Portrait of a Winner

Political Discussion: You've been warned! Please remember we are all friends here. Insults will not be tolerated!
guitarchick
Overlooked Sibling
Posts: 36
Joined: Apr 2nd 2003, 9:42 pm
Location: Montreal, QC
Contact:

Portrait of a Winner

Post by guitarchick » Nov 25th 2003, 5:46 pm

I got this in a forwarded email and I thought it was pretty interesting.
Emilie


RESUME

George W. Bush
The White House, USA

EDUCATION AND EXPERIENCE

LAW ENFORCEMENT: I was arrested in Kennebunkport, Maine in 1976 for driving
under the influence of alcohol. I pled guilty, paid a fine, and had my
driver's license suspended for 30 days. My Texas driving record has been
"lost" and is not available.

MILITARY: I joined the Texas Air National Guard and went AWOL. I refused to
take a drug test or answer any questions about my drug use. By joining the
Texas Air National Guard, I was able to avoid combat duty in Vietnam.

COLLEGE: I graduated from Yale University. I was a cheerleader.

PAST WORK EXPERIENCE:

I ran for U.S. Congress and lost.

I began my career in the oil business in Midland, Texas in 1975. I bought
an oil company, but couldn't find any oil in Texas. The company went
bankrupt shortly after I sold all my stock.

I bought the Texas Rangers baseball team in a sweetheart deal that took
land using taxpayer money, and then I traded away Sammy Sosa.

With the help of my father and our right-wing friends in the oil industry
(including Enron CEO Ken Lay), I was elected Governor of Texas.

ACCOMPLISHMENTS AS GOVERNOR:

I changed Texas pollution laws to favor power and oil companies, making
Texas the most polluted state in the Union.

During my tenure, Houston replaced Los Angeles as the most smog-ridden city
in America.

I cut taxes and bankrupted the Texas treasury to the tune of billions in
borrowed money.

I set the record for the most executions by any Governor in American
history.

With the help of my brother, the Governor of Florida, and my father's
appointments to the Supreme Court, I became President after losing by over
500,000 votes.

ACCOMPLISHMENTS AS PRESIDENT:

I invaded and occupied two countries at a continuing cost of over one
billion dollars per week.

I spent the U.S. surplus and effectively bankrupted the U.S. Treasury.

I shattered the record for the largest annual deficit in U.S. history.

I set an economic record for most private bankruptcies filed in any
12-month period.

I set the all-time record for the biggest drop in the history of the U.S.
stock market.

I am the first president in U.S. history to enter office with a criminal
record.

I set the all-time record for most days on vacation in any one year period.

After taking-off the entire month of August, I presided over the worst
security failure in U.S. history.

I am supporting development of a nuclear "Tactical Bunker Buster," a WMD.

In my State Of The Union Address, I lied about our reasons for attacking
Iraq, then blamed the lies on our British friends.

I set the record for most campaign fund-raising trips by a U.S. president.

In my first year in office over 2-million Americans lost their jobs and
that trend continues every month.

I set the all-time record for most foreclosures in a 12-month period.

I appointed more convicted criminals to administration than any president
in U.S. history.

I set the record for least amount of press conferences than any president
since the advent of television.

I presided over the biggest energy crisis in U.S. history and refused to
intervene when corruption involving the oil industry was revealed.

I presided over the highest gasoline prices in U.S. history.

I have cut health care benefits for war veterans and support a cut in duty
benefits for active duty troops and their families -- in war time.

I have set the all-time record for most people worldwide to simultaneously
protest me in public venues (15 million people) shattering the record for
protest against any person in the history of mankind.

I've broken more international treaties than any president in U.S. history.

I'm proud that the members of my cabinet are the richest of any
administration in U.S. history. My "poorest millionaire," Condoleeza Rice,
has a Chevron oil tanker named after her.

I am the first president in U.S. history to order an unprovoked,
pre-emptive attack and the military occupation of a sovereign nation. I did
so against the will of the United Nations, the majority of U.S. citizens,
and the world community.

I created the Ministry of Homeland Security, the largest bureaucracy in the
history of the United States government.

I am the first president in U.S. history to have the United Nations remove
the U.S. from the Human Rights Commission.

I withdrew the U.S. from the World Court of Law.

I refused to allow inspectors access to U.S. prisoners of war" detainees)
and thereby have refused to abide by the Geneva Convention.

I am the first president in history to refuse United Nations election
inspectors (during the 2002 U.S. election).

I am the all-time U.S. and world record-holder for receiving the most
corporate campaign donations.

My largest lifetime campaign contributor, and one of my best friends,
Kenneth Lay, presided over the largest corporate bankruptcy fraud in U.S.
history. My political party used the Enron private jets and corporate
attorneys to assure my success with the U.S. Supreme Court during my
election decision. I have protected my friends at Enron and Halliburton
against investigation or prosecution. More time and money was spent
investigating the Monica Lewinsky affair than has been spent investigating
one of the biggest corporate ripoffs in history.

I garnered the most sympathy for the U.S. after the World Trade Center
attacks and less than a year later made the U.S. the most hated country in
the world according to worldwide Gallup polls, the largest failure of
diplomacy in world history.

I am first president in history to have a majority of Europeans (71%) view
my presidency as the biggest threat to world peace and security.

I changed the U.S. policy to allow convicted criminals to be awarded
government contracts.

I have so far failed to fulfill my pledge to bring Osama Bin Laden and
Saddam Hussein to justice.

RECORDS AND REFERENCES:

All records of my tenure as Governor of Texas are now in my father's
library, sealed, and unavailable for public view.

All records of SEC investigations into my insider trading and my bankrupt
companies are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view.

All records or minutes from meetings that I, or my Vice-President, attended
regarding public energy policy are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for
public review.

Please consider my experience when voting in 2004 -

User avatar
fnordboy
Ed Zwick Wannabe
Posts: 1954
Joined: Sep 25th 2002, 10:29 am
Location: Exit 16E, NJ
Contact:

Post by fnordboy » Nov 25th 2003, 6:21 pm

I think the above may be from a Michael Moore book, his last on (not the latest). The name escapes me at the moment.

User avatar
mglenn
MSCL.com Team
MSCL.com Team
Posts: 552
Joined: May 25th 1999, 4:46 pm
Location: Butler, PA ( AKA: Three Rivers, PA )
Contact:

Post by mglenn » Nov 26th 2003, 9:46 am

With the help of my brother, the Governor of Florida, and my father's appointments to the Supreme Court, I became President after losing by over 500,000 votes.
Please give this a rest and stop believe a known lier like Moore. The Supreme Court in a 5 to 4, non party line, decision on December 12, reversed the Florida Supreme Court order holding that the Florida Supreme Court improperly established new standards for resolving Presidential election contests, thereby violating Article II, section 1, clause 2 of the U.S. Constitution, and that its order directing manual recounts without specific standards on how to review the ballots violated the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment.

Basicly they said Florida supreme court tried to change the rules in the middle of the game. The Supreme Court said that you have to obey your own laws that you have on the books. They also said that if you can't tell by looking then the "voters intent" is can not be determined i.e. no pregnant chads or saying that a vote for someone else must have been a vote for Gore.

Secondly Bush did not lose by 500,000 votes he won by 5 electorial votes. This is more of Moore's and the rest of the lefts sorry attempt to pull the wool over the eyes of the undereducated masses. We do not live in a democracy, we live in a representative republic. Once you understand that and what it means you can move on to more advance topics, like the fact that there is not seperation of church and state mentioned in the constitution and other fun "facts" the left likes to try to gloss over.
I spent the U.S. surplus and effectively bankrupted the U.S. Treasury.
Oh you mean the "projected surplus" don't you? Cause there was no surplus.
I shattered the record for the largest annual deficit in U.S. history.
Because history is loaded with leaders that had there military headquarters and financial center destroyed in the same day and had to rebuild them and did it without rasing their national dept.
I set an economic record for most private bankruptcies filed in any
12-month period.
Yup he personally went out and put the businesses out of business. Stopping all airtraffic, finanical trading and losses in the trillions had nothing to do with that at all.
I set the all-time record for the biggest drop in the history of the U.S. stock market.
And let me tell you that waiting in those bread lines like my grandparents did is tough.
I am the first president in U.S. history to enter office with a criminal record.
As opposed to the first US president to be disbarred? Or the having the highest number of murdered associates? Or the highest number of incarserated associates?
I set the record for most campaign fund-raising trips by a U.S. president.


Just like every president before me!
In my first year in office over 2-million Americans lost their jobs and that trend continues every month.


Bzzzzt! Wrong.. Jobless rates have turned around.
I presided over the highest gasoline prices in U.S. history.
This one is just a flat out lie. The 70's gas crises was far worse when you adjust the prices for inflation.
I've broken more international treaties than any president in U.S. history.
Footnote in orginal draft: should preface this with the fact that he has faced more treaties than any president in history.
I am the first president in U.S. history to order an unprovoked,
pre-emptive attack...
One word: Kosovo!
I am the first president in U.S. history to have the United Nations remove the U.S. from the Human Rights Commission.
To be replaced by Libya and China.
I am the first president in history to refuse United Nations election
inspectors
I am also the first to face such and intrusion of the UN in to US politics.
... Enron...
Look at the number of Democratic share holders in Enron. Oh no... we own far more shares than the Repubs. Sweep it under the rug quick!
"When I disagree with a rational man, I let reality be our final arbiter; if I am right, he will learn; if I am wrong, I will; one of us will win, but both will profit." - Ayn Rand

User avatar
lance
Ed Zwick Wannabe
Posts: 1983
Joined: Jul 6th 2002, 4:47 pm
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Contact:

Post by lance » Nov 26th 2003, 10:39 am

mglenn wrote:
With the help of my brother, the Governor of Florida, and my father's appointments to the Supreme Court, I became President after losing by over 500,000 votes.
Please give this a rest and stop believe a known lier like Moore. The Supreme Court in a 5 to 4, non party line, decision on December 12, reversed the Florida Supreme Court order holding that the Florida Supreme Court improperly established new standards for resolving Presidential election contests, thereby violating Article II, section 1, clause 2 of the U.S. Constitution, and that its order directing manual recounts without specific standards on how to review the ballots violated the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment.
Thing is this not going to rest. The Democratic base is fired up because of the fact that the Supreme Court, largely staffed by Reagan and Bush I appointees did give the election to George II. This does not sit well with many, many voters. Also please note the fact that the Supremes said that this ruling only applied to George and would not be applied in any subsequent case. Most of the Supreme Court rulings I am aware of are not so narrowly tailored as to benefit just one individual. Something smells rotten here, the question is whether voters will remember come next November.
Secondly Bush did not lose by 500,000 votes he won by 5 electorial votes. This is more of Moore's and the rest of the lefts sorry attempt to pull the wool over the eyes of the undereducated masses. We do not live in a democracy, we live in a representative republic. Once you understand that and what it means you can move on to more advance topics, like the fact that there is not seperation of church and state mentioned in the constitution and other fun "facts" the left likes to try to gloss over.
Sheesh, yes there is a seperation of church and state it is called the First Amendment.
I spent the U.S. surplus and effectively bankrupted the U.S. Treasury.
Oh you mean the "projected surplus" don't you? Cause there was no surplus.
There certainly isn't one now or likely to be any time soon thank to Mr. Bush & crew.

I set an economic record for most private bankruptcies filed in any
12-month period.
Yup he personally went out and put the businesses out of business. Stopping all airtraffic, finanical trading and losses in the trillions had nothing to do with that at all.
He did give huge tax cuts, get us into a war we didn't need to fight and give huge corporate subsidies to his campaign contributors, thereby expanding the deficit.
I am the first president in U.S. history to enter office with a criminal record.
As opposed to the first US president to be disbarred? Or the having the highest number of murdered associates? Or the highest number of incarserated associates?
That being Reagan right?
In my first year in office over 2-million Americans lost their jobs and that trend continues every month.

Bzzzzt! Wrong.. Jobless rates have turned around.
Not enough to put those 2 million plus Americans back to work yet.
I am the first president in U.S. history to have the United Nations remove the U.S. from the Human Rights Commission.
To be replaced by Libya and China.
Shows you how far we have fallen.
I am the first president in history to refuse United Nations election
inspectors
I am also the first to face such and intrusion of the UN in to US politics.
Oh yes the Right's big bad boogie man, the UN. Oh, no it the UN, they are going to take away all of our guns and SUVs and turn us into secular communisits.

:roll:

-LanceMan

User avatar
mglenn
MSCL.com Team
MSCL.com Team
Posts: 552
Joined: May 25th 1999, 4:46 pm
Location: Butler, PA ( AKA: Three Rivers, PA )
Contact:

Post by mglenn » Nov 26th 2003, 12:40 pm

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Lance, come on read it for yourself. What it says is that the government is not aloud to establish a state religion, like say The Church of England! There is nothing there to say that the government must be entirely seperate from all religion. Just that it can't establish one as the only one. Read the federalist papers for an excellent explination on the whys of the first amendment.
...any time soon thank to Mr. Bush & crew.
Ya your right it was bush and crew that flew the planes. Cause thats what was the caused the "projected surplus" to colapse.
He did give huge tax cuts...
So by your logic we should make the tax rate 100% till the deficit is covered, right? What effect do you think that would have on the economy?

Tax cuts can and do increase the income of the government. Taxes are effective only when money moves. The more you raise taxes the less the money moves because its not as effective. Lower the taxes you make the money more effective and suddenly is starts moving again.
That being Reagan right?
Ah... Reagan was an actor not a lawyer. No I was refering to Clinton.
Not enough to put those 2 million plus Americans back to work yet.
Once again, basic economics shows that jobs are the last economic indicator to change in a recovery. Why is that? Well lets think about it for a second. If my business is down and I'm not earning money will I be hiring new workers or hiring workers back. But when I start earning more money am I going to run right out and start hiring new employees or will I wait a bit and make sure that I have my feet back under me?
Shows you how far we have fallen.
You are going try to tell me we have a worse human rights here in the US than in China and Libya? Please!!!!
...Oh, no it the UN...
Why is it that people see this as the first steps on a slippery slope, and are concerned. We don't care to live under a world government that is not selected by our own citizens.
"When I disagree with a rational man, I let reality be our final arbiter; if I am right, he will learn; if I am wrong, I will; one of us will win, but both will profit." - Ayn Rand

User avatar
starbug
Lifehead
Posts: 1082
Joined: Jun 25th 2002, 4:51 am
Location: UK

Post by starbug » Nov 26th 2003, 1:56 pm

mglenn wrote: We don't care to live under a world government that is not selected by our own citizens.
I don't think anyone does. But that's exactly why the USA's membership of the UN is important - the rest of the world does (justifiably) I think feel like they are run by the USA sometimes. By adhering to UN rules this would mean the Bush Administration could counter some of that criticism - it's a collective UN decision; not the USA exercising muscle.

Frankly, at this point, I feel like Dubya is more in control of what happens in Britain than Blair is. I didn't elect Bush. I can't unelect him. But he has a truly worrying amount of influence on my country. Don't get me wrong, I don't like Blair either, and I won't vote for him again. But at least I have the opportunity not to. I never voted for Bush but it seems we have to put up with him anyway.

If the Bush Admin embraced the UN rather than poured scorn on it I would at least feel a little less like I was being trampled by a powerful nation at their whim.

---------------------------------------------
http://www.urban-hills.blogspot.com
---------------------------------------------

User avatar
fnordboy
Ed Zwick Wannabe
Posts: 1954
Joined: Sep 25th 2002, 10:29 am
Location: Exit 16E, NJ
Contact:

Post by fnordboy » Nov 26th 2003, 2:59 pm

starbug wrote: I didn't elect Bush.
Neither did we :(

User avatar
mglenn
MSCL.com Team
MSCL.com Team
Posts: 552
Joined: May 25th 1999, 4:46 pm
Location: Butler, PA ( AKA: Three Rivers, PA )
Contact:

Post by mglenn » Dec 1st 2003, 12:36 pm

First off I believe its important to understand that the UN was setup to prevent another world war by providing a means of communication between governments. It was not setup as any form of a ruling body ment to have control over the internal structure of any country. Now what the UN can do is bring together governments into agreements such that governments that are acting out of selfish and destructive motives are curtailed through resolutions. The issue at bar here is whether or not the UN lived up to that duty in dealing with Iraq. The simple fact is that 70% of the american people feel they did not and did not feel that leaving Saddam in power was in ours or the worlds best interest. All the whining and complaining I here from those against the war is dumbfounding to me. I can not understand how you can tell me that Iraq is not better off now and how bringing stablity to an inherently unstable part of the world is a bad thing? You say that the UN should have been given more time and simply ignore the fact that millions had been killed at the hands of a brutal regieme.

I don't know what or why you believe that Bush has such control in Britain. I don't live there and won't claim to understand the issues you and your government face. I believe that the only control Bush has is what your government gives him. But the fact remains that I didn't vote for the French President either and have to put up with the fact that he sold the second most oil rich nation in the world a reactor and then complains when Americans don't feel that its the safest thing to let a mad man keep.
If the Bush Admin embraced the UN rather than poured scorn on it I would at least feel a little less like I was being trampled by a powerful nation at their whim.
If the French and sociallist elite stopped pouring scorn on the attempt to bestow freedom on an oppressed people I would feel less like the world was an evil place were war was needed to bring about change for the better.

Interesting how it works both ways and yet I'm quite sure that my reasons are considered evil and misguided while all those that are against Bush and the war are in the best interest of everyone in the world.
"When I disagree with a rational man, I let reality be our final arbiter; if I am right, he will learn; if I am wrong, I will; one of us will win, but both will profit." - Ayn Rand

User avatar
starbug
Lifehead
Posts: 1082
Joined: Jun 25th 2002, 4:51 am
Location: UK

Post by starbug » Dec 1st 2003, 1:10 pm

mglenn wrote: I believe that the only control Bush has is what your government gives him.
That is partly it. The bigger part though is that there's no getting away from the fact that the US is the most powerful nation in the world. With this power comes a responsibility not to misuse it and I think that sometimes it is misused. I'm not only talking iraq here although that is a big example. the clear indication from Bush was that either you went along with their plan or you were a terrorist yourself. 'You're either with us, or you're with them.' This fails to see a gray area in anything where I think there was a vast swathe of gray.

Mglenn wrote:If the French and sociallist elite stopped pouring scorn on the attempt to bestow freedom on an oppressed people I would feel less like the world was an evil place were war was needed to bring about change for the better.
If I thought it was an attempt to bestow freedom, I'd agree with you. I think it was an attempt to shut down Sadaam's WMDs (which he doesn't seem to have had) and to shore up US control over major oil reserves. The freedom of the Iraqi people would be a biproduct (and a good one) but I don't see that it has happened yet. They still don't have freedom from the US soldiers, from the terrorist attacks that are daily occurrences.

I don't think you're evil :wink:

---------------------------------------------
http://www.urban-hills.blogspot.com
---------------------------------------------

User avatar
starbug
Lifehead
Posts: 1082
Joined: Jun 25th 2002, 4:51 am
Location: UK

Post by starbug » Dec 1st 2003, 1:19 pm

mglenn wrote: The simple fact is that 70% of the american people feel they did not and did not feel that leaving Saddam in power was in ours or the worlds best interest.
This just proves my point. Who gives '70% of the american people' the right to determine the best interests of the world??? You go in blazing gunpower purporting to be looking after the best interests of the 'world'? Do you really think that the opinion of 70% of the american people justifies a war and an expectation that the rest of the world will follow suit?
I don't.

It might justify the policy in a democratic sense within the USA but what is reprehensible is
a) the expectation that everyone should follow your lead
b) insults and name-calling when they don't (I'm thinking 'freedom fries')

---------------------------------------------
http://www.urban-hills.blogspot.com
---------------------------------------------

guitarchick
Overlooked Sibling
Posts: 36
Joined: Apr 2nd 2003, 9:42 pm
Location: Montreal, QC
Contact:

Post by guitarchick » Dec 2nd 2003, 12:30 am

Who gives '70% of the american people' the right to determine the best interests of the world??? You go in blazing gunpower purporting to be looking after the best interests of the 'world'? Do you really think that the opinion of 70% of the american people justifies a war and an expectation that the rest of the world will follow suit?
I don't.
Did any of you see the episode of Boston Public when they had that debate about the war? "Canada" and "America" were arguing and the kid who played America was like "The only way Canada would go to war would be if someone stole the Stanley Cup!" and the kid playing Canada said something like: "The reason we don't go to war is because Canadians live in the world. Americans live in America".

This discussion reminded me of that episode... 70% (and who knows if it would have been 70% without the news media spitting out republican propaganda) of Americans do not know what's best for the world. Maybe this is the reason there is so much anti-american sentiment around the world. They act as though they're more special than everybody else and they know best. "God bless America"...? what about the rest of the world?!

Emilie

User avatar
starbug
Lifehead
Posts: 1082
Joined: Jun 25th 2002, 4:51 am
Location: UK

Post by starbug » Dec 2nd 2003, 5:16 am

guitarchick wrote: and the kid playing Canada said something like: "The reason we don't go to war is because Canadians live in the world. Americans live in America".
:D that made me laugh...

---------------------------------------------
http://www.urban-hills.blogspot.com
---------------------------------------------

User avatar
mglenn
MSCL.com Team
MSCL.com Team
Posts: 552
Joined: May 25th 1999, 4:46 pm
Location: Butler, PA ( AKA: Three Rivers, PA )
Contact:

Post by mglenn » Dec 2nd 2003, 10:42 am

First off Starbug thanks for the great discussion. Just a note that nothing I say should be taken directly personal. I enjoy talking with you about it and relish the perspective you bring from the other side of the pond.
...'You're either with us, or you're with them.'...
I believe I understand where you come from when you take offence to this. But this fact remains that this is how most americans feel. The reason for this is that we can not understand how you can support a form of religion that is so destructive to the human soul. You must remember that almost every family in america came here to escape repression. We've heard our family stories about "the old country". Our grandfathers fought and died on the shores of Normandy to save millions more from oppression. Our great grand fathers fought in WWI. They didn't do it for money, glory or power. They did it because it was the right thing to do. Now when we are attacked and need to fight for our way of life all we hear is complaining about how we are riding rough shot over the world.

And frankly that hurts!

By pointing out every failure, and every reason as to why we should not do what is done, you are in effect aiding the enemy. You give him reason to continue the fight and prolong the death and destruction. We do not understand what it is that is so wrong with our country that you hate us. We settled a election that in a large part of the rest of the world would have turned into an armed conflict. But yet we are looked on as a people that will grab a gun to solve every problem.

You say there is a gray area. But I've never heard what it is. I've heard how america benifits from this over and over. And somehow thats a bad thing that we want to preserve our way of life. But thats not a grey area its envy. We are the most powerful nation in the world and we feel the reason for that is because we are doing something right. Do we have our problems? Sure. But if it comes down to oppression verses whether or not to have a prescription drug plan or not I'll gladly take the latter.
The freedom of the Iraqi people would be a biproduct (and a good one) but I don't see that it has happened yet.
I've addressed this before. This is not some after school movie where every thing gets wrapped up in the last five minutes with a little bow. Its real life! It took seven years to rebuild Germany after WW2. Three years to just get a government working. We are on track to have the Iraqis electing their own government in less than six months from now. The Iraqis have the freedom to do almost anything at this point. Do they face danger? Sure! But freedom comes with a price attached. You make it sound as if the american soliders are the oppressors. I've yet to hear of an american Marine feeding poeple into plastic shredders or taking a car battery to someones genitals. The US Army does not employ a government sanctioned rapist. What I do see is the good in the american men and women that serve in our armed forces and the evil that was Saddam's government. White and Black if you will. I see no grey in that.
"When I disagree with a rational man, I let reality be our final arbiter; if I am right, he will learn; if I am wrong, I will; one of us will win, but both will profit." - Ayn Rand

User avatar
starbug
Lifehead
Posts: 1082
Joined: Jun 25th 2002, 4:51 am
Location: UK

Post by starbug » Dec 2nd 2003, 12:56 pm

mglenn wrote:First off Starbug thanks for the great discussion. Just a note that nothing I say should be taken directly personal. I enjoy talking with you about it and relish the perspective you bring from the other side of the pond.
likewise.
mglenn wrote:
...'You're either with us, or you're with them.'...
The reason for this is that we can not understand how you can support a form of religion that is so destructive to the human soul.
Do you mean the muslim religion? I'm not sure, but if you are referring to Islam, I don't think it's destructive at all. I know lots of muslim people who are religious but not at all in an overzealous way - the Quran preaches peace in the same way the bible does. The issue is that a small proportion of fundamentalists have taken a bizarre interpretation of the Quran (just as fundamentalist christians have done too with the bible) and used it to try and justify the fact that they are crazy and want to blow the world up. There are wackos in every religion and I don't think it's fair to brand the entire muslim religion as destructive to the human soul.
mglenn wrote: They didn't do it for money, glory or power. They did it because it was the right thing to do. Now when we are attacked and need to fight for our way of life all we hear is complaining about how we are riding rough shot over the world.
I know. What I don't understand is your statement of how Iraq was threatening your way of life. Yes Saddam killed lots of people and I'm the first to say he was wrong. But I don't see the connection to a threat to the American way of life. If he had WMDs and bombed you or was looking likely to, then fine.
The only thing I can see that was potentially threatening the American way of life was a future oil shortage and those resources being in the hands of an uncooperative Saddam. Then you would have to cut back on your truly outrageous (as a nation) levels of energy consumption.
I'm not trying to be insulting; I'm trying to understand. How was Saddam specifically threatening your way of life?
mglenn wrote:By pointing out every failure, and every reason as to why we should not do what is done, you are in effect aiding the enemy. You give him reason to continue the fight and prolong the death and destruction.
I disagree. I'm doing what I was trained to do in school; question everything. Believe me, I question loads about my own country too. I don't see how raising questions helps the terrorists. Do you think that if suddenly everyone shut up disagreeing with the Bush administration, that Osama would suddenly go 'OK, well, that's that - there just isn't any point anymore boys. Let's give up.' I think that's a really unlikely scenario.
mglenn wrote: We do not understand what it is that is so wrong with our country that you hate us.
Hate is a strong word. I don't hate Americans (as I've stated before, my parents are american). It's just that sometimes, as a nation, and particularly with this administration, you seem to have no concept of the way things are done differently in other countries, and that any point of view other than what is best for America could possibly be correct. Take the steel tariffs. Is that fair? My government stood beside yours but now your government slaps on a steel tariff that is helping to cripple our economy. Citizens of my country have been held as prisoners in Guantanamo bay for 2 years and the USA is only just beginning to even discuss this as an issue. there is no discernable evidence against at least 2 of them.
Mglenn, this is an honest question. I'd like you to name the countries you've visited outside the US.
mglenn wrote:But yet we are looked on as a people that will grab a gun to solve every problem.
It is looking that way in an international context, when the US feels threatened, yes. Do I think America is full of gun toting crazies (and I don't include you in this :wink: )? It probably has more than its fair share. But I certainly don't think that every american has lost the ability to solve problems with discussion.
mglenn wrote: You say there is a gray area. But I've never heard what it is.
whether or not there were WMDs is still a grey area. Whether or not the coalition could effectively manage the aftermath of a war it would definitely win. Whether a war would even achieve a reduction in international terrorism. Whether there was enough money in the coffers to do this. And the biggest one: whether it is right to enforce upon the middle east a US-led 'let's change this area into how we want it to be'. Have you heard of cultural imperialism? It's a really grey area and it definitely applies here.
mglenn wrote:And somehow thats a bad thing that we want to preserve our way of life.
here you go again with the preservation of your way of life. See above.
mglenn wrote: But thats not a grey area its envy.
No, truly, it isn't. You'll just have to believe me on that one. Your statement is rooted in arrogance which assumes that your country is better than any other.
mglenn wrote: We are the most powerful nation in the world and we feel the reason for that is because we are doing something right.
Actually lots of it has to do with a rich array of natural resources, your sheer size, your low population density, and the willingness of your people to work hard to earn a living and strive to be the best. The latter is the only one I can see that you have any control over, and it's one of the things I admire about the USA. But it applies to lots of other countries too. You have the happy combination of both but others do not.

And you're right, we've addressed your last point before and we'll just have to wait and see what happens... I don't think it helps to go into it again.

---------------------------------------------
http://www.urban-hills.blogspot.com
---------------------------------------------

User avatar
lance
Ed Zwick Wannabe
Posts: 1983
Joined: Jul 6th 2002, 4:47 pm
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Contact:

Post by lance » Dec 3rd 2003, 1:47 pm

Who gives '70% of the american people' the
This discussion reminded me of that episode... 70% (and who knows if it would have been 70% without the news media spitting out republican propaganda) of Americans do not know what's best for the world. Maybe this is the reason there is so much anti-american sentiment around the world. They act as though they're more special than everybody else and they know best. "God bless America"...? what about the rest of the world?!

Emilie
Guitarchick/Emilie,

Bless you. You have hit the nail squarely on the head. In March 2003 would 70% of the US supported the war if the American press did its job instead of acting as a propaganda arm for the Bush Administration? Would 70% of the US had supported the war if the right wing of the country didn't have a stranglehold on the US press, for example the constant war drumming of the Fox news network or Clear Channel.

I don't think that now 70% of the American public support the President's policy in Iraq. I think that the vast majority of Americans support & love our men and women in the armed forces. And when a sitting President lies to the American people as to why we are putting our troops in harm's way (WMD's, Iraq's alleged connection to Al-Queda) and in the process causes the deaths of 441 American soliders and the wounding of 2, 496 soliders (see http://lunaville.org/warcasualties/Summary.aspx) it is patriotic for Americans and others to ask: why?

Why did this happen? When will our troops come home? How are we going to pay for this war? How could this situation have been handled better? Why weren't our historic allies (France & Germany) not with us on this war? Why was the Pope and other religious leaders against this war? Why were so many other countries against this war?

-LanceMan

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests