Discussion for Episode 19: In Dreams Begin Responsibilities

General discussion about the nineteen episodes of "My So-Called Life". Note: Our episode guide can be found here.
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Post by Guest » May 27th 2003, 7:21 am

Come to think about it ,Candygirl, you are soooo right. I just watched " The Substitute" again( I really don't like that ep that much but that's besides the point). She really did get all worked up about that censorship thing and she really shows that she is firm and decisive when it comes to defending her believes. I just thought ,you know, she's so quiet and non-confrontential, how can she be an activist?But one doesn't really have much to do with the other. I mean,you don't have to be "loud and obnoxious" to prove your point.So yeah, I think Angela has what it takes.And when I said that thing about her most likely being a writer, who's to say that she can't be both a writer and an activist?One does not exclude the other.She can be both.

On another notion,did anyone else feel sorry for Jordan in the hallway when he tried to explain that he didn't write the letter and Angela was all "I could hardly believe how beautiful it was" and he says" I don't wanna pretend like etc..." and when she says that she loved it, he has that look on his face that says:" Oh, great she loves it.You're in so much s*** if she finds out you didn't write it."

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Post by Megs » May 27th 2003, 9:04 am

A little tiny part of me always wondered if Jordan was about to confess in the hall before he saw that Angela bought it and it made her happy. "Look, I don't want to pretend..." and then Angela cut him off. What didn't he want to pretend? That he wrote the letter?
"I have all these dreams where I know exactly what to say. And you tell me, you know, that you forgive me."

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Post by Guest » May 27th 2003, 1:22 pm

Yeah, I don't completely get that myself. Why does he want to confess that he didn't write it? After all, he wanted her back and in order to do that, she had to think he wrote it.Or maybe he just wanted her to react, to talk to him and that's way he asked Brian to help him say the right thing.After all, Jordan is a lot of things but he is not a liar.So, he decides to tell her but she's so happy( he tries to tell her twice, first with " I don't wanna pretend like... and second " I'm glad you liked it but I.."). So, considering his character ( " You can think what you want about me, I never lied", Pressure) I think he would tell her, sooner or later.Maybe that's way he came to her house that night, you know, to set the record straight.

I always wondered about that,though.I mean,Angela obviously doesn't know he'll come over that night considering how long he had to wait for her to come home(after all, he had time for a sandwich, three big glasses of milk and a heart to heart with Patty), so I guess he decided to just show up and pick her up, right?I could be wrong.
What do you guys think? 8)

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Post by Guest » May 27th 2003, 1:36 pm

Megs wrote:A little tiny part of me always wondered if Jordan was about to confess in the hall before he saw that Angela bought it and it made her happy. "Look, I don't want to pretend..." and then Angela cut him off. What didn't he want to pretend? That he wrote the letter?
Another possibility is that he wanted to tell her that he "doesn't want to pretend like" nothing happened, maybe he wanted to tell her he's sorry in his own words. But I'm still inclined to think he wanted to tell her about the letter.

Another funny scene between him and Angela at the beginning of the ep, when he rambles on and on about tutoring and the band,he really looks kinda scared, not knowing what to say and stuff, so he just says the first thing that comes to his mind.(Been there, done that.A lot. :()

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Post by doodles444s » May 31st 2003, 2:24 am

I guess I'm just kinda agreeing with Tomspeed... when I watch the last one I get frustrated that there aren't any more episodes. Many of the issues are up in the air at the end... Angela leaves with Jordan (after looking at Brian in a new light), does Graham have an affair, where will Ricky end up living, etc. I guess a consolation is the fanfic. which I'll start reading now that I finished the series again (I got my DVDs about a week ago)
With Jordan, I feel that he was trying to explain the letter to Angela in that scene in the hallway.. and I sympathize with him. I understand not knowing what to say to someone and it must be even worse for him, with his problems with reading/writing . So I can see him wanting to say something that is so important and he just doesn't feel he knows the words to write. It's so important, that he doesn't want to skrew it up. With him, I see it as... someone wanting to paint a picture for their lover and can't paint, or want to cook a dinner for their lover and they can't cook.. he wants to express himself but doesn't have the tools to do it to the extent he wants. I see Angela's hurt.. but I also see her understanding. He is so confident with other things (getting girls numbers) and it is nice to see him care so much about apologizing.
For the title, I feel that each person is responsible for questioning their dreams and trying to understand them. It will help them know their heart and grow. Like Angela's about Jordan.. maybe she should recognize his importance to her and also realize the similar disappointment she had with Jordan and her dad. With Patty.. maybe she should question the dream about her ex. Not that she wants to be with them.. but maybe what the dream meant... maybe it pertains to the idea of her life being decided for her already cuz she made the choice (the idea from Weekend from Neil's gf).. Just threw out a couple of examples
Maybe not only sleeping dreams but also dreams for the future... once you have a dream for the future there are responsibilities that go along with achieving the dream... so that even dreams have to come down to earth and you can attain them. You have to take realistic steps in order to do so.
I'm sorry if I went off.. I guess it was probably to late to write a coherent post (its like 2:17am here). I just watched the final episode today and read your posts and felt like I needed to get ideas out..
Thanks
Sam

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Post by Megs » Jun 17th 2003, 11:59 am

This has always bothered me, and I just have to write it.

In this episode, Patty mentions that Tony Poole is now a car dealer in Harrisburg, PA, right? Then later she says he will "drop by" after work. Well, there is no way to drop by the suburbs of Pittsburgh from Harrisburg. They are on either ends of the state! Other PA natives, back me up.

There were other things that bothered me in this area, but I can't remember them now.
"I have all these dreams where I know exactly what to say. And you tell me, you know, that you forgive me."

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Post by Jody Barsch* » Jun 30th 2003, 2:08 pm

Okay, I have been reading the forum for years but have never posted anything before, so…

1st, Jordan knowing about Brian liking Angela: I do not think that he has any idea. When Jordan refers to males, he almost always uses "guy" but in the first scene of episode 19, talking to Angela he says "that kid, Brain" To Jordan Brian Krakow is not a peer of his age group, he is a kid. If Brian does not even rate gender with Jordan, Jordan could never conceive of him as a rival.

In Betrayal, Jordan is so uncomfortable about Corey, he asks Rayanne about him, and Jordan eeven changes his direction in the halls when he sees Corey walk by. Comparing Jordan's behavior around Corey and Brian tells us that he has no idea Brian likes Angela.

The question is, why can't he see it? While I argue (and many might disagree) Jordan is incredibly perceptive. (ask me if you need me to back that up)

Jordan is watching Angela, in almost every episode we see Jordan watching how she behaves and what she does, and he confronts her with, given very vaguely, in Life of Brain. Given that Jordan watches Angela and not the guys around her, he is judging rivals by her actions. Angela clearly wants Jordan to notice her with Corey, but as she herself does not like Brian, there is notheing there for Jordan to see.

Also, Jordan knows Brian to be the guy who can't ask a girl for her phone number. If Jordan did suspect Brian had feelings for Angela, I think he might be pretty confidant that Brian would never do anything about it.

Another thing about Jordan, is the paradoxof his self-confidence. Some times, Jordan is so assured of himself that he does not have to abide by any social constraints -- he can openly talk to Ricki in the halls, he can be open about having a tutor, he talks to the prettiest sophomore (the Zit), watching him back Angela against that fence at the dance clearly shows that he knows what he is doing (he is hot and has the right moves), he knows that when he gives people his eyes they will do what he wants (it works for guys and girls -- look at him trying to convince Brian to help him in Dreams), and in guns and gossip he appologizes to Angela in the halls.
The contradiction is that now he can't apologise to Angela. (there are other moments where he lacks confidence, such as needing his friend's approval before walking down the hall to Angela in Self Esteem)
I do think, however, that his confidance is high enough that he does not have to worry about other guys liking Angela, lets face it, I mena, really, who can compete with Jordan Catalano. Jordan's concern is who Angela likes. For so long, before Jordan knew or would recognise how he felt, he knew that Angela liked him (I think this is what originally catches his attention, just like in Sixteen Candles) He is clearly honestly upset that Angela likes Corey, and his life "sucks" when he knows that Angela hates him. Whether Brian likes Angela is not a concern of Jordan's because he is only interested in who she likes. And considering what he knows about Brian, and what he has seen in Angela's behavior with Brian through out the previous 18 episodes, Jordan has nothing to worry about when it comes to Brian Krakow.
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Post by Jody Barsch* » Jun 30th 2003, 2:51 pm

WHAT JORDAN IS BEGINNING TO SAY IN THE HALL:
I never thought that he was confessing, I just didn't see him doing it, and it doesn't sound like it to me.

People make excellent points for why they think he is, the best reason being the importance that Jordan puts on his honesty, but I still do not think he was going to confess.

I always thought that he did not want to pretend that nothing had happened, that yes, he was sorry, and he does regret it, but he doesn't want to spend the rest of his life aplogising for it, and feeling bad for it. It did happen, and Jordan does not wnat to have to pretend that it didn't.
But, I could be totally wrong about that.

Something in Jordan's behavior that tells me that getting Angela back is more important to him at this poin than his honesty, is that in the halls, when Angela tells him what he just said was "really amazing," Jordan answers with "I know." Now, I do not expect Jordan to confess there, it is WAY TOO soon after getting her to listen to him to confess that they aren't his words, like he says later, he was "so close," But when he says "I know," I don't get any sense that he feels uncomfortable taking the credit for what he said.

It is interesting though watching how uncomfortable he is with her in te halls. He could be uncomfortable with taking credit for the letter, which I am beginning to see as possible.

Or, he could simply be uncomfortable being in such an emotional domain: (1) he just sent Angela a very emotional note (which whether he wrote it or not, he gets major props for being brave enough to send it) and (2) he does not want beg for forgiveness, or get into a big discussion of why it happened, and how much he hurt her, and how he is sorry. He is sorry, but he doesn't want to drag that part of their conversation out, and we all know that talking with Angela can sometiimes be painful (ex. talking about sex, birth and death in Pressure). Jordan is clearly more confidant later when he picks her up after the "talk" as he tells her to come, never considering that she would choose not to. I think that this is one situation when Jordan will sacrifice his honesty. As he tells Patty, he needs her.

If you ask me, it is enough that he is honest about everything with Brian and Patty. In Self-Esteem Jordan did want people to know he was kissing Angela, and now he is telling Brian and Patty how much he is sorry and that he needs her. BIG step. Tino obviously knows something about this too because there is apparently a possibility that he will call for him at the Chases. True, Jordan did not write the words, but he is willing to let them speak for him, just as he lets Shakespeare speak for his thoughts/feelings in Self-Esteem. I think it is enough that he wants Angela to think he wrote the letter, because for so long he did not want to let on that he liked her.

What has always bothered me about this episode was the way he kisses her in the hall. His hand is barely holding her backpack, he just doesn't seem to want her as much as he has been leading us to believe. I would expect a better kiss.

FINAL COMMENT: I always wonder about Tino's reaction to Rayanne and Jordan sleeping together. They are both friends with Tino, but not with each other, what does Tino think about this? I like to think that Tino is a big fan of Angela and played a part in Jordan trying to get her back. Jordan and Tino are still friends at then end of 19, Rayanne's relationship with him is a little more shaky. Of course Tino has never been dependable, but did something change after the betrayal?
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Post by Guest » Jul 2nd 2003, 6:32 am

[quote="ALB"]What has always bothered me about this episode was the way he kisses her in the hall. His hand is barely holding her backpack, he just doesn't seem to want her as much as he has been leading us to believe. I would expect a better kiss.

No, I think he really wants her. Look at the way he looked at her before the kiss.Angela is the one that initiates the kiss because SHE has to forgive HIM, so he is letting her to make that choice.He is also being careful( the way he slowly inches his hand from her shoulder to her face) because he REALLY doesn't want to screw it up this time and given some of their previous ineractions( "I don't open so wide at the dentist") that is completely understandable.

I think they were making out during that entire day, because later Rickie asked her" Where were you all day, like I can't guess ":D

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Post by Clockwork orange » Oct 5th 2003, 7:49 am

Angela : Um, I had that dream again last night where I'm, like, screaming at him?

Sharon : Oh, I just remembered what I dreamed!
I just wanted to say that I hate when that happens.You know,when you start telling people about your dream and they immediately start talking about their dream :x
Jordan : So guess what? There's, like, a term for me. I'm a rudimentary reader with low literacy skills.

When Jordan says "there's like a term for me" Angela makes this eye flick thing which manages to convey "yeah, I've got a 'term' for you, too -- it starts with 'd' and ends in 'icksmack,' so f*** off perfectly"(televisionwithoutpity)
"What we do in life,echoes in eternity."

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Post by Hunee » Oct 22nd 2003, 9:50 pm

does anyone think that it was just the note that got Angela to talk to Jordan but when she tells him she loved it and he tells her his dream which was to hear her say that she forgives him... does anyone think that that might be the reason she goes with him at the end despite knowing that Brian wrote that letter? and may I say when Brian tells her that all that matters is if she is happy and then he says to the person to wrote that letter and he just looks at her... you can tell that he really does care for her!!! even if they can not be together all that matters is her happiness to him... so sweet
so make the best of this test, and dont ask why
its not a question, but a lesson learned in time its something unpredictable, but in the end is right i hope you had the time of your life

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Post by Natasha (candygirl) » Oct 23rd 2003, 3:04 am

I think that Angela leaves with Jordan for many reasons, the most important being that Jordan is her ultimate fantasy and even though he has betrayed her, she wants to believe that he can live up to her expectations (hence a connection of the episode title). Even though she knows that Brian wrote the letter, she still doesn't have the whole story and she has only has a minute amount of information about how it came to be written and signed in Jordan's hand. I think one of the reasons that she goes with Jordan is because she wants to hear what he has to say - whether he will tell her the truth, whether his words can live up to Brian's, whether he really is sorry, whether he can give her a reasonable explanation about why he slept with Rayanne and then had Brian write a letter of apology for him.
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Look, if this is weird for you, being tutored? I don't mind helping you a little longer.
You could have sex with me if you really want to help...I guess that's a "no"?

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Post by Hunee » Oct 23rd 2003, 4:08 am

hey... thats good enough for me...
so make the best of this test, and dont ask why
its not a question, but a lesson learned in time its something unpredictable, but in the end is right i hope you had the time of your life

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Post by sunshine11 » Jul 27th 2004, 10:51 am

I think they were making out during that entire day, because later Rickie asked her" Where were you all day, like I can't guess "
I noticed that too and I agree that Anela/Jordan were make up for lost time all day. :wink:




I watched this episode again and noticed the paralells made between Tony & Jordan and Graham & Brian(though I still can't picture Brian/Angela together). But I don't recall them ever mentioning that Graham was a geek in school like Brian. Just something I noticed.

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Post by TomSpeed » Jul 27th 2004, 12:21 pm

In one of the episodes, Graham and Patty are talking about Angela's troubles. Patty says that things could be worse. Graham says that she could be doing drugs and having sex in high school like they did. Patty replies that Graham didn't have sex in high school. The inference is that Patty did have sex in high school. She was more experienced. So, you can compare Graham to Brian.
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Patty: If Rayanne's not seeing you, and we're not seeing you, who is seeing you?
Graham: And how much of you?
Angela: Dad!
Graham: Oh, I'm sorry! I asked a question about your life, didn't I? Woah, what came over me?
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