Graham and Hallie

General discussion about the nineteen episodes of "My So-Called Life". Note: Our episode guide can be found here.
NIGHTJESSI
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Re: Graham and Hallie

Post by NIGHTJESSI » Jan 17th 2002, 12:26 am

Wow, Joanna! Are you a long hair fan to begin with? I have long hair and have never liked short hair much (no offense meant to those of you who have short hair), but for some reason, I actually like Patty better with the short hair.

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Re: Graham and Hallie

Post by Joanna » Jan 17th 2002, 7:44 pm

Well!! LOL - your post made me laugh! I do like long hair actually and although mine is long it isn't crimson glow!! When I was 15 I asked my hair dresser about dying my hair red and she said I was too pale and would look like death warmed up! --- so I stayed natural (but STILL have the bottle of red hair dye I bought 7 years ago!! --- just in case!!!) - However I do agree that short hair DOES suit certain people - I just get annoyed when wives (once they have their mate) seem to nearly always cut their hair shorter...like it's something older wives and mothers just DO! I don't think it's fair on the man (or a wise thing to do if your man is prone to prowling other women like Graham does.....). OK, so no doubt once I am married (hopefully not for years to come) I may feel inclined to cut my hair but in this case I just feel it ages Patty by at least 6 years -- with her long hair like that it hurts to look at.....no no that's another quote!!!! -- with her hair long like in the first episode, she looks about 32, once she's had her hair cut she looks about 38 to me - why do that to yourself?? There is just nothing about her new hair style --- it's just short and unstyled.....and it shows her ears more lol!!! Come on lad-lifers what do you reckon?? Let's let the male fans decide lol!!!

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Re: Graham and Hallie

Post by Nostradamus » Aug 2nd 2002, 9:03 am

Joanna wrote:I do agree that short hair DOES suit certain people - I just get annoyed when wives (once they have their mate) seem to nearly always cut their hair shorter...like it's something older wives and mothers just DO! I don't think it's fair on the man (or a wise thing to do if your man is prone to prowling other women like Graham does.....). OK, so no doubt once I am married (hopefully not for years to come) I may feel inclined to cut my hair but in this case I just feel it ages Patty by at least 6 years -- with her long hair like that it hurts to look at.....no no that's another quote!!!! -- with her hair long like in the first episode, she looks about 32, once she's had her hair cut she looks about 38 to me - why do that to yourself?? There is just nothing about her new hair style --- it's just short and unstyled.....and it shows her ears more lol!!! Come on lad-lifers what do you reckon?? Let's let the male fans decide lol!!!

"And dance by the light of the moon!"
I decided to risk accusations of necromancy with this deceased thread because I couldn't let Joanna's question go unanswered. I hereby certify that I am of the male species and, excepting those scary "G.I. Jane" buzzcuts, I think short hair on a lass is dead sexy! If you do not believe me, mosy on over to http://www.chasemasterson.com, look at Chase, and then tell me she isn't sexy! 8)

Now, as for Patty, some things to bear in mind:
  • 1-There was a significant time gap between the filming of the pilot and Dancing in the Dark.
    2-If Patty looked especially eldritch when we first see the new do in Dancing in the Dark, it's probably because of that hideous dress and shoes, which were all wrong for her age and body type.
    3-She may have had a few wrinkles, but she could still pull off the suggestive eyebrow wiggle with the best of them :wink:
    4-We're talking about a Baby Boomer Soccer Mom; if she were too attractive, her character would have been unbelievable!
Ironically, my hair is longer than any of my female friends' hair, and I think they're jealous!
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I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it.
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Patty's short hair

Post by Megs » Aug 2nd 2002, 12:27 pm

I think that Patty looked a thousand times better with short hair. And as an old married lady (at 25! LOL), I agree that many women tend to cut their hair after the wedding and/or baby. It's an interesting phenonmenon (sp?). I cut my hair from below shoulder to chin length. I had grown out my hair for the wedding, and just got sick of it. Short hair can be very sexy! :wink:

But I never did understand why some women have long hair after 35. IMHO it just doesn't look right. Short hair is sophisticated and I think it takes years off. Especially for Patty.
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Post by Natasha (candygirl) » Aug 2nd 2002, 1:07 pm

First the hair: I did like Patty better with longer hair BUT if I hadn't seen it that way, I never would have looked at her short hair and thought "Wow, she should really grow it out." I must admit that I was trained by my mother to think girls have long hair - or at least past their ears - so I am biased.

As far as why women cut their hair (especially when they are older), I think it's a combination of many factors, the first and foremost being that it's easier to care for. As women get older and have more and more important things to worry about such as mortgage, work, kids, etc. (more in this context meaning multiple things to worry about as well as greater importance than the things they worried about in their teens and twenties), spending extra time on hair seems extraneous and unnecessary.

For women who have settled down with a mate, the preening "look at me" attention seeking is no longer necessary. Translation: no more hoochie clothes at the bars.

For women who have kids, long hair can be a detriment - just one more thing for the kids to pull, eat, puke on, etc. Cutting it off is an issue of practicality.

On a more psychological level, I think that women sometimes cut their hair off because long hair and ponytails often represent childhood, immaturity, frivolity. Shorter hair is not only easier to care for and more practical, but a sign of maturity. In addition, the physical act of cutting off long hair is very freeing. Not to get all hippie on you here, but anyone who has had long hair and cut it off knows what I'm talking about - you literally feel lighter. And it's so nice to be able to go about the daily routine without that long hair getting caught in the car window, on the screws of chairs, under someone's arm, etc.

For the record, I still have long hair :D

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Post by Natasha (candygirl) » Aug 2nd 2002, 1:25 pm

Sorry, I was so busy going on and on about hair that I never got around to the original topic at hand of Hallie and Graham.

Now that Brad is out of the picture, Hallie is free to go on her merry way seducing Graham. Graham, however, is still firmly entrenched in the world of responsibility with Patty and the kids.

His sense of duty (and pre-emptive guilt) is what kept him from going through with the first affair attempt in the pilot, and I think that is what will keep him from letting anything happen with Hallie.

I agree with what people have said about Hallie being annoying yet supportive, but keep in mind that she is supportive of Graham's cooking because she has a stake in it: making money with the restaurant venture (as well as keeping Graham in her life).

Graham knows that Patty can be supportive too (re: the scene where he tells her not to do that annoying supportive thing that "ruins it"), but her stake in all this is keeping her family together.

On a superficial level, Patty represents the mundane routine ("bring home paper towels") while Hallie represents the fulfillment of his dreams (becoming a chef); however, on a more basic level Patty represents the fulfillment of his dreams (a loving wife & kids, a house in the suburbs, etc).

I know that people have pointed out that Patty nags Graham and often treats him like a child, but in the dynamics of their relationship that is what works. [parenthetical aside: relationships are very yin-yang in that you find someone who brings out the better side of you, helps you be a better person, gives you the strength that you lack, etc. - it's a balance i.e. "Mini Me, you complete me :wink:] For example, yes Patty nagged Graham to take that cooking class and then signed him up without his permission, but what the heck was he doing anyway? Moping around the house until he decided to wallpaper the bedroom. People dream about having the opportunity to start over in life careerwise, and instead of jumping at the chance, Graham waffled. Patty knew that he had always wanted to go to cooking school and was trying to nudge him towards his dream.

On top of that, let's look at Hallie's admittedly annoying personality. She is pushy and overbearing. Do you think that given the restaurant circumstances she wouldn't have become as much of a nag as Patty?

Graham seems to like strong women, perhaps so that he can avoid making too many decisions and hence avoid blame. Both Patty and Hallie are smart, assertive women who are not afraid to make decisions and keep on trucking. Neither of them are heartless though, and I think that eventually Hallie would see that Graham is resisting her advances because he knows that his future is with Patty. Once Hallie accepted that, she would find herself another Brad or another project.

Elinor

Post by Elinor » Aug 2nd 2002, 1:25 pm

To get back to the original question- would Graham have cheated on Patty- I believe that he probably would have. Not because he doesn't love Patty, and his family (or because, like some of you think, Patty is the most annoying person), but because Hallie was also attractive. As has already been said, she was very different to Patty, and sometimes when you're tired of the relationship you're in, you think finding somebody very opposite to your partner would be the solution. But...Graham did on their weddingday vow to love Patty all his life, in good times and bad, and so I think the most loving way out of this situation, would for Graham have been to not open this restaurant with Hallie. I'm not saying that he shouldn't pursue his dreams and open a restaurant, but in order to keep his family whole, and strengthen his relationship to Patty, he should have been wise and not taken any risk by opening it with Hallie. (alternative, to let Patty and Hallie would become good friends)
So what about No risk- no fun? Sometimes that's true, and I love taking risks. But when it comes to relationships- the most precious gift, the thing we were created for.... we shouldn't be so foolish to risk them. True love always involves a lot of sacrifice.

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Post by kimincali » Aug 2nd 2002, 4:27 pm

I have to disagree with most and say that I don't think Graham would have cheated on Patty. When Graham and Hallie "seal the deal" on the restaurant, so to speak, they have an opportunity to cheat and you can feel the tension, but Graham goes home to Patty instead.

I actually think that Patty and Graham's relationship was getting better towards the end of the show.

As for Patty, I think she's getting a bad rap in the forum. I think that her "nagging" came from her desire to understand graham and help him. In the episode where Sharon's dad has the heart attack, and Patty keeps asking Graham questions and you just want to shoot her, if you look at it from her point of view, she sees Graham is upset, but doesn't know what's wrong, and she's just trying to figure out how to help. As for the cooking class, she was only trying to get Graham to do something that he enjoyed, and when she asked if the class was too difficult, maybe she should have been more supportive, but she also just might have been trying to get him to open up. Finally, in my favorite episode, when she fails to notice angela's insecurities about feeling ugly, it is definitely not surprising that patty did not pick up on angela's feelings. She was extremely beautiful in high school and never had the issues that angela was dealing with. much like the situation with graham, patty probably thought she was just helping angela find something she would enjoy

so, patty is a good person, even though sometimes she might not know the best way to apply her concern. I think graham realizes this by the time things start to happen with Hallie, and I think he has made his choice.

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Post by socalledfan » Aug 8th 2002, 9:23 am

Some great perspectives here on this topic!

KiminCali, I hope you are right. I hope Graham has seen the light and recommitted himself to Patty by the time he has that "opportunity" with Hallie.

I think Graham and Patty both experienced a lot of personal growth and soul-searching that year....but I like to believe it all served to make them closer.
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Re: Graham and Hallie

Post by majesty » Aug 2nd 2008, 5:23 pm

Hello, everyone! I'm new to the board. 8)

Regarding Hallie and Graham, I do think an affair between them was imminent. And I think everyone (Graham, Hallie, Patti, Camille, Brad, etc) knew it. They were too close and acting irresponsibly toward one another.

One of the reasons I wish there was a season 2 of the show is because I'm almost certain the two would have had an affair, and I'm equally sure that Patti would have found out. Season 2 would have been an excellent opportunity to explore the depths of a damaged marriage with the threat of separation and divorce.

It's interesting to me that so many people blame Patti for her husband's near-infidelities. Of course, Patti can be nit-picky and overly critical. But I'm reminded of a conversation Graham had with Angela in the first episode, where he defended Patti against Angela's criticisms, reminding her that Patti loved her family and did so much for all of them. Patti loves her husband and was, in the latter part of the season, making a conscious effort not to be so critical and to be more supportive. Even with the cooking class, Graham was mad at her for pushing him into the class, yet he later admitted that it was probably the best decision and the only way to get him to do it. Patti just wanted what was best for him. She always had the best intentions. It's funny that Patti inadvertently pushed her husband into his relationship with Hallie by signing him up. But I don't think she should be blamed. Graham would be totally at fault if he decided to engage in an affair. Critical or not, Patti is his loving wife. He'd be destroying (or at least severely damaging) his marriage and, by association, his family. Not ok.

I mean, both Patti and Graham had their faults. Patti's were more pronounced, I guess, but Graham certainly showed signs of selfishness and general "not caring." He also often shut Patti out emotionally, which caused a lot of her unsupportive comments. For instane, Graham was the one who initially thought the class might be too hard, which is why he was studying the night before the first class. When he came home, instead of responding to Patti's questions of how it went, he kind of ignored her, leading her to suggest the class might have been too hard. It seemed unsupportive and he immediately took offense, yet I don't think she would have jumped to that conclusion had he not stated that fear earlier. And he could have simply answered her about how it went before she even suggested that. :lol:

And what's so great about Hallie, lol? She was annoying and argumentative. If they were together, I'm sure her faults would begin to aggravate him more and more as time passed. No one is perfect, but Patti is his wife.

I do, however, think Graham and Patti's relationship would endure his infidelity. They'd have a huge rift between them, but I doubt they would actually divorce. They were actually a good couple. They had passion and love for one another and were good parents. I think it would see them through.

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Re: Graham and Hallie

Post by Cami A. » Aug 3rd 2008, 2:46 am

Majesty,

Amen!
I totally agree with everything you said.
I don't know why so many people hate on Patty
and blame her for Graham's actions.

Although she was annoying sometimes she always meant well.
And she was as selfless as a mothers should be. She reminds
me of my own Mom, who I hated when I was 15, but respect
so much now that I understand where she's coming from.

And Graham had flaws too, he was often insensitive and
irresponsible as the man of the house.

I enjoyed reading all of your thoughts about Patty, Graham,
and Angela/Brian/Jordan. They were very well written and I
agree with you on many levels.

You should check out a thread in the Show Forum called
"ABOUT ANGELA." I started it and it basically begins with
a discussion of Angela's character not being that great..
and ends up with a criticism/defense of Patty and a discussion
of Angela's relationship with Graham.

I think you might find some interesting stuff to say about
the material posted there, and I'd really like to revive the topic.
"So, the mouse makes pressure, just by breathing?...I can relate."

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Re: Graham and Hallie

Post by majesty » Aug 3rd 2008, 6:30 am

Thanks, Cami! I enjoyed reading many posts on this forum. Though a lot of them are old (it's like a ghost town!), just like the show, they still are entertaining and thought provoking. I'm venturing into the threads one by one and trying to read to catch up and post. :D

I was only about 8 years old when MSCL premiered. :shock: I remember watching the pilot episode and liking the show (which is odd, because I was so young... but I remembered Angela looking at Jordan and her "it's hurts to look at things" comment very vividly for years), and re-discovered it fully in college. It's one of my favorite all-time shows, and one of my three favorite dramas. The thing is, not many of my friends or family members watched or even know the show. I've taken it upon myself to force them to watch my dvd set and make them love it. :lol: So I like the discussions here with fans of the show, because not many people around me know it well.

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Re: Graham and Hallie

Post by Cami A. » Aug 3rd 2008, 6:47 am

Majesty,
Haha. I know what you mean. I was 7 when it first aired. And I didn't watch it then. I only just discovered in October 2007 when ABC.com showed it as a promotion for the new DVD set. I got the DVD box set for Easter and I've been "converting" my parents with great success into Life-heads! No one else in my world has watched it either so I've got to come places like this to discuss it as well. But, yes, this site is like a ghost town! Thanks for joining and bringing it back to life for a bit.

I don't think I'll ever get tired of MSCL! It's genius. Definitely my favorite show of all time, followed (though not too closely) by October Road which only aired for 2 seasons and Gilmore Girls.

Back to Graham and Hallie--I kinda like the idea of him cheating on Patty with her and getting to experience a new type of woman, then realizing how perfect Patty is for him. I think Patty could also benefit from this in a round-about way. If she was angry and upset by finding out that Graham cheated, she could use those emotions to fuel some living for herself. I don't feel that she lives for herself at all during the series! I feel sorry for her! She could find a passion that doesn't involve her family maybe? What do you think?
"So, the mouse makes pressure, just by breathing?...I can relate."

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Re: Graham and Hallie

Post by majesty » Aug 3rd 2008, 6:53 am

I will definitely check out the fanfiction around here. I love that this old show still inspires people. :)

I'm not sure what an affair would mean for Patti. It would certainly crush her. I imagine her making Graham move out for awhile. :shock: But you're right, we certainly don't know much about Patti's interest or her life outside of marriage/family/work. It also must be hard for her with her best friend being Camille, a woman who is comfortable in her own skin ("The Zit") and has a fulfilling, sexy marriage. You can kind of see how Patti reacts when Camille says she couldn't survive without her husband, yet Patti could.

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Re: Graham and Hallie

Post by Cami A. » Aug 3rd 2008, 7:00 am

majesty wrote:It also must be hard for her with her best friend being Camille, a woman who is comfortable in her own skin ("The Zit") and has a fulfilling, sexy marriage. You can kind of see how Patti reacts when Camille says she couldn't survive without her husband, yet Patti could.
Wow. What an insightful point!

I never quite understood that scene until now.
I guess she is realizing that she could survive without Graham. She doesn't need him to support her as she's the breadwinner, the household decision-maker etc.

But then again, I thought maybe she realized she did need him--because that's why she forced herself on him in the hospital. Or maybe she was just trying to force herself to need him at that moment because she thought she should need him??

I think she definitely is jealous of the Cherskis and their sex life though. Camille is always giving Patty things to spice up her sex life (handcuffs, lingerie) and the way Camille's husband is the "stronger" figure.

I definitely Graham cheating would give her a chance to finally just be with herself and figure herself out!
"So, the mouse makes pressure, just by breathing?...I can relate."

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