the contradiction that we call Jordan

General discussion about the nineteen episodes of "My So-Called Life". Note: Our episode guide can be found here.
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Natasha (candygirl)
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Post by Natasha (candygirl) » Aug 4th 2003, 1:30 pm

I agree - Jordan is not stupid. He may not be book smart (due to his learning disability or his general insouciance about school), but to say that he is stupid because of that is about as fair as saying that Angela is stupid for assuming she had a relationship with him waaaaay before it ever happened or for following Rayanne around like a sheep (to paraphrase Sharon) or dumping her best friend for no reason. People do things that they aren't always proud of and sometimes can't explain, things that hurt other people or don't seem like the best choice to someone else - but judging someone (a fictional character, no less) based upon your personal values isn't really fair.

Let's put it this way - Jordan can fix his own car (as we see in Pressure) and Angela can't. Does that make Angela stupid? No, it just means that Jordan can do something that Angela can't, for whatever reason - maybe she has no interest in mechanical things or maybe she is just mechanically inept. In any case, it doesn't make her better or worse than Jordan. He knows where to get fake IDs and Angela doesn't. Angela gets better grades and knows how to spell better. Does that make her smarter? According to educational guidelines, yes, but in real life, not really.
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Post by Guest » Aug 10th 2003, 2:23 pm

candygirl wrote:. He may not be book smart (due to his learning disability or his general insouciance about school), but to say that he is stupid because of that is about as fair as saying that Angela is stupid for assuming she had a relationship with him waaaaay before it ever happened or for following Rayanne around like a sheep (to paraphrase Sharon) or dumping her best friend for no reason.
That's called naivete or inexperience not stupidity.

Let's put it this way - Jordan can fix his own car (as we see in Pressure) and Angela can't. Does that make Angela stupid? No, it just means that Jordan can do something that Angela can't, for whatever reason - maybe she has no interest in mechanical things or maybe she is just mechanically inept. In any case, it doesn't make her better or worse than Jordan. He knows where to get fake IDs and Angela doesn't. Angela gets better grades and knows how to spell better. Does that make her smarter? According to educational guidelines, yes, but in real life, not really.
Oh,whatever.So he knows how to fix his car and Angela doesn't.I'm not talking about that.I'm sure there are tons of real,practical stuff that Angela knows how to do and Jordan doesn't.Let's not get into that stuff.
Oh,for God's sake that guy thinks that people can turn into insects.Okay maybe I was a bit harsh when I said stupid, he's kinda dumb.How's that sound? :P

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grim4746
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Post by grim4746 » Aug 10th 2003, 3:08 pm

I agree Jordan is sort of dumb. He's not an absolute idiot but he's more than likely below average intelligence (understating?). He is capable of learning but his laziness and personal problems (I'm theorizing about this part) keep him from bothering most of the time. He does have his abilities like auto repair but lacks basic common sense in other areas such as that people don't turn into insects and that when you treat someone who has romantic feelings for you like crap and sleep with their best friend they will be hurt. The type of dumb that Jordan is has been best displayed on the tv show "Street Smarts" hopefully some of you have seen this show and know what I mean.

Clockwork orange

Post by Clockwork orange » Aug 11th 2003, 1:31 pm

For those of you who think Jordan is sort of dumb,I agree ( but who am I to talk,you know?) :)

So,that whole Jordan slept with Rayanne thing.It's not that I'm trying to excuse him because what he did was really low but Angela is also not all that innocent in that whole thing.She did put on quite a show for him earlier that day with Corey.It's pretty obvious that she deliberately tried to make him jealous.I know that's no excuse,but people always say that Angela would never hurt Jordan or whatever,but he looked pretty hurt to me.I mean, okay she thought she was over Jordan,she wanted to move on,but she didn't have to rub it to his face.And her little fling with Corey showed only one thing:she is nowhere near of being over Jordan Catalano. :roll:

clockwork orange

Post by clockwork orange » Aug 14th 2003, 1:59 pm

I dunno the exact words but in Betrayal he says something like "sometimes I think I know her but I don't" (something like that anyways :roll: ) and I have to say I didn't quite get that.(at all actually :oops: )I'll have to rewatch that ep.Those of you who have decyphered his meaning,please fell free to dispense some perls of wisdom. :D

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Post by The Talented Krakow » Aug 14th 2003, 8:03 pm

Hard to say wether Jordan is smart or dumb. Like in the last episode, he asks "what's ironic?". Then I thought "oh my god, dumbass!", but later on he used the word correctly in a sentence, which requires at least some intelligence to do.

Actually I don't really think smart and dumb people excist. Okay, maybe they do (like Claire Danes' character in U-Turn or Brian), but I don't think people that seem stupid are necessarily dumb or low on intelligence. I mean, I myself are so-called smart, I have the highest form of high school education you can get here - oh what are my parents proud -, but I really don't think I'm smart. I might have brains, but I can say such stupid things! Another example: a girl in my class seems to be so incredibly smart that she skipped two years at high school. But she's also the girl from who three sentences are all in my top 3 list of the stupidest things I've ever heard. So from one side she's damn smart, but from the other side she can say the dumbest things you can imagine. So when is somebody smart?

I think what somebody actually sais in public or to other people does not at all reflect the intelligence of that person. Jordan for instance said and did some stupid things. Why? Probably not because he wás stupid, but because he didn't know what else to do. Or because he never learnt it. Because of his shy-ness, from which it's highly probable that it is caused by the way his father was, and therefore also the way he was raised. Or perhaps other things that happened in his past.

On the other side: when you seem to be intelligent, it doesn't mean that you're also that smart when it comes to other things then education. Maybe at social events your brains abandon you, and your feelings take over the control of your actions. Or maybe your brains create feelings which makes social behaviour difficult. Damn, I think I'm a little lost now..
"My parents keep asking how school was. It's like saying, 'How was that drive-by shooting?' You don't care how it _was_, you're lucky to get out alive."

Deleted item

Jordan question

Post by Deleted item » Sep 7th 2003, 1:55 pm

Question.That night when they get drunk,why is Jordan talking to Rayanne about Angela?He doesn't seem to me as the kind of person who would share like that.And why does he ask Rayanne who is she here with(meaning were is Angela?)?Since when does he care where she is?Does he want to see her?Or what?

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DarkApprentice

Post by DarkApprentice » Sep 8th 2003, 5:07 am

Deleted item, yes I do think he wanted to see Angela and it's not the first time Jordan has shown up at some place primarily to see her. In "Life of Brian", I think he attended (at least for a few mins) the World Happiness Dance in order to see Angela (he probably had a hunch she was going to be there, even though she told him earlier she wouldn't).

Angela makes Jordan feel something, but he has difficulty coming to terms with his feelings. It is probably a totally new experience for him, being emotionally bound to someone. On the inside of his cool and seemingly shallow exterior, I believe there is a growing spark for Angela.
"He wants you to work on his apparatus!"

Deleted item

Re: DarkApprentice

Post by Deleted item » Sep 8th 2003, 2:00 pm

[
quote="DarkApprentice"]Deleted item, yes I do think he wanted to see Angela and it's not the first time Jordan has shown up at some place primarily to see her. In "Life of Brian", I think he attended (at least for a few mins) the World Happiness Dance in order to see Angela (he probably had a hunch she was going to be there, even though she told him earlier she wouldn't).

Angela makes Jordan feel something, but he has difficulty coming to terms with his feelings. It is probably a totally new experience for him, being emotionally bound to someone. On the inside of his cool and seemingly shallow exterior, I believe there is a growing spark for Angela.[/quote
Yeah,and when Rayanne tells him that "Angela didn't come and it's like usual" he makes this face and "closes his eyes like it hurts to look at things".What did he think?That she's with that wierd guy with painted snickers(I think his name is Cory or something like that anyway)

vladimir

Post by vladimir » Sep 16th 2003, 7:10 pm

Hello, I'll try to say it in English...(i'm french).
I think there is different sort of intelligences... the Cultural intelligence: that allows you to learn, understand things, to be a good student, to accumulate knowledge, etc... there is also the "intelligence of life" (i don't know how to say it in english): which means that you're curious about life, about other people, that you try to listen to them and understand them not for power or for anything esle, but for evently help or mostly for trying to understand yourself, the world, life...
for exemple one of my best friend was a very poor student, but when you speak with him about every else he is very smart, talented to listen, understand, explain.
An other exemple is Brian in a way he is smart, the stéréotype of the best student... but he is also very selfish, he daesn't learn from his pain, see what he daes with Délia, in the same episode in this discusion with Angela (she wanted to go with them at he party) he daesn't listen to her , he understand only what he want's to understand... in fact he is not helpless because sometimes he tries, he asks questions...may be he is to young and alone.
FOR JORDAN...the subject here... he is not good at school, may be he daesn't try...and even worst : he is not trying to understand anybody, he is not even thinking about trying to listen at anybody...he is in his world. In the "Self-Esteem " episode he daesn't try to understand what the problem is with Angela, or why she is hurt ? he only heard to a poem and realize that he likes her more than what he thouth...he daesn't what to lose her so he daes what she wanted to, to take her back ! that's all...
By the way, he is a very attracting character because he is facinating. He is free, or he seems to be free, living on an other planet where the autority or the others have no parts, he daes what he want's and when your teenager it's so facinating.
Beside this show his speaking about teenager, they are growing up. At that age you are openning to the world (don't think this is english, but...),
and learning by your mistakes, your pain or joy : the famous Angela's phrase:
" And admit the truth.
That when you really look closely, people are so strange and so
complicated that they're actually...beautiful. Possibly even me."
In these épisodes Jordan is lost but may be he will learn, or begun the journey to try to understand... that's what we are doing with this show, is'nt it ?
It help us to understand our feelings, at an age which they are very strongs...sometimes feelings that we thought we were the only to know!
What's why I love this show, it's give hope, and sometimes helps to make it up with life (We are not alone!).

That's it, again sorry for the poor English, I tried.

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Post by igor » Sep 20th 2003, 1:39 pm

He likes Angela.That means that he's smart enough to recognize her true value.And I think that's gotta count for something,don't you? :D

CHIVAS

He is not as mean as many think he is...

Post by CHIVAS » Sep 22nd 2003, 11:44 pm

He is a complicated character...He starts out being this lost soul that is just there and that looks to the sky hoping to find the answers, friendships, feelings, etc. he has been looking for and has not found. THen Angela enters his life, he is afraid of what she wants with him because being attractive and all he feels she is just into him for his looks...thus feels that he must have sex with her like all other girls he has went out with.

But later when Angela shows her concern, persistance, attention, he still wants to have sex with her but this time he wants to see the comet (like Rickie described in Pressure), or at least think he does. This is like the first girl (possibly person) who has demostraited to him that there is more to him than the exterior...that he has a soul- that most impotantly she relized he needed to be rescued. Thus I don't think that he slept with Rayanne to have someone to do it with or even to get back at Angela for being with Cory...If we look back he seems to be in a state of confusion where he imagins Rayanne to be Angela. THey both talk about her in Betrayal and she begins to copy her facial expressions, the things she says that Jordan finds so meaningful and incapable of communicating with her in the same way- he feels that he has lost her and the only things left is this imitation of her. He is a very lonley guy that although surrounded by his friends constantly, they are not able to see him or treat him in any other way, something that Angela does.

One of the most toughing moments is when he is alone on Christams Eve and he lights that candle...he truly is a mystery but not an evil guy that hurt Angela repededly on purpose. THis scene is just like him, he is quite because he is not good with words, but this in turn says so much about him...like that he has a flam burning inside him...like that there is some hope that he awaits for.
He is terribly hungry all the time, something that he is able to fill at Angela's house and only with Angela.

Well my simple opinion...

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Post by igor » Sep 23rd 2003, 12:30 pm

He is a very lonley guy that although surrounded by his friends constantly, they are not able to see him or treat him in any other way, something that Angela does.
Yes,I definately agree that he is extremely lonely bloke.He kind of admitts in the "Zit" episode when he's talking to Brian about "Metamorphosis":

Jordan : Oh. So, so he never, like, uh, turns back.
Brian : Nope, and they, um, they turn on him.
Rickie : But why?
Brian : 'Cause, he's a giant cockroach. And they, like, they can't handle
it. They're, like, repulsed, so...they, um, abuse him, they, they
they starve him, but what it seems like when you're reading it, is
that, um, he dies from loneliness.
Jordan : Seems possible.

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Re: He is not as mean as many think he is...

Post by grim4746 » Oct 2nd 2003, 12:35 am

Chivas you've changed my mind about Jordan (again). Well I also just watched the entire series because I finally bought my own box set. I'd never seen resolutions before and though I'd read the script, seeing it has changed how I think about a lot of aspects of the show. For now I'll stick to Jordan. I think Chivas is right that Jordan is
CHIVAS wrote: truly is a mystery but not an evil guy that hurt Angela repededly on purpose.
I just find it easier most of the time to write Jordan off as a dumb ass jerk then to admit that somone can cause pain repeatedly and still be the good guy.

Guest

Post by Guest » Oct 19th 2003, 9:41 am

Throughout the show Rayanne was charactarized as an "alcoholic",as someone who's high most of the time.But what about Jordan?We know that he smokes,but exactly how friendly is he with the bottle and other supstances? :?:

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