Discussion for Episode 12: Self Esteem

TomSpeed · Post by **TomSpeed** » Mar 31st 2003, 4:38 pm

The first sighting of Angela and Jordan making out is kind of shocking. How do they get there? Their relationship seems to jump several rungs on the relationship ladder in a very short period of time. I know that TV must shorten time, but the effect is kind of jarring. I immediately get the impression that even though this is something Angela has wanted very much things are not going to go well. Even the setting, the boiler room, is kind of menacing and spirit sapping.

More later. Busy!

Post by **Natasha (candygirl)** » Mar 31st 2003, 4:56 pm

Nostradamus wrote:What the hell was Hallie doing with her bag? At first she seems to be reaching for something, but does she ever pull anything out? Or is she so bored that she has to do something with her hands -- a manual fixation?

I thought that she was rummaging around for the breath mints that she offered to Graham and then quit looking because he declined.

Post by **Natasha (candygirl)** » Mar 31st 2003, 5:09 pm

TomSpeed wrote:The first sighting of Angela and Jordan making out is kind of shocking. How do they get there? Their relationship seems to jump several rungs on the relationship ladder in a very short period of time. I know that TV must shorten time, but the effect is kind of jarring. I immediately get the impression that even though this is something Angela has wanted very much things are not going to go well.

This is another instance where BF leaves a big chunk of plot out and lets us wonder how they got there. I agree that although Angela has obsessed about being with Jordan, it's not an auspicious jump start to their "relationship." I totally feel her though - another story involving the guy that I mentioned earlier who I made out with in high school.

I had a crush on him for ages, but he always saw me as one of the guys (is this starting to sound like a crappy 80s movie yet?). When we finally hooked up, it was very sudden and unexpected. I initially thought it would be a step to becoming his girlfriend. Instead, that's all that happened - we made out but I never got any of the girlie benefits (Kyle might have looked like a jerk by the end of Life of Brian, but he did seem to treat Sharon like an Official Girlfriend from the very beginning, letting her wear his letterman's jacket, taking her out on dates, etc).

By the time I figured out that the "relationship" wasn't going anywhere, I was convinced even more so that I really liked this guy. As horrid as it sounds now, I was desperate enough that I was willing to take any attention I could get from him. And it's not like making out with him was unpleasant!

Things ended between us very similarly to the situation between Angela and Jordan - he wanted to have sex and I wasn't ready. After wrestling with the issue, both literally and figuratively, I ended it. Then he wrote me a heartbreaking note about how he realized he should have had better priorities, spent more time with me (he was a three sport athlete at his high school), etc. There was more heartfelt emotion and honesty in that short note than he had ever verbalized to me (but I'm pretty sure he didn't have Brian Krakow write it for him!).

As much as that made me feel like he could change and be good to me, I didn't want to go back down that road. He never slept with my best friend, but I think that going to different high schools 20 miles apart really cut down on having many friends in common.

I think that the jarring effect was intended by BF - because we don't see the transition between what had happened in previous episodes to what precipitated the make out sessions is a sign in itself that this might not be a long haul kind of thing that Angela hopes it will become.

Lindsay · Post by **Lindsay** » Mar 31st 2003, 5:24 pm

I'm pretty sure Jordon thought that if he left a note in Angela's locker to meet him, and she WENT that that would be his way of "making up." Like, because she was there she had forgiven him, and that because he left the note it showed he was into the boiler room sessions, which in turn ment he was into her. Good for Angela to voice concern!!!!

TomSpeed · Post by **TomSpeed** » Mar 31st 2003, 5:53 pm

I really like how Brian and Rickie's friendship is developing, too. Having girls as friends is fine. But girls can't always be a guy's compadre or bud. Male bonding is important, even though it gets bum rap. Guys need other guys to use as touchstones. Both Brian and Rickie are in need of male friendship. The fact that they both know and have a great fondness for Angela probably goes a long way to explain the fact that they seem comfortable with each other. It would be so easy for Brian to treat Rickie unfairly because of their differences and vice versa. The scene on the steps when Rickie talks about Mr. Katimsky and Brian talks about Angela is a classic one. At first glance, it seems like they are totally out of synch with one another. However, Rickie has been paying attention and he seems to have a firm grasp on Brian's feelings for Angela. "So, you aren't going over [to Angela's]?" Rickie knows the answer already.

TomSpeed · Post by **TomSpeed** » Mar 31st 2003, 6:13 pm

I really don't understand Rickie's initial dislike of Mr. Katimsky either. You would think that Rickie would be the last person to get bent out shape by someone different from the norm. He always seem to be understanding of others. Rickie's outbursts seem to be unprovoked. I guess he needs to act out a bit so that Mr. Katimsky will notice his acting ability, but I agree with CG that Rickie's outbursts smacks of the diva or drama queen. It's interesting that Mr. Katimsky wants Rickie to be in the drama club because Rickie can act, but Rickie doesn't have a role in Our Town.

Post by **Natasha (candygirl)** » Mar 31st 2003, 7:02 pm

TomSpeed wrote:I really don't understand Rickie's initial dislike of Mr. Katimsky either. You would think that Rickie would be the last person to get bent out shape by someone different from the norm.

This may be a classic case of criticizing in others what he dislikes most about himself - perhaps Rickie recognizes Mr. Katimski's personality as similar to his own on an unconscious level, which is why he resists joining the drama club for so long.

Nothingman · Post by **Nothingman** » Mar 31st 2003, 7:55 pm

I don't think Rickie likes being called Enrique and being singled out in front of the class. I believe this is why he jokes about it as a defense mechanism. No one likes the fact that they are different pointed out, especially in high school. Rickie just wants to fit in, he does dress a little differently and he deserves credit for still being who is in spite of the pressure, but his desire to fit in is still very strong. Being called Enrique remindes himself and the rest of the class that he is different. I believe this is what sets Rickie off initially. In addition to this, the teachers that push us the hardest to excel and leave our comfort zone are often the ones we resent the most initially and appreciate the most in the end. As Mr. Katimsky pushes Rickie to do something outside of that comfort zone, it makes Rickie defensive. I believe that is the source of the dislike, not Mr Katimsky himself, his personality is just the easiest thing to attack. Kind of like Angela and Sharon in "the zit"; you point out my insecurities and I'll point out yours.

TomSpeed · Post by **TomSpeed** » Mar 31st 2003, 9:22 pm

I guess Mr. Katimsky could equate to Mr. Racine. Both teachers seem to be different from average teachers. Rickie reacts to Mr. Katimsky in a much the same way that Brian reacts to Mr. Racine. However, after an initial rocky start, Rickie seems more willing to take part in what Mr. Katimsky has to offer.

TomSpeed · Post by **TomSpeed** » Mar 31st 2003, 10:07 pm

Does Hallie Lowenthal grate on anyone else's nerves like she does mine? I just don't like her. Of course, I'm probably letting the remainder of the series get to me. I just don't like her. Nothing too deep about this post. Sigh!

TomSpeed · Post by **TomSpeed** » Mar 31st 2003, 10:49 pm

How does Rickie know where Angela is? Did Angela tell him before she told Rayanne? The way he asks Rayanne, "So...guess where Angela is!" makes me think that she confided in him and no one else knows at that point.

Rickie is very observant. He has probably seen Angela and Jordan enter the boiler room. Granted, Angela and Jordan probably enter a minute or so apart, but you wouldn't need to be Brian (AKA Brain) to figure out what's going on. Odds are that other people have noticed as well. That's why Jordan's desire to keep their making out a secret seems like a sham to me. If the boiler room is such a well known makeout spot, people probably watch to see who uses it. You couldn't can't have a more public secret place than the boiler room. Word would get around. Maybe Jordan hasn't thought things through.

What's so wrong with Angela anyway? Why would Jordan want to keep their "relationship" a secret? I'm not so sure that peer pressure fully explains what is going on.

nkatsa · Post by **nkatsa** » Apr 1st 2003, 1:55 am

candygirl wrote: This may be a classic case of criticizing in others what he dislikes most about himself - perhaps Rickie recognizes Mr. Katimski's personality as similar to his own on an unconscious level, which is why he resists joining the drama club for so long.

i was just going to say that i think this is exactly what was going on here. his reaction to mr katimski started off so extreme that it simply had to be some kind of unconscious freudian defense mechanism. he seemed to hate mr. katimski, and then he let it go when he started to realize what was going on behind the anger, which happened right after mr. katimski poignantly told him that "nobody should... hate who they are."

TomSpeed · Post by **TomSpeed** » Apr 1st 2003, 1:15 pm

Rayanne

It is interesting that Rayanne stands up for Angela with Jordan and leaves Rickie to face Mr. Katimsky alone. I love how Rayanne grabs Jordan's pool stick at Pike Street. It is such a sudden and forceful movement. This declaratory action can be contrasted with her ditching Rickie three times when he runs into Mr. Katimsky. I believe that Rayanne feels more comfortable standing up to her peers than adults. Also, she probably gets the sense from Rickie, despite his protests, that Mr. Katimsky is interested in helping Rickie. Additionally, Rayanne probably understands that joining the drama club will be a good thing for Rickie. Joining the drama club will give something to Rickie that Rayanne and his other friends cannot.

TomSpeed · Post by **TomSpeed** » Apr 1st 2003, 4:09 pm

candygirl wrote: In geometry, Miss Lerner says, "I'm not happy" to Angela and then tells Abyssinia, "Good job!" Maybe my school district had a different policy on student privacy, but teachers were not allowed to post grades with our names next to them. If they wanted to post grades, they had to come up with an alternate system (like giving us each a number). Similarly, they were not allowed to announce our grades to the class. Our teachers would not have been permitted to say obvious things like "Angela Chase, how do you expect to pass your midterm?" in front of the entire class

The entire series is filled with teachers not using customary discretion when talking about students. Teachers generally do not make negative comments about students in front of other students and/or parents. I guess the writers of MSCL wanted to make things more dramatic by having teachers say almost anything aloud.

The subject of posting grades is an interesting one. Generally, grades are not distributed publicly. However, some teachers, esp. those who teach college prep. classes, do post grades. A few of my teachers in high school posted grades for each test outside of their classroom doors. Teachers in my high school were on a tenure track similar to colleges. A teacher could do almost anything he wanted once he got tenure. Of course, enrolling in these courses was voluntary.

Megs · Post by **Megs** » Apr 1st 2003, 4:44 pm

Do you think that Ms. Lerner figured out that Mr. Kamitsky was gay when she said to Ms. Chavatal (?), "I just made a complete fool of myself."

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Discussion for Episode 12: Self Esteem

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