Angela and Graham

General discussion about the nineteen episodes of "My So-Called Life". Note: Our episode guide can be found here.
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grim4746
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Post by grim4746 » Aug 19th 2003, 12:25 am

DarkApprentice wrote: In a sense, I think Jordan and Angela still had some kind of relationship "at that time", at least they were somewhat "involved". I mean, it's obvious that they were still drawn to eachother. Jordan was jealous of Corey and Angela was nowhere near "over" Jordan as she claimed.

Also the fact that Jordan and Rayanne were actually discussing Angela right before they "ummed" makes things even worse. I mean, how could they NOT be conscious of how their actions would affect a person they had just been discussing, seconds earlier?
I agree that Jordan and Rayanne could have foreseen that having sex with each other would hurt Angela but I think that Jordan didn't have any obligation to consider ANgela's feelings regarding who he slept with except in terms of common decency. Sleeping with your recent ex's (even when your relationship was vague at best) best friend is sleazy but it doesn't make you a cheater. I think that they had "some kind of relationship at that time". But I think what they had was an undefined general inter personal relationship based on mutual attraction and confusion but most importantly not being a committed relationship. Attraction and jealousy are indications that maybe something could develop between two people but does not form a good basis to assume that you can trust someone to be devoted to you. I haven't made up my mind yet if I think that JOrdan would cheat on Angela if they were in an acutal committed relationship, it's just so hard to imagine him making a committment.
imho of course

DarkApprentice

Post by DarkApprentice » Aug 19th 2003, 11:38 am

[grim4746] ...but I think that Jordan didn't have any obligation to consider ANgela's feelings regarding who he slept with except in terms of common decency
What about Jordan's obligations to his OWN feelings? I mean, it is pretty clear he is a LOT more into Angela than he will ever be for Rayanne. Rayanne was just available at the right time. IMHO, Jordan did not only betray Angela. More than anything he betrayed his own heart...
[grim4746] ...it's just so hard to imagine him making a committment.
[Excerpts from "In dreams begin responsibilities"]
Jordan : [With Patty in the kitchen at Chase's] It's like...you think you're safe, or something. 'Cause you can just...walk away anytime. Because you don't, like, need her. You don't need anyone. But the thing you didn't realize is...you're wrong.

This statement is the closest Jordan ever gets to a "committment", or at least some sort of admission of dependance...

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grim4746
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Post by grim4746 » Aug 19th 2003, 11:50 am

DarkApprentice wrote: What about Jordan's obligations to his OWN feelings? I mean, it is pretty clear he is a LOT more into Angela than he will ever be for Rayanne. Rayanne was just available at the right time. IMHO, Jordan did not only betray Angela. More than anything he betrayed his own heart...
This I totally agree with and that's very poetically put. Jordan did "[betray] his own heart". that's what is almost certain to happen when you don't listen to your heart.
I liked the Jordan quotation from "in dreams..." too. it didn't convince me that he could commit but it did remind me that he is somewhat likeable some of the time.

DarkApprentice

Post by DarkApprentice » Aug 20th 2003, 10:36 am

This I totally agree with and that's very poetically put
Thanks, I guess, esp. since english is not my native language...
I liked the Jordan quotation from "in dreams..." too. it didn't convince me that he could commit but it did remind me that he is somewhat likeable some of the time
Hmm...Why do I get the feeling you are not very fond of Jordan...? :D

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Post by Emeralduk » Aug 20th 2003, 12:30 pm

Sorry to go back to the start of this topic, but I had a few thoughts on Graham and Angela. Graham says things to Angela that makes her understand Jordan (or men in general) more. Eg. in ep #2 'Dancing in the Dark' during the spaghetti scene. Even this early on, Graham lets on that he's not as clueless as Angela may think. He knows things instinctively, being a man and her father. :Fade-color

*~Emerald~*
"Hello, you've reached the winter of our discontent."

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Post by grim4746 » Aug 21st 2003, 12:13 am

DarkApprentice wrote: Hmm...Why do I get the feeling you are not very fond of Jordan...? :D
Ya you caught me, I don't think very highly of Jordan. Well when I watch the episodes I develop a soft spot for him maybe from seeing him through Angela's eyes but as time passes after viewing the charm fades and I'm left thinking that he's a total jerk. Maybe I should catch a few episodes and lighten up.

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Post by grim4746 » Aug 21st 2003, 12:30 am

Emeralduk wrote: Sorry to go back to the start of this topic, but I had a few thoughts on Graham and Angela. Graham says things to Angela that makes her understand Jordan (or men in general) more. Eg. in ep #2 'Dancing in the Dark' during the spaghetti scene. Even this early on, Graham lets on that he's not as clueless as Angela may think. He knows things instinctively, being a man and her father. :Fade-color

*~Emerald~*
It's always nice to go back to the beginning of the topic, for me anyway. I'm up for rehashing all aspects of the show over and over from every angle. I'm a little dull a little obsessed and currently have a lot of free time as i've just moved and am still slowly building a new social life here. Anyway I think that what you said about Graham and Anglea is right on the mark. It made me think about what Graham is trying to do in his life in general. In ep #2 he calls off his attempted affair because he decided his family actually is too important to throw away. And he goes about making better decisions and fulfilling his role in the family. In the pilot Graham is awkward about Angelas growing up ("...or buy her a bigger towel") but in ep #2 he's trying to accept the enivitable and help ease Angela into more grown up situations by offering her advice and passing on knowledge. And he does so in a laid back supportive way that Patty, in spite of all of her intense family love is not able to do througout the series.

DarkApprentic

Post by DarkApprentic » Aug 21st 2003, 9:54 am

Not that this question has anything at all to do with the topic or MSCL, but I am just curios, grim4746, who the h**l is depicted below your nick? Is it you? (or am I just yet another imbecile norwegian...?)

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grim4746
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Post by grim4746 » Aug 21st 2003, 12:46 pm

DarkApprentic wrote:Not that this question has anything at all to do with the topic or MSCL, but I am just curios, grim4746, who the h**l is depicted below your nick? Is it you? (or am I just yet another imbecile norwegian...?)
It's a picture of Martin Short's sketch comedy character Ed Grimly he was also a cartoon character for a while. Fnordboy gave me the idea a few days ago it sort of ties in with my nickname and I think Marin Short is pretty funny most of the time. I'm sure you aren't alone I think plenty of people wouldn't recognize Ed Grimly.

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Post by Clockwork orange » Sep 2nd 2003, 2:31 pm

I have to say that I'm somewhat surprised that so many people compare Angela's relationship with Jordan to Patty's relationship with Graham.Sure there are some similarities,mainly from a male vs.female point of view, but Angela is not Patty and Jordan is certainly not Graham.

I know I'm off topic here but this is why I think Graham has a need to cheat on Patty.At the beggining of the show Graham is working for Patty,his wife is his boss and this is going on for years.That is extremely devastating for a man's ego.Also,they are spending to much time together every day and it is common knowledge that every person needs some space.He is also frustrated because he is not doing what he wants to do in life,he wants to be a chef but instead of that he prints stuff and has a controlling wife.Because whether you want to admit it or not Patty has serious control issues.So,that's why he wants to do something naughty( to sleep with a "tie girl" from ep.2),because then he could say to himself" I've done something that doesn't include Patty and man,it feels good".His problem has nothing to with sex( as we can see throughout the show he and Patty have no problem in that department)

Why Hallie?

That's an easy one.Hallie immmediately spots his cooking talents and she wants to start the restaurant business with him as a chef.That women does wonders for his poor,shattered male ego."My wife thinks I'm not even good enough for an intermediate cooking class and this loud chick thinks I can run my own restaurant".But the thing that poor bastard doesn't realize is that "a jewish girl from Texas" will bring him much more amount of s**t than his beloved, control- freak wife ever did.
"What we do in life,echoes in eternity."

Guest

Post by Guest » Sep 14th 2003, 1:34 pm

TomSpeed wrote:Fathers and daughters sometimes have a closer bond than mothers and daughters. You hear the saying "daddy's little girl" quite a bit. I think Angela is a "daddy's little girl." She loves her father. They are very close to each other. Patty means it when she says that she thinks Angela loves Graham more in "Pilot." Any man who wants to date Angela will be measured against Graham, see "In Dreams Begin Responsibilities" and Angela's dream. Patty certainly influences Angela, but Graham is closest to Angela's heart.
Yeah,Angela and graham have(or had at least)that special I agree that father daughter thing. Angela feels more close to Graham and she likes him more but that's because he's this really cool,easy-going dad who has a soft spot for her and who doesn't bug her like Patty does.
But I think that Patty's opinion and approval is what matters the most to Angela.That's way she argues with her constantly.Patty is the only person Angela even tries to justify herself and her actions.And of course because Patty sets rules and boundaries for Angela,she always turns out to be "the mean one"
Graham: The point is I shouldn't have allowed her to--

Patty: Why do I always have to be the mean one? Why can't you be the mean every once in awhile?


Graham: I can be!

Patty: But you never are. Look... I'm calm, okay? But you can't keep
letting.. I mean you know she loves you more ...more anyway ...
Guest
Also a few things about Patty and her issues.It's obvious that she likes to control people,she is also extremely critical at times and often assumes the worst
Agreed.Altough I like Patty, her desire to control Angela is what devastates their relationship.Angela is a great kid,she hardly ever gets into any trouble and Patty should really be grateful for that.I think it's hard for Angela to live up to Patty's high expectations.

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Post by Hunee » Oct 22nd 2003, 10:25 pm

I think in the pilot when she walks by him in the hallway wearing a towel and he starts to drop things is so funny... and then she is like my breats got in the way of our relationship... also I do think that Angela and Graham do share a special kind of bond because he does understand her... I think that when they show Graham listening to Angela and Jordan break up you can really tell that he understands and doesnt pass judgement on Angela but more accepts that she is growing up and can make the right decisions without him having to butt in all the time...
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