What did he mean?

[Guest]

Grim 4746 wrote;

I notice you didn't comment on the hand holding in the halls or Jordan's chat with Patty about Angela. Is that because you agree with me or because you don't see the relevance of such points?

Look,sorry man ,I didn't mean to offend you or something.It's just that I really dislike that character because...well because of the obvious.What you said about holding hands and talking to Angela's mom,it's not that I'm saying the guy can't be nice at times,it's just that for every positive thing he does there are like ten screwed up ones.
For example the holding hands thing,first he completely ignores her in front of his idiot friend( he reffers to Angela as "nothing" and "nobody"), then the top ten line" You're kinda crowding me".And yes,he did talk about his feeling with Patty but that was AFTER he called Angela abnormal for not sleeping with him and AFTER he slept with her best friend.There are things you just can't fix.So,my thought about Catalano is -good riddance to bad luggage.

[grim4746]

it's not that I'm saying the guy can't be nice at times,it's just that for every positive thing he does there are like ten screwed up ones...So,my thought about Catalano is -good riddance to bad luggage.

I totally agree. Jordan's cons far out weigh his pros. The few positive things Jordan does do tend to follow ten screwed up ones but hopefully that's an indication that he's actually learning from his mistakes and is slowly figuring out how people should treat those they care about. I think Jordan is screwed up and a dumbass but I think he cares and is trying. I do think Angela deserves better than some guy who one day might become a decent human being. I wasn't really offended, just a little touchy I guess. There's been an unusual amount of hostility lately, maybe people are just caught up in winter blues but thanks for the politeness.

[Guest]

Jordan's like dos she like that Cory guy and Graf's like it hard to say.Why does she think it's hard to say-does she think that Angela really likes Cory or is she just trying to depress him?

[Megs]

Jordan's like dos she like that Cory guy and Graf's like it hard to say.Why does she think it's hard to say-does she think that Angela really likes Cory or is she just trying to depress him?

Just trying to get him jealous would be my guess.

[guest 420]

to grim 4746 i think u are being unfair to jordan IMHO.
sure the guy is a grade 1 dumbass when it comes to school- but come on it's not all his fault. he told angela to keep the kissing a secret and as far as he is aware she is ok with it because she agrees to do it. Angela then makes up some bull which kind of forces her to go to pike street. i think she catches him off guard and his reaction is not surprising (he IS the one who wants to keep the relationship a secret). his reaction is dissapointing yes - but not surprising. but we love the fact that he later makes up for it at the end.

i love the characters because each and everyone has the habit of pissing you off cos they dissapoint you in some way but they also redeem themselves.

by the way my fav character was actually brian and lets face it he does piss you off aswell - the way he spreads the rumour about angela and jordan sleeping together, being cruel to delia etc. i have to say this is the only show where i found myself actually willing the characters to do certain things. No 1 on the list is.... willing brian to kiss angela when she confronts him about the letter. i mean he like totally deserved to after all the stuff angela put him though

[Jody Barsch*]

I know, I know, I am fighting a losing battle, but I love Catalano. I need some other Jordan fans out there to come to is defense.

sure the guy is a grade 1 dumbass when it comes to school-

Um, I disagree. He was able to listen to a Shakespearian sonnet, and without any help or prompting, make an authentic and meaningful connection to his own experiences. Not that understanding a sonnet makes you a genius, but I wouldn’t qualify someone who is able to do it as a “grade 1 dumbass” either (isn’t it “grade A”?). Jordan is also able to pick up on the concept of irony, and after having it explained to him once, is able to recognize it in his own life; correctly applying new knowledge is the highest form of demonstrating understanding (I apologize, I realize that I have made this same point several times before).
True Jordan writes really short sentences and he did double-check that The Metamorphosis was made up, and there was the whole "I probably would have gotten a letter” incident, and okay, shoot him, he didn’t know the format of a haiku poem, but he is able to identify adjectives. I don't think he's stupid; as Hallie put it, “fairly out of it, - not unintelligent,” and I think that’s it, Jordan is fairly out of it and doesn’t pay a lot of attention to things he doesn’t see as relevant to him, such as school: “like it’s doing so much for me.”
Mr. Racine recognized intelligence in Jordan, “I’m on to you … don’t ever play dumb in my class again,” and not without reason. School has failed Jordan, he is in and out of remedial classes, no one had ever tried to help him improve his reading, he does not have a trusting relationship with the faculty: “I’m just not in the mood, to be treated like dirt”; “She’s been waiting for this, she thinks I’m a loser”; “there are too many good kids, I just don’t have time for the bad ones.” This school system has labeled Jordan as a bad kid, (when he walks into class late in the pilot the teacher looks at him and sighs in disgust), it has labeled him and then ignored him. Jordan is a “hiding out” student who practices coping strategies (slouching, sitting in the back, not talking, getting answers from others, ditching, etc.) in order to pass under the radar. He is the type of student they talk about when we say “no child left behind.” Jordan feels failed by school and therefore isn’t invested in working on it. He does however write songs (okay, so I think “Red” is kind of lame, but he definitely isn’t illiterate).

[Jody Barsch*]

Deleted repeat.

[Jody Barsch*]

Come on, can somebody back me up on the Catalano front? in any respect to his character?

[JodyBarsch]

Whoa! Okay, I seriously struggle! So much so that I had to log out!! I was in the middle of an intense phone conversation as I was doing this, and as I clearly wasn't paying enough attention, I accidentally posted this twice when I was actually trying to edit something. Then I tried to edit the second posting by just deleting the repeated message and write something entirely new, but it simply came out as another post. I realize that my ineptitude with posting may seriously lower my credibility with my arguments, especially when I am writing on something as controversial as Jordan's intellect.
Anyway, sorry. I suck.

[guest420]

jody i take ur point - it probably is grade A!
(i couldn't decide between grade 1 and grade a)
maybe i was a bit harsh but i never said he was unintelligent per se, just not very good (dambass) at school.
but how can u defend him thinking that question about The Metamorphosis let alone actually asking it? no school fails a kid so much they think this can actually happen.
U can't also defend the sleeping with Rayanne even though he has little liking for her even though he was drunk.
i'm not saying he is totally clueless, he does skillfully avoid going with angela to the dance and pike street but IMHO he is less than average when it comes to general intelligence. Surely u do not disagree with this?

also IMHO Racine was telling Jordan he knew he could not read and this is why he was on to him playing dumb but i do take ur point about his intelligence because we know he does write lyrics that are good enough to move others. Maybe Racine was recognising this when he says Jordan is a smart kid

[Jody Barsch*]

but come on it's not all his fault. he told angela to keep the kissing a secret and as far as he is aware she is ok with it because she agrees to do it. Angela then makes up some bull which kind of forces her to go to pike street. i think she catches him off guard and his reaction is not surprising...his reaction is dissapointing yes - but not surprising.

I totallyagree with all of this.

i love the characters because each and everyone has the habit of pissing you off cos they dissapoint you in some way but they also redeem themselves.

This is also one of my favorite things about the show -- Jordan is a dick to Angela, but so is brian, as you point out. Angela too has her less-than-wonderful moments, just as rayanne has her better moments -- taking Sharon to the hospital for one thing.

...willing brian to kiss angela when she confronts him about the letter. i mean he like totally deserved to after all the stuff angela put him through

For bran I would have liked to have seen him kiss her too, although I do not see them actually getting together. I wouldn't say that he "deserves" to kiss her though.

You also make a good point about Jordan and Kafka, although you would be surprised by how many high schoolers actually have this difficulty distinguishing between fiction and non-fiction, although perhaps not to such an extreme degree.

I do not defend Jordan for sleeping with Rayanne, but I do understand it to a degree.

but IMHO he is less than average when it comes to general intelligence. Surely u do not disagree with this?

I do not disagree.

also IMHO Racine was telling Jordan he knew he could not read and this is why he was on to him playing dumb

I do disagree here.[/i]

[Guest]

Come on, can somebody back me up on the Catalano front? in any respect to his character?

I don't think he's stupid( altough I think he himself thinks that).Jordan is more like a man who does things with his hands.And we have to respect that.

[Jody Barsch*]

Jody Barsch;

‘”you must have me, as your own, you can’t live another day knowing others could possess me”

Do you think there's any truth in that?

Judging by his behavior in "Resolutions," "Betrayal," and "In Dreams," and even as early as "Self-Esteem" and "Pressure," I think there is truth to it.

[Sophia CH4]

Jordan's like dos she like that Cory guy and Graf's like it hard to say.Why does she think it's hard to say-does she think that Angela really likes Cory or is she just trying to depress him?

no, i think she really doesn't know, because it's hard for other people to know what Angela thinking( not for us of course, because we can hear her thoughts,we know her)...

[chaseface888]

Besides both Rayanne and Jordan being drunk and depressed, in an odd warped way they were both trying to get closer to Angela temporarily and subconciously. Also, both of them are hormonal teenagers that can be lustily attracted to each other for a brief moment

Also, I agree Jordan is not super intelligent, but he's not dumb. He's a spacey teenage boy who is not great at school sort of intelligence, but also not as deep as Angela makes him out to be.