Buffy the Vampire Slayer

MSCL may be gone from the tv screen, but there are lots of good (and bad) new productions airing each week. Talk with other MSCL fans about your favorite shows or the shows you hate. Of course you can also discuss TV show DVD releases here.
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Natasha (candygirl)
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Post by Natasha (candygirl) » Dec 10th 2002, 12:12 am

Ooh, update!! The next Buffy episode airs December 17. For some reason (unbeknownst to me), they moved episode 10's airdate to December 17 and now episode 11 will air on January 7.

Early Christmas present from Joss?

:D
Natasha aka candygirl :: MSCL.com

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Post by JPP13 » Dec 10th 2002, 12:13 am

OOps, sorry. Didn't see this. Ill copy my post here.

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Post by JPP13 » Dec 10th 2002, 12:14 am

Anyway, about the Xander thing. I think it would be fitting for him to kill Spike. First of all, and this was a glaring plot hole IMO, there is no way that Xander agrees to live with Spike, given that he's slept with the girl he loves, tried to rape her,and then slept with his fiance. I didnt buy that for a second.

I really think that Joss would have killed off Spike earlier, but he's turned into quite the fan favorite. And thye are running out of male characters as it is.

The Spike with a Soul is just not working for me. I think it interferes with an otherwise strong season. Face it, no matter what spin is put on it, will never be as compelling as Angel was initally, and will always feel like a re-tread.

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Post by Natasha (candygirl) » Dec 10th 2002, 12:15 am

Your first adventure outside the DVD forum - was it good for you?

I did try to be gentle.

:wink:
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Look, if this is weird for you, being tutored? I don't mind helping you a little longer.
You could have sex with me if you really want to help...I guess that's a "no"?

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Post by Natasha (candygirl) » Dec 10th 2002, 12:23 am

One of the things I dislike about this season is how people like Xander and Dawn make comments like, "He tried to rape you," as if Buffy is so dim-witted that she could possibly forget that incident.

Maybe it's supposed to be the soap opera equivalent of telling the audience what happened just in case they missed it, but I interpret it as very pompous on the part of the characters who utter these things.
Natasha aka candygirl :: MSCL.com

Look, if this is weird for you, being tutored? I don't mind helping you a little longer.
You could have sex with me if you really want to help...I guess that's a "no"?

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Post by JPP13 » Dec 10th 2002, 12:27 am

Aargh, Im such an idiot sometimes. I just now noticed your question to me on the previous page. lol

I disagree about Xander, well at least 'ab initio'. He was always a strong character in my mind, yet they havent used him properly of late. I hated the ending last year, just felt rushed and tacked on.

He is the only one without any particular strength or power, and that provides a connection to the audience, I believe. The fact that Xander has not dealt with the First evil or an incarnation yet tells me soemthing - I think he will factor prominently.

I thought the Xander/Willow/Buffy triangle was very compelling, but we have drifted away from that. I always liked the idea of Xander with Willow, but I think the PC police would nix that idea pronto. No way they kill off Tara and then have Willow 'revert'.

I also like the idea of the series ending on a happy note, with Buffy and Xander together. I think that has been foreshadowed several times in the past 2 seasons. And Xander killing Spike, and perhaps never telling Buffy, seems fitting. Though, it just isnt Joss' style to end things happily.

This is all rather disjointed, I know, but I can talk about Buffy all day, and such an open question lends itself to such meandering.

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Post by JPP13 » Dec 10th 2002, 12:34 am

Regarding what you said about the seemingly endless reminders of earlier developments, it is a waste of time. Face it, we are in year 7. There are NO NEW FANS! We all know what was "previously on Buffy...". Even if there are some new stragglers, they will be so lost regardless it wouldn't matter.

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Post by Natasha (candygirl) » Dec 10th 2002, 1:09 am

I totally agree - and interestingly, this year's weekly "previously" reminders are longer than ever. Do they think there are any new viewers who are totally clueless? Uhhh, no.

I think Xander was a strong character earlier and hasn't been developed or even shown very much lately. I mean, besides leaving Anya at the altar, whining about it, and then giving the yellow crayon speech, what the heck did he do last season? I'm not saying it's his fault since they were dealing a lot with Buffy's return from the grave, but I have been annoyed with his character lately because he is either not around or around but extraneous.

That might be a generalization about many of the characters though! Even Buffy was bugging the crap outta me last season. And don't get me started on Dawn (although she has been much more tolerable this year). Your "Spike as fan fave" assessment is correct though - much of this season thus far has centered on what has happened to him and what it means. Interesting since Joss so seldom gives us what we want. It must be his way of lulling us into a false sense of security (lots of Spikey goodness) and then BAM!
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Look, if this is weird for you, being tutored? I don't mind helping you a little longer.
You could have sex with me if you really want to help...I guess that's a "no"?

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Post by lance » Dec 10th 2002, 2:42 pm

Candygirl,

You beat me to the punch, or post. I heard yesterday afternoon about next weeks Buffy. Pretty cool, huh?

I actually like Spike with Buffy. This is because of my liking the whole redemption thing. Spike and Buffy have both done things that they regret. They both have suffered for it. Spike as a character has always been interesting for me.

Xander, ugh! Remember in 3rd Season when Angel was pretending he was bad? He was walking down the street with Faith and Xander comes running down the street yelling at Angel. Angel punches him saying something like, "That guy always annoyed me." Xander is annoying and whiny. Whiny in itself is not bad, but can be over done, a lot! The past two seasons he has just been whiny. He left Anya at the alter, that was simply stunning. I also understand insecurity but to leave someone at the alter (even in a fictional setting) is just wrong :evil:

Anywho, looking forward to next weeks episode.

Lance Man

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Post by Natasha (candygirl) » Dec 10th 2002, 3:58 pm

I was never a huge fan of Xander and Anya being together, but when he left her at the altar, it had such a jumping the shark feel to it. I mean, how cliche is it to have a pre-wedding nerves episode?

Xander didn't just leave Anya at the altar - he walked out without telling anybody. I mean, that is the most cowardly way to do something that is already cowardly to begin with. For him to come back and realize he made a huge mistake, I mean HELLO CHARLIE ON PARTY OF FIVE! How can they expect to be forgiven? And then to whine about how he's sorry - that really didn't elicit much sympathy from me.

Maybe this is because I have not been married yet, but I don't understand how you could say you want to spend the rest of your life with someone and agree to do it and then start panicking five minutes before you're supposed to go through with it. It's been done on numerous shows and there's usually some serious reason behind it ("We're going to be the Bings"), but arggh! Then again, my philosophy is wait until you know for sure.

I know there are married people on the board (including Lance who brought this up), so please help me out here. Tell me honestly - did you freak out moments before you did the deed?
Natasha aka candygirl :: MSCL.com

Look, if this is weird for you, being tutored? I don't mind helping you a little longer.
You could have sex with me if you really want to help...I guess that's a "no"?

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Post by JPP13 » Dec 10th 2002, 4:10 pm

Personally, I never cared for Anya period. Originally, she was signed to do 1 episode and perhaps 1 more. Shes turned into what we have today - a directionless plot device.

As far as Xander leaving her, I thought it fit in logically with the progression of the characters. I just hope shes the next peripheral character killed off.

Something that has always bugged me is the amount of women who like Spike, or like Spike with Buffy. Just a brief recount (off the top of my head): he's killed 2 previous slayers. He tried to kill Buffy's mom. His then girlfriend killed another slayer. He tried to kill Buffy's boyfriend. He left Buffy to die at the hands of Angel. etc etc. As Buffy's "interest", he was violent and debasing, even at a time he purported to "love" her. Yet a certain percentage of women act as if he cured cancer. Spike is the poster child for every abusive relationship/ domestic violence I've ever seen. He should eb ahted and his death hoped and cheered for.

One last note - I never bought the whole Buffy/Spike thing but for her "adjusting" with life after death. That whole theme has made me want to forget last season.

Bonus post :)

JPP13 ranks the Buffy seasons.
2,5,3,1,4,6. Inconclusive on 7, but I'm thinking at this point its setting up to be better than 4 but not as good as 3.

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Post by Natasha (candygirl) » Dec 10th 2002, 4:32 pm

Season 4 - the beginning of the Riley Era AKA ugh!

I think the appeal behind Spuffy is that Spike was always an interesting character similar to Buffy in that he might be there to kill you or torture you, but he'll have something snarky to say first.

People were behind this ship from as early as season 2, if for no other reason than they liked Spike's attitude (or didn't like Angel) but Joss understood that sometimes two positives (liking Buffy and liking Spike) equal a negative so he held off for a long time, teasing the Spuffy shippers with Something Blue.

When Spike initially realized he had a thing for Buffy (and woke up from that dream), I thought ewwwwww! For most of season 5, it was alternately funny ("Out. For. A. Walk...Bitch.) and annoying (although I must say it was somewhat amusing in a cathartic sense similar to the early episodes of MSCL to watch him want her and her obvious disgust - I mean, who hasn't been on the other side of a crush before? where someone likes you and you think "NO WAY!").

I started rooting for Spike when he went from gross obsession (the Buffy Bot) to refusing to tell Glory about Dawn. I know that suffering isn't exactly the healthiest characteristic in a relationship, but the fact that he was willing to protect Dawn for Buffy's sake showed that there was something more to Spike besides a neutered killer. True, he had a selfish motivation but he still did the right thing.

In addition, as evil as Spike was before his redemption began, he was very loyal and devoted to Dru.

As far as Spuffy being the poster child for abusive relationships, I think Buffy was more in the wrong. She used him, knowing how he felt about her. She was very abusive in every sense of the word - verbally, emotionally, physically. She beat the crap out of him on more than one occasion, never hesitating to slug him. She loved to humiliate him and tell him that he was worthless. Really helped the "inferiority complex about the superiority complex" analysis ring true.

Spike's psychotic murderous behavior occurred when he didn't have a soul. When Angel didn't have a soul, he tried to kill Buffy, he tortured Giles, and he killed Jenny - yet she forgave him and continues to profess her love for him (usually in more "subtle plot reminders" like, "I KILLED ANGEL! Do you even remember that? I would have given up everything I had to be with— I loved him more than I will ever love anything in this life."). If she can forgive Angel, she can forgive anyone.
Natasha aka candygirl :: MSCL.com

Look, if this is weird for you, being tutored? I don't mind helping you a little longer.
You could have sex with me if you really want to help...I guess that's a "no"?

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Post by JPP13 » Dec 10th 2002, 4:47 pm

To me the thing that is different about Angel is that Buffy met Angel as he was trying to assist her. She knew him to be a caring albeit mysterious individual. She later found out who he was, but only knew him (at that point) as Angel, not Angelus.

Later on, she tried to kill him within say 2 months of him losing his soul.

With Spike, she knew him initially and directly as a killer. Her relationship "blossomed" so to speak while he was still a souless demon.

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Post by Natasha (candygirl) » Dec 10th 2002, 4:59 pm

That's what makes it so interesting though - we all struggle with our inner demons and Spike's just happens to be named "soulless vampire." The fact that he didn't have a soul when he began to change speaks volumes because he had to fight all the demonic urges to be evil. Spike can't hurt humans, true, but he made a conscious choice to protect Dawn and be a better man. Of course it would be better if he just wanted to be a good person, but I don't think it's any different from people who learn to cook or dress better to attract someone - whatever the motivation, there is an impetus for change.

And did I mention I love that a tv show inspires so much discussion?

:D
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Look, if this is weird for you, being tutored? I don't mind helping you a little longer.
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Post by Denie » Dec 10th 2002, 7:10 pm

JPP13 wrote: The Spike with a Soul is just not working for me. I think it interferes with an otherwise strong season. Face it, no matter what spin is put on it, will never be as compelling as Angel was initally, and will always feel like a re-tread.
I'm inclined to agree with you, but I am trying very hard to give Joss the benefit of the doubt. We're not yet half way through the season, so surely the great and all-knowing Joss Whedon has a better plan for Spike than to make his character a repeat of Angel's.

--Potential Spoilers Below. Highlight to read.--


I am very curious to see what Faith brings to the mix when she returns for a few episodes. Will jail time have helped her to see the error of her ways? Is she now friend or foe of Buffy & the scooby gang? I love how conflicted Faith was, whereas Buffy always walked the path of the rightous. AICN is reporting that Faith is killed by the end of the season though. :(
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