Discussion for Episode 17: Betrayal

General discussion about the nineteen episodes of "My So-Called Life". Note: Our episode guide can be found here.
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Post by guest 420 » Jan 18th 2004, 3:43 pm

TomSpeed wrote:I think that if Angela slept with Jordan early in their relationship, Jordan would lose interest in her. The fact that she is not accessible attracts him. It's interesting that they become closer and form a more defined relationship after they officially break up.
yes, it is interesting.i think they just need(ed) to get to know one another better.
i also agree that he would lose interest because she would be just another girl he did it with.
however,i don't think Angela would be having sex any time soon at that point.
i actually don't see her having sex in highschool.

Suicidal&frustrated

Post by Suicidal&frustrated » Jan 18th 2004, 5:51 pm

TomSpeed wrote:
candygirl wrote:The conversation between Rayanne and Jordan at Louie's - "I'm drunk." "Yeah, me too." I don't doubt that they are drunk - they are - but me thinks they doth protest too much, which is pretty typical of teen drinkers (how many times have you heard the mating call, "I'm soooooo drunk"?). Although it does happen pretty spontaneously while they are drunk, they are both still aware. They don't just give in to their hormones and start humping on the hood of the car - they break off the kiss, open the door, look around self-consciously, and then climb into the car. The next day, Rayanne tells Jordan, "My head is, like, pounding," then gives him a guilty sideways glance as she says, "I was really out of it last night," to excuse what happened.
I think Rayanne finds Jordan to be attractive and desirable. She probably has kind of wanted Jordan for a long time. But she didn't act on her feelings because Angela liked Jordan. Now Angela says (although Rayanne doesn't totally believe her) that she is over Jordan. The fact that Rayanne and Jordan are drinking doesn't excuse what they do, but it probably helps make sleeping together easier. Clearly, given the actions you describe, they know what they are doing could be seen in bad light, but they do it anyway. The drinking becomes an easy scapegoat. Jordan and Rayanne are attracted to each other, and they choose to have sex. Angela's saying that she is over Jordan and Rayanne and Jordan's drinking are factors, but Rayanne and Jordan are in still in control.
So,I realize this is, like, an old post but I have nothing better to do with my time so I'm just gonna ask a few questions about this

1)You say that Rayanne wanted Jordan for a long time.So, why didn't she just sleep with him before she became friends with Angela? Because it's pretty obvious she and Jordan know each other from before they even knew Angela existed?

2) I don't really see what you're trying to say with them drinkin' and screwin'.Are you saying that they are just using drinking as an excuse because they were really attracted to each other and they would do it even if they weren't drunk ? Also you say that they are still in control, but you know, you have to have certain amount of control if you wanna do somebody,I know I was never able to perform when I was "dead" drunk.

Jordan looks like he had a couple of beers( three or four maybe) and Rayanne's flask was almost empty, so I would say they had just enough to feel horny.Mix that with loneliness and depression and you get sex in the backseat of the car?! Also, I think Catalano had some wild fantasy about screwing Angela, but hey we all think about someone else. :shock:

3)When Jordan's like " Let me ask you somethin', what do you think he wanted to ask Rayanne?

So, tell me what you think. :shock:

S&F

Post by S&F » Jan 21st 2004, 3:35 pm

Suicidal&frustrated wrote:
TomSpeed wrote:
candygirl wrote:The conversation between Rayanne and Jordan at Louie's - "I'm drunk." "Yeah, me too." I don't doubt that they are drunk - they are - but me thinks they doth protest too much, which is pretty typical of teen drinkers (how many times have you heard the mating call, "I'm soooooo drunk"?). Although it does happen pretty spontaneously while they are drunk, they are both still aware. They don't just give in to their hormones and start humping on the hood of the car - they break off the kiss, open the door, look around self-consciously, and then climb into the car. The next day, Rayanne tells Jordan, "My head is, like, pounding," then gives him a guilty sideways glance as she says, "I was really out of it last night," to excuse what happened.
I think Rayanne finds Jordan to be attractive and desirable. She probably has kind of wanted Jordan for a long time. But she didn't act on her feelings because Angela liked Jordan. Now Angela says (although Rayanne doesn't totally believe her) that she is over Jordan. The fact that Rayanne and Jordan are drinking doesn't excuse what they do, but it probably helps make sleeping together easier. Clearly, given the actions you describe, they know what they are doing could be seen in bad light, but they do it anyway. The drinking becomes an easy scapegoat. Jordan and Rayanne are attracted to each other, and they choose to have sex. Angela's saying that she is over Jordan and Rayanne and Jordan's drinking are factors, but Rayanne and Jordan are in still in control.
So,I realize this is, like, an old post but I have nothing better to do with my time so I'm just gonna ask a few questions about this

1)You say that Rayanne wanted Jordan for a long time.So, why didn't she just sleep with him before she became friends with Angela? Because it's pretty obvious she and Jordan know each other from before they even knew Angela existed?

2) I don't really see what you're trying to say with them drinkin' and screwin'.Are you saying that they are just using drinking as an excuse because they were really attracted to each other and they would do it even if they weren't drunk ? Also you say that they are still in control, but you know, you have to have certain amount of control if you wanna do somebody,I know I was never able to perform when I was "dead" drunk.

Jordan looks like he had a couple of beers( three or four maybe) and Rayanne's flask was almost empty, so I would say they had just enough to feel horny.Mix that with loneliness and depression and you get sex in the backseat of the car?! Also, I think Catalano had some wild fantasy about screwing Angela, but hey we all think about someone else. :shock:

3)When Jordan's like " Let me ask you somethin', what do you think he wanted to ask Rayanne?

So, tell me what you think. :shock:
I see that you people are completely ignoring me :lol: I guess you just need time to think which is completely cool. 8) Yeah right, who am I kidding.

Anyway this is my favourite episode and it just crossed my mind how there are a lot of scenes that are seemingly incomplete, which is terrific and gives you room to imagine how thing might have happened.

For example, did Brian actually taped the whole thing or did he just go home after he saw them enter the car?And how did the whole thing ended, anyway?Did they do it and then just gone their separate ways?Did Jordan drive her home, after the romantic evening?Or did they fall asleep in each other's arms?
Did you people notice that girl ( long hair, one braid, plaid shirt) at Loui's?
Is she coming on to Jordan or is that just my imagination?When Jordan asks if she likes Corey,how does he know his name?Yeah, okay he knew Angela's name in the Pilot but then again he didn't know Brian's name altough they conversed a couple of times?Did he ask around?That's it, at least for now.

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Post by Clockwork orange » Jan 24th 2004, 2:55 pm

S&F wrote;
And how did the whole thing ended, anyway?Did they do it and then just gone their separate ways?Did Jordan drive her home, after the romantic evening?Or did they fall asleep in each other's arms
Yeah, they spent a romantic candle light evening in the backseat of his car, talking about their future together. :lol:
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Post by Jody Barsch* » Aug 17th 2004, 3:57 pm

Did you people notice that girl ( long hair, one braid, plaid shirt) at Loui's? Is she coming on to Jordan or is that just my imagination?
That is exactly what I wanted to bring up! This girl always steals my attention in this scene. I'm not sure what it is about her, but something really annoys me. ... Anyway, every time I watch this episode, I wonder what it is she approaches Jordan about. I also wonder about who they are to each other? Is this the first time she's ever spoken to him, are they friends who run with the same crowd, or something in between? It looks to me like she walks away from Jordan without whatever she was after -- it kind of looks like she gives up on him. I have entertained several possible theories; one of the ones I keep coming back to is that she is flirting with him and that he rejects her. Of course, it could be something totally different, such as asking Jordan where Tino is, he tells her and she leaves to find him. It could really be any number of things. But, basically, what I've decided is, that if this small scene always succeeds in grabbing my attention and prompting me to hypothesize about it, then it's a waste for this moment not to have a story of its own, even if we have to make it up.

So, I'm going to try pretending that is Jody Barsch (because I have already decided that there is some connection (not necessarily romantic or sexual) between Jordan and Jody (and no, that decision has nothing to do with my screen name), and see where that leads to. There may have to be a little fudging since I assume that Rayanne and Jody have not made up, and therefore would probably being keenly aware of staying away from each other, and Rayanne is very near to this braid girl throughout the scene, but I think I'm going to give this a try...
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Post by svenkid » Oct 9th 2006, 3:30 am

one thing I noticed that was not brought up yet was the scene b/w brian and rickie where brian tells rickie what went down.

Rickie asks brian why he's telling him this and brian replies that "there's no one else around, and youre like the only one alive."

This stuck out to me. Is brian's responce b/c

1. he's giving that responce to spite rickie from the episode "on the wagon" when rickie was just "inviting everyone I saw", although I don't think brian was trying to be mean about it.

or

2. that rckie is the only one alive b/c of the friendship that is developing between them, and to brian rickie is in "color"

anyway, good ep. and that scene at the end, wow!
the episode so-called angels, does it to me every time!

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Post by Jody Barsch* » Oct 11th 2006, 10:20 pm

I'm not sure that Brian sees Rickie in COLOR, but I kind of think that at times, despite himself, he sees Jordan in color. I love when in Off the Wagon Rayanne runs off stage, and Jordan takes over singing -- it just seems to me that Brian is kind of irritated that instead of looking like a fool, Jordan's just that cool to take over, sing great, and pull it off. Brian just seems so: "damnit, he can do everything," but also seems mildly impressed. I don't know... I just really like the Brian and Jordan relationship.

I like the connection between what Rickie said and what Brian says -- I doubt it's that purposeful because brian seems so flustered in that scene ("Pick a sentence and go with it" :lol: ) but the connection's a good one!
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Re: Discussion for Episode 17: Betrayal

Post by MonnyUK2 » Oct 30th 2008, 11:14 am

Hey everybody,
Things have been a bit quiet here so I have just chosen a random episode to get some discussion going.lol! I think Cami and Dave will join in. This is one my favouite episodes because Angela finally sees Jordan for the person he is. Only joking. No I think that due to Rayanne and Jordan being such a massive part of Angela's world for the last 17 episodes it is a massive betrayal when they sleep together.

The relationship that Angela has with both Rayanne and Jordan has had its ups and downs. Rayanne with her drinking and Jordan breaking up with Angela. These are the two people she loves the most for different reasons but were always most likely to let her down. This is due to the unstable nature of their characters. Angela has found herself attracted them for different reasons but one thing Rayanne and Jordan have in common is that they are rebellious in their own way and this is a stage that Angela is going through too but nobody takes her seriously. Evidence of this is at the end of the episode where Angela comes dressed much like Rayanne and Corey and then Rayanne don't take her very seriously.

The fact that Brian catches them at it is brilliant because of his infatuatiuon with Angela owed to the fact that he doesn't get on well with Rayanne although I think they secretly like each other.lol! Jordan is the one who has Angela's affection but even there I think Brian has started to become attached to Jordan. I think he is genuinely sorry for what happens.

Despite that Brian goes to Sharon because he feels he can't go to Angela himself. Then we have the conversations that are never shown. First when Brian tells Sharon about the video and what he saw. Then when Sharon tells Angela about the what happened and then when Brian tells Ricky. We have the lead up to these conversations but they are never shown. I think that this was clever but also very irritating at the same time because you want to know what was said.

Also, when Angela goes to get the video off Brian, when she throws the tape back on the bed, this was an ideal time for him to score some points by conforting her and telling he was there for her. I think that could have been a really nice scene. So I call this episode the episode of the conversations that never were.lol!

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Re: Discussion for Episode 17: Betrayal

Post by Cami A. » Nov 3rd 2008, 8:12 am

Hey Monny,

I've been super busy...but I'll comment on this as soon as I get the time.
Betrayal is one of my favorites if not my favorite episode...especially love Sharon in this episode when she's trying to decide if she should tell Angela about what Brian told her...

I swear the censor her swearing at Rayanne in the bathroom in one scene because I always hear a click when she moves her mouth but she doesn't say anything--do you know what I'm talking about?

Cam
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Re: Discussion for Episode 17: Betrayal

Post by HeyDave » Nov 4th 2008, 2:50 pm

Hi Monny,

I’ve been away all weekend myself and just got a chance to try and take a crack at this. I have to say that this was a tough episode for me. Very heart wrenching and also bit difficult to watch. I feel that it was one of the most dramatic and well written though and one of my favorites.
I have to say that I think your being a little hard on Jordan. I’m a Brian fan myself also, but Jordan’s came a long way since he first met Angela. He knows what he did was wrong and feels bad about it, but like most teenage boys, can’t quite control himself. I’m not excusing him, but a lot of us have been there ourselves. And not proud of it, I might add.
It’s interesting that you have noted the ups and downs of Angela’s relationships with both Jordan and Rayanne. I’ve noticed that with all of her friends except the two old standbys from the neighborhood, Sharon and Brian. I wonder what the writers are trying to say with this? Perhaps that Angela, by stepping out of her shell and expanding her circle of friends to include people from different backgrounds that she has set herself up for a whole host of problems. What I mean by different backgrounds is dysfunctional families. She certainly has received a real education on what the world is really like outside of her dual parent household. It just seems to be an unfortunate fact that Rayanne and Jordan’s behavior may be also partially due to a dysfunctional upbringing and that Angela has to take the brunt of that.
I also agree that Brian is in a tough spot on this one. He’s in a no win scenario and bound to end up hurt whatever he does. I do think that Brian starts to develop a genuine liking for Jordan, even though he doesn’t’ want to. They learn to identify with each other through their tutoring sessions and Brian was just trying to do the right thing. He didn’t know how to handle the situation and turned to Sharon for guidance.
I also think that in a way Brian did comfort her and try to protect her by telling Angela not to look at the tape. She must have sensed that and his genuine concern because she did throw it back on the bed.

I just love the scenes with Angela and Rayanne in this episode too. They have to be some of the most heart wrenching and dramatic in the whole series. Rayanne’s whole dialog with Angela about losing a really good friend just kills me. The same with the whole scene on stage.

Well, better get going, I’m writing this over my lunch hour and need to get back to work.

Dave

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Re: Discussion for Episode 17: Betrayal

Post by Cami A. » Nov 4th 2008, 4:26 pm

Dave:

This is why you must stop by the "About Angela" thread. Monny and I tore the topic of Angela and her friendships apart, and I'd love to hear what you have to say about it all.

Monny and Dave:

My favorite scenes in Betrayal are the Brian Scenes and the Rayanne Scenes.

Gotta LOVE the Our Town Scene at the end of the episode--makes me cry every time! It looks like Angela wants to forgive Rayanne, but then she realizes she can't and has to walk off to get away from it all. It also seems like she feels a bit of truth in what Rayanne says to her about losing a good friend (she turns around bc she can't look at Rayanne--but she's got this look on her face that is so telling).

I made a fanvid that shows Angela pushing Rayanne and Jordan away after their betrayal:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLSjJfcnN0Q <--Check it out.

Also the scene where Brian rips up the tape as Jordan is approaching him. He gives him that speech about what can't be undone, but Jordan's just like--"I just wanted to ask if we could skip tutoring. Whats on the tape?" And Brian is all embarrassed as he stuffs it into his bag. And I love how the two of them were starting to bond. I really think it would be cute for them to continue to be friends--even though there is this big lump (Angela) between them.

I have more to say, but no time now. I'll hit you guys up later.
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Re: Discussion for Episode 17: Betrayal

Post by MonnyUK2 » Nov 5th 2008, 7:19 am

Cami and Dave,
I agree with both of you. The end scene of this episode is really upsetting. We have all fallen out with friends and family and I for one ca'nt hold a grudge but if my best friend had slept with my girlfriend I would be upset too. In relation to Sharon swearing then I will have to look at it agian Cam. I have never noticed it.

I think Brian did feel for Angela becuase he does care about her and doesn't want to see her upset except for when he is the one upsetting her. On the other hand I think some part of him would have been happy because Brian had to compete with Rayanne and Jordan for her time. Little did he know that he would be the one to bring them back together.

I agreed with Dave's analysis of how Angela went outside the box in terms of her friends. I think from episode 1, Sharon is the only close friend we see Angela with before Ricky and Rayanne. Brian had lost Sharon and Angela a long time before. Did Sharon and Angela have other friends? Did Brian have any nerdy friends or is he a complete loner? Although Rayanne does refer to him showing off to his nerdy friends in 'Halloween'.

As for Jordan then he did grow on me through out but I always saw him from Brian's point of view. The other guy who Angela is in love with. He was pretty cool and I alway love the part in 'Jordan Can't Read' when he sings 'Red'. On the whole it is a pretty sad state of affairs for all concerned. I guess I always wanted to see Brian get much closer to Angela in this episode but I guess it wasn't going to happen.

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Re: Discussion for Episode 17: Betrayal

Post by Cami A. » Nov 6th 2008, 3:18 am

Monny,

Yeah. take a look again for Sharon's swearing. I don't know if I'm imagining it, but it bugs me every time. Take a look at this clip. It's at 7:11...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vZ4GKDS ... re=related.
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Re: Discussion for Episode 17: Betrayal

Post by HeyDave » Nov 11th 2008, 1:35 pm

Hi Cami,

I will stop by the "About Angela" thread tonight and hop in the discussion. It's just been so crazy in my life the past couple weeks that I haven't had much time to get on line.

Dave

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