The Clinton Wars

Political Discussion: You've been warned! Please remember we are all friends here. Insults will not be tolerated!
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fnordboy
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Post by fnordboy » Sep 11th 2003, 1:36 pm

JPP13 wrote:I must admit I'm shocked about something. I figured by now one of the Haliburton flunkies would be planting, for later "discovery" some vials with a certain substance (Rumsfeld sold it for years) with Arabic writing on the outside.
:lol: I know...it surprises me as well.

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Post by Nothingman » Sep 11th 2003, 1:39 pm

I just have to shake my head when I think about congress writing a blank check for Iraq, but then start counting pennies when it comes expenses at home. I don't understand how it's ok to have a deficit paying for the rebuilding of a country who doesnt want us there, but it's not ok to fund a perscription drug program, or help those without healthcare. I understand that we can't afford it all at the same time, but if there was no Iraq, would the gov't fund programs at home with a blank check. No, they'd say we don't have the money.
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Post by fnordboy » Sep 11th 2003, 2:02 pm

"When a government takes over a people's economic life it becomes absolute, and when it has become absolute it destroys the arts, the minds, the liberties and the meaning of the people it governs."
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Post by andrewgd » Sep 11th 2003, 2:40 pm

I have a question that has been bothering me for a while:

Why is it we see all of this that is wrong, yet the majority of American doesn't? Are we smarter and can realize these things better? Were most of America raised not to question? Are we all conspiracy theorists?

Really, why is it that the seeming majority of America don't see the problems with this administration as we do? (as discussed here and in other threads).
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Post by TomSpeed » Sep 11th 2003, 2:45 pm

The Gore campaign didn't also selectively target Florida counties for a recount?

The fact that the people who supposedly would be the best judges of Gore's fitness to be president, the people of Tennessee, didn't vote for him is telling.

Despite your feelings about whether the election was stolen or not, you should be looking at Congress to check the president. That's one of the reasons why we have three branches of government. Congress would bring the troops home very quickly by cutting off funds. I haven't heard many people suggest that Congress take that action. The members of Congress will hold their noses and vote yes.

Also, we must all keep in mind that politics and corruption go together. The Democrats have friends, just like Republicans.
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Post by fnordboy » Sep 11th 2003, 3:01 pm

andrewgd wrote:I have a question that has been bothering me for a while:

Why is it we see all of this that is wrong, yet the majority of American doesn't? Are we smarter and can realize these things better? Were most of America raised not to question? Are we all conspiracy theorists?

Really, why is it that the seeming majority of America don't see the problems with this administration as we do? (as discussed here and in other threads).
I wish I knew. It would make life a lot easier.

I think a lot of it has to do with the war on terrorism and the iraq issue that helps cloud people's judgement and opinions. People during times of war feel that it is inappropiate and bordering on treason to question what your government does. They also feel/fear that they will have a backlash from their peers (or worse the authorities) if they go against what is considered "the normal opinion". 9/11 really screwed things up. When something so horrific was done to us as that people get angry with whomever is perceived to be the cause of that issue. Bush and his admin played his cards carefully and for the most correctly and got away with far too much after 9/11 because people were to in shock and too outraged to question our government.

Also people are stupid and liked to hand fed everything. This morning on the radio it was said that from a recent poll 71% of americans polled believe that Saddam Hussein had a direct hand in what happened on 9/11! Can you believe that?! That just tells me people will believe anything that is told to them or implied to them. The problem lies in the number Sean Hannity like personalities on the air and on the TV. And anytime you question anything you are shooed away as unpatriotic and treasonistic. Or a left wing nutbag who is only questioning Bush because of your hatred for the Republicans and for Bush in particular.

So to answer your question. No, I don't know I guess.

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Post by Nothingman » Sep 11th 2003, 3:19 pm

Gore played his games as well, whether or not he would have been a better president doesn’t matter now. In terms of the election, Gore had enough votes to win with the counties who were recounted. The problem was a republican backed court shut down the recount before everything could be tallied saying that things had gone on long enough.

andrewgd wrote: I have a question that has been bothering me for a while:

Why is it we see all of this that is wrong, yet the majority of American doesn't? Are we smarter and can realize these things better? Were most of America raised not to question? Are we all conspiracy theorists?

Really, why is it that the seeming majority of America don't see the problems with this administration as we do? (as discussed here and in other threads).
I have wondered this too. Excellent question Andrew! I don’t think we are any smarter. Perhaps we are a little more introspective and that is why MSCL attracts us. Or maybe we are lucky to have found a forum in which to discuss things like this, and that broods questioning and consideration of other views on an issue. I would like to add a big thank you to all the people on this board whom I have had the pleasure to debate with, you guys make me think, and I respect all of your opinions. But back to the question, I think many of us would have these questioning views regardless of the forum, we may be better for discussing them, but I think the general ideas would still be there. So why are we the minority? I don’t know if this is really how it is, but I often feel like I’m one of the few people questioning things. Perhaps most people are, they are just not confident enough to speak out about it. I find politics difficult to discuss with most of my friends, their views are so absolute. They choose to either say “I don’t know” or believe that they are absolutely right. You can’t debate with people like that, part of debating something is being willing to question your own views. The whole point is not to “win” or to convince the other person to believe your views, but to find the best answer to the problem. The point is you have to be willing to end up in a different place than where you started. Most people I know have been programmed to believe that an argument must be won, by converting the other person, or bludgeoning them into submission until they no longer want to argue. Problem is neither of you are better off for the argument, so what was the point?

I don’t know if I’ve helped answer the question, but your not alone in wondering this.
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Post by JPP13 » Sep 11th 2003, 3:35 pm

I'm not afraid to say it. Most people are sheep, or worse. This site, by virtue of an intelligent TV show, attracted intelligent viewers.

Over on the sports forums I frequent, you'd think Bush cured cancer.

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Post by JPP13 » Sep 11th 2003, 3:45 pm

And Tom, you are again oversimplifying things by saying that Tennessee knew Gore best, and they voted against him, thats why he lost.

Why don't you put that in context? Why don't you cite the history of Republican Governors and Senators in Tenn? Why don't you explain how the state has shifted right over the last decade?

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Post by TomSpeed » Sep 11th 2003, 4:43 pm

You can hate the Party, but love the man. Reagan was a good example of this phenomenon. I read a few articles on how many people felt about Gore in Tennessee. Many people didn't like him. Anyway, there is a rule in politics -- take care of the backyard first. Gore didn't do that. He barely campaigned in Tennessee. He took the state for granted, or he wrote it off. It's ironic that he lost his own state. Bush campaigned there because he knew, or his advisers knew, that grabbing the state would be useful. Bush showed this understanding again in 2002 during the Congressional races. He didn't cede states.
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Post by grim4746 » Sep 11th 2003, 9:21 pm

Nothingman wrote: You can’t debate with people like that, part of debating something is being willing to question your own views. The whole point is not to “win” or to convince the other person to believe your views, but to find the best answer to the problem. The point is you have to be willing to end up in a different place than where you started. Most people I know have been programmed to believe that an argument must be won, by converting the other person, or bludgeoning them into submission until they no longer want to argue. Problem is neither of you are better off for the argument, so what was the point?
I agree that what you are saying applies to the majority of arguments, however at some point a person will believe that they have discussed and researched and thought enough that they have found "the best answer to the problem" and then arguing does take on the role of trying to convince the other party of your belief. Once a solution is found often the next step is to convince and inform others so that change can be initiated.

starbug wrote:
In real terms, they aren't. What costs more is the big fat dividends and salaries paid to directors and shareholders so they can sit on their yachts sipping martinis. Increase the tax on those dividends and salaries too (but not too much, I know that doesn't work) I say.
I agree inflated salaries and soaring shareholder profits have been placed above providing a living wage to workers in export processing zones. I would also say that the dramatic increase in advertising spending is a factor. It is of course more responsible for a business to give millions of dollars a year to celebrity endorsers than it is to somehow scrounge up the dough to pay workers the $1.20 a day (based on US funds for workers in China, living wage will vary from place to place, this is just an illustrative example) wage that would allow them to sustain themselves.


Tomspeed wrote:
I believe that the economy and Iraq will both be well in hand come next November. I don't agree with all of the things the current administration has done thus far, but I am in no way ashamed to be an American.
Tomspeed, I'm glad you are here with your right wing (if you don't mind the label) views to keep this discussion from being a one sided complaint session. Without you we might seem like a bunch of whiners. And i'm glad you aren't ashamed of being an American, after all "no one should hate...who they are" :turn-l:

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Post by starbug » Sep 12th 2003, 4:01 am

I would just like to add that whether or not increasing taxes would jump-start the economy shouldn't be the only consideration in a decision to raise taxes.

Raised taxes, sensibly spent, can have a massive impact on local services, facilities and general quality of life for the individuals within the USA who work behind the scenes for pittance.

I have said this before on another thread but I would gladly see my own pocket pinched slightly more (I mean, it's hardly going to mean anything of vital import for me - not being able to buy the latest DVD? missing one meal out at a restaurant occasionally?) if it meant that we could have a better community for everyone.

I also think it is an extremely interesting point that while the Bush government can fund their war on terror ad infinitum, they say they can't afford free health care for everyone.

Like Lance and JPP13, I am hopeful that the mistake of the last election will be corrected.

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Post by Nothingman » Sep 12th 2003, 10:04 am

grim4746 wrote:And i'm glad you aren't ashamed of being an American, after all "no one should hate...who they are"
Thanks, Mr. K. :wink: Maybe I should clarify. I am not ashamed to be me, or ashamed of America. I am ashamed of how the current gov’t, Bush and Congress, have tarnished America’s reputation. And I do not like how that reflects on me or any other citizen of the US in the eyes of the world.
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Post by andrewgd » Sep 12th 2003, 4:51 pm

Exactly. Damn proud to be an American. Thats why I'm so mad it's being led as poorly as it is. I saw how hurt we were at 9/11, and was proud of our men and women at ground zero.

It hurts so much to see that goodwill turned towards political and personal gain. To pervert it to fit previous agendas. THAT is sick. THAT is un-American.

How DARE they try and take away our freedoms to protect us. And call it the 'Patriot Act'.

How DARE they call those speaking out un-American. We're as f##king American as it GETS.
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Post by TomSpeed » Sep 12th 2003, 5:41 pm

I guess that I classify myself as a liberal-Republican. I don't think the government should be involved in too many social issues, but I recognize the need to have a government do more than a Libertarian wants it to do. I am also an optimist about most things that don't directly involve myself. I also think that anyone who can become the president, whether he's Clinton, Bush, or Carter, is usually a pretty smart person who can make good decisions most of the time. I'm very distressed by the fact that Pres. Bush seemed to rush the US into war based on many false assumptions and faulty information. I preferred his father's way of handling Iraq, containment. However, I think Bush II wants to be reelected, so he will shift enough on Iraq to make it a UN problem and will pump many dollars into the economy to get it humming. He doesn't want his father's fate to befall him.
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Patty: If Rayanne's not seeing you, and we're not seeing you, who is seeing you?
Graham: And how much of you?
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