscious of what others think of him, I do not think that that is a driving force in this conflict between him and Angela.
Jordan understands that sex is accepted by society; he has participated in it, as has his peers; he cares about Angela and is attracted to her; and because he is doing what she expects of him – not interrupting her (or at least apologizing for it), waiting for and working up to appropriate moments, holding her hand in the hall … he expects that she will meet him halfway. Another reason why Jordan is frustrated with Angela.
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Post by Jody Barsch* » Jan 4th 2004, 5:04 am

Deleted item wrote: I really can't figure out why is Angela so into him.It just doesn't seem realistic.I understand why she was obsessed with him before she even talked to him.She had her little ideal image of him in her head and she played it over and over again.But by now(end of the show) she should really know better.Jordan constantly acts inconsistently with her perfect fantasy that she created in her mind.So one should expect that Jordan's awful behaviour would encourage her to either "get over him" or to replace "the Jordan Catalano fantasy" with another obsession.
Even though Jordan does not live up to Angela’s expectations [which I feel even a better man than Jordan would be unlikely to do as Angela in many ways is still more interested in the idea of having a boyfriend than actually having one: “I thought by the age of fifteen I would have a love life”). I recognize in Angela the period of female adolescence when a girl’s pre/early teen fantasies about being a teenager – having a boyfriend etc., overlap with or are confronted by the less idealic reality of that time of life. Angela is forming real desires that conflict with her expectations for herself and that make her afraid of her earlier brazen but safe fantasies. In the Pilot Angela says she would either have sex or a conversation with Jordan – this s easy for her to say when it seems so impossible – it is a fantasy. When the fantasy becomes an actual possibility in “Guns and Gossip” she panics and retreats and has to wash her face “It's such a lie that you should do what's in your heart. If we all did what was in our hearts, the world would grind to a halt.” When the fantasy seems close to becoming a reality in “pressure”, Angela has to recognize in herself that even sex AND several conversations is not ideal, she needs more than this.
(I think it was “Angela’s World” that points out that Angela is still focused on he fantasy of Jordan – no cold cuts, while Jordan is rooted in the reality – in reality you have sex and may at times be hungry.)] this does not necessitate that she will lose interest in him, Remember, both Jordan and Brian reaffirm their interest in and desire for Angela when they recognize that she isn’t perfect, she has flaws. It is our faults that make us interesting, unique, and wonderful.

Also, while Angela is articulate and insightful in some areas, she has a lot of maturing to do in other areas of her life. We are all like this. Angela is young and exploring new things for the first time (with a gorgeous guy no less) it takes time to realize things when you are in them, much longer than when you are on the outside as we the viewers are – the whole forest for the trees / when you are a fish the last thing you notice is the water, thing.
While rooted in her fantasies, Angela doesn’t want to imagine her life anymore. She makes it clear in the Pilot that Angela needs a change -- she needs things to actually happen so “at least [she’ll] knows [she’s] alive; she wants her gingerbread house to crumble so that she can wake up. That Jordan is inconsistent with her fantasy is not necessarily a deterrent.
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Post by Deleted item » Jan 5th 2004, 1:06 pm

but I really don’t think he considers, or has any reason to from Angela’s interactions with him, that she definitely does not want to have sex.
Then forgive me, he's the stupidest character in the history of television.The way she's trying to avoid the subject in the car "You actually expect me to choose a place?" and "I better go to geometry" ,later when he comes by her house and she's like" seriously, you have to go" and her annoyed tone "Right, the house". The way she's constantly nagging about the cops bursting in ...I think he knows that she doesn't wanna have sex, but he also knows that she's completely into him and how much she doesn't want to loose him, so he's hoping to manipulate her into having sex.

Deleted item

Post by Deleted item » Jan 5th 2004, 1:13 pm

Jordan says that sex is accepted not expected
Oops, sorry my bad. :oops:

Deleted item

Post by Deleted item » Jan 5th 2004, 1:33 pm

[quote="Jody Barsch*"
Jordan understands that sex is accepted by society; he has participated in it, as has his peers; he cares about Angela and is attracted to her; and because he is doing what she expects of him – not interrupting her (or at least apologizing for it), waiting for and working up to appropriate moments, holding her hand in the hall … he expects that she will meet him halfway. Another reason why Jordan is frustrated with Angela.[/quote]

When you put it that way,everything that is wrong between them is Angela's fault.Angela is the immature, she's being dishonest, she's leading him on.

while Jordan is rooted in the reality – in reality you have sex and may at times be hungry.
Yeah, I agree with that one.He is rooted in reality, because he was probably forced to grow up to soon-in reality your "old man knocks you around" also.

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Post by Jody Barsch* » Jan 6th 2004, 12:54 am

Deleted item wrote:Yeah, I agree with that one.He is rooted in reality, because he was probably forced to grow up to soon-in reality your "old man knocks you around" also.
Finally! Right? :D
Who would have thought we would find a common ground on anything? :wink:
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Re:

Post by Jody Barsch* » Nov 19th 2010, 4:27 am

Deleted item wrote:
Jody Barsch* wrote:Jordan understands that sex is accepted by society; he has participated in it, as has his peers; he cares about Angela and is attracted to her; and because he is doing what she expects of him – not interrupting her (or at least apologizing for it), waiting for and working up to appropriate moments, holding her hand in the hall … he expects that she will meet him halfway. Another reason why Jordan is frustrated with Angela.
When you put it that way,everything that is wrong between them is Angela's fault.Angela is the immature, she's being dishonest, she's leading him on.
Hm, I do feel like maybe in my defense of Jordan it comes off that I fault Angela for a lot of what happens throughout the series... I don't. But, maybe there's a part of me that cringes at Angela's less-than-cool moments because I can empathize with them (the beauty of the show).
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Re:

Post by beatriz_spain » Nov 19th 2010, 2:31 pm

Deleted item wrote:I never got the impression that Shane had anything against Angela.It's just that he didn't know her well because she didn't hang out with them and that's way he said that "she is that weird girl....""
I totally agree, but there is something that i have realized. When the Buffalo Tom's song starts and Katimski leaves, he passes Jordan halfway. Jordan is at his locker reading a sheet of paper, and when Shane arrives, he like folds and hides it, or whatever :D . Could it be the poem by Shakespeare? And could Jordan hide it so that Shane wouldn't know that he is taking a new interest in the classes? In this case, I think Jordan would definitely be influenced by Shane in many aspects.
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Re:

Post by beatriz_spain » Nov 19th 2010, 3:12 pm

Guest wrote:" I really can't figure out why is Angela so into him.It just doesn't seem realistic.I understand why she was obsessed with him before she even talked to him.She had her little ideal image of him in her head and she played it over and over again.But by now(end of the show) she should really know better.Jordan constantly acts inconsistently with her perfect fantasy that she created in her mind.So one should expect that Jordan's awful behaviour would encourage her to either "get over him" or to replace "the Jordan Catalano fantasy" with another obsession.
I think that, after 15 years, Jordan Catalano is one of the best remembered characters in this show, and not just because he is so hot. :D In my opinion, the fact that he doesn't conform to Angela's fantasies is rather positive, because it helps her to grow up and to be able to have a mature relationship (remember that Angela's dream was to marry a soldier saved by her in war). And I don't think that his behavious is awful, or, at least, it is so awful as every self-centered teenager's attitude towards life. Let's remember: Angela takes advantage of Brian's knowledge in geometry in "Self-steem", Rayanne, Angela and Rickie makes use of Brian (and his house) to plan a meeting between Angela and Jordan in "Dancing in the Dark", everybody uses everybody in "Life Of Brian" (Rickie asking Angela not to go with him to the dance so that Corey doesn't reach the wrong conclusion, Angela asking Brian to go with her to the dance so that she can get in, Brian ditching Delia when this happens)...In my opinion, the teenage character with higher moral standars in the show is Sharon (she is the most genereous and tolerant, except for the first chapters), but Jordan would be second. It is true that his behaviour is selfish in some occasions, but never plotted to reach his goals. He is handiccaped both intellectually and due to his family life but he is willing to change, as he states in "Resolutions" ("No, if, if I'm already signed up..."), and, for me, it is the most important thing.
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Re: Re:

Post by Jody Barsch* » Nov 19th 2010, 8:43 pm

beatriz_spain wrote:...there is something that i have realized. When the Buffalo Tom's song starts and Katimski leaves, he passes Jordan halfway. Jordan is at his locker reading a sheet of paper, and when Shane arrives, he like folds and hides it, or whatever :D . Could it be the poem by Shakespeare? And could Jordan hide it so that Shane wouldn't know that he is taking a new interest in the classes? In this case, I think Jordan would definitely be influenced by Shane in many aspects.
I've always assumed that it was a copy of the sonnet. I agree, I think he does totally put it away when his buddies approach. Jordan surprises himself when he speaks out in class, and in the hallway he's still musing over the self-discovery he's made. He hides the poem, but needs the final go ahead from Shane to make things 'real' (tie back to the discussion in English) with Angela.
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Re: Re:

Post by Jody Barsch* » Nov 19th 2010, 9:09 pm

beatriz_spain wrote:The fact that [Jordan] doesn't conform to Angela's fantasies is rather positive, because it helps her to grow up and to be able to have a mature relationship (remember that Angela's dream was to marry a soldier saved by her in war). And I don't think that his behavious is awful, or, at least, it is so awful as every self-centered teenager's attitude towards life. ... In my opinion, the teenage character with higher moral standars in the show is Sharon (she is the most genereous and tolerant, except for the first chapters), but Jordan would be second. It is true that his behaviour is selfish in some occasions, but never plotted to reach his goals. He is handiccaped both intellectually and due to his family life) but he is willing to change, as he states in "Resolutions" ("No, if, if I'm already signed up..."), and, for me, it is the most important thing.
Well put Beatriz; I think you're totally right about the reality thing, and about Sharon being tolerant. I never would have put it like that, particularly since I so love her saying "Hello! What was that about?... I pity you." as well as all the faces she makes at Jordan in "In Dreams", but I think I see what you're saying. Also, the distinction you've made is a key one -- of all the things Jordan does in the show, none of them are vindictive (which isn't always enough -- we are responsible for our actions whether we realize the effects or not, though Jordan does apologize [for suggesting they sleep together anyway, for interrupting her, for sleeping with her friend]).
But, now that I think about it ... Jordan does do some things knowingly -- I was going to start by mentioning what he does outside the World Happiness Dance, and then also, obviously, ignoring her at Pyke Street. Is there a discernible difference between knowing in the moment your'e being a jerk, and planning on being a jerk? ...
A key component of the show is people going about their lives the only way they know how, only to realize in the middle of things (or after the fact) that their choices were ill-advided, foolish, self-serving, careless, etc. MSCL highlights so well that no matter how self-aware we think we are (voice overs and all) we don't always see ourselves. (Am I 1. off base on this? 2. Totally off topic from where this post started? It's been a loooong week,)
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Re: Question about Shane and Jordan in Self-Esteem

Post by Bacchante » Nov 19th 2010, 11:56 pm

Wow, so much activity here today :)

So to make this even more potentially off-topic:

1. I never got the "she is real" thing. I don't think he likes her cause she's real-- I think he likes her cause she's quirky and self-aware and smart and because he feels like maybe she understands him. If "real" means she "has content" (as opposed to this other girl he used to sleep with), then I agree, but if not, then I'm a little confused, perhaps someone could clarify / convince me.

2. What he did at Pike Street was pretty bad, but I never saw what he did outside the dance as that evil. I loved it cause it was such an intense scene, and the next thing we saw was them making out. Sure, he wasn't being very kind to her, but it's not his style to be kind (not in an obvious way anyway). And I don't think he hurt/offended her, he just confused/frustrated her.
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Re: Question about Shane and Jordan in Self-Esteem

Post by beatriz_spain » Nov 21st 2010, 12:12 pm

1. I never got the "she is real" thing. I don't think he likes her cause she's real-- I think he likes her cause she's quirky and self-aware and smart and because he feels like maybe she understands him. If "real" means she "has content" (as opposed to this other girl he used to sleep with), then I agree, but if not, then I'm a little confused, perhaps someone could clarify / convince me.
I can't convince you, because I agree with you. In my opinion, it is a pity that Angela was not in the classroom to listen what was said, because for me it is her the one who has problems to see Jordan as a real boy/man, and not an idealization of the perfect one. If she is able to understand that he has got flaws, she will accept that in the world of real relationships there exists the possibility that you and the man you love have a different timing when it comes to the first time, that he could prefer cold cuts rather than kissing you :D or that maybe he composes songs thinking of his car and not of you, or that he is not able to write (or read) a love letter. With that I am not saying that she should have sex with him, of course she does the right thing in my opinion. My point is that to face this kind of problems is positive for a couple, because it allows its members to use dialogue, and to know whether they are tolerant and willing to reach an agreement. Jordan, with all his limitations, is more mature regarding this point: he is willing to wait for sex, for instance. He doesn't state it clearly, but he continues having a friendship (love relationship, in my opinion) with her, and in the hilarious library scene in chapter 16, he makes clear he is still waiting, but he is patient. On the other hand, Angela's view of Jordan changes when she knows that he hasn't written the letter, because it doesn't correspond to the romantic image she had in her mind. At the same time, her view of Brian changes too, because he DOES conform to this image. In other example, she admits that things with Rayanne have never been the same again since she had her stomach pumped. It is like, she is not cool anymore. She wants her friends to be different from other kids, but not so much as to disrupt her perfect middle-class life. When reality comes with all its force, she feels fear. I think she must learn to face this fact if she wants to have successful, healthy relationships.
Last edited by beatriz_spain on Nov 21st 2010, 1:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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