Discussion for Episode 17: Betrayal

General discussion about the nineteen episodes of "My So-Called Life". Note: Our episode guide can be found here.
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starbug
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Post by starbug » May 16th 2003, 10:57 am

I put Jordan's desire to sleep with Rayanne down to 3 things:
1. He is drunk.
2. He wants to sleep with someone (or maybe more specifically, Angela).
3. rayanne is the closest he can get to Angela without actually having Angela.

In his drunken state I don't think he bears any malice towards Angela. In fact in their conversation prior to the incident, he's reasonably complimentary about her.

rayanne sleeps with jordan because

1. She's drunk
2. she wants to sleep with someone - mainly for acceptance.
3. She wants to be Angela. fulfilling Angela's secret desires probably means she feels closer to actually being Angela...

I haven't seen this episode in a while and am sooooo far behind on my homework but from what I recall that's my view.

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Post by Natasha (candygirl) » May 16th 2003, 1:31 pm

Remember when,the next day he asks her if she got the part or not(sth. like that ), if he was so wasted how does he even remember what they talked about?
This I disagree with because it is possible to get drunk enough to lower your inhibitions without totally blacking out. After all, they both remember that they slept together, so why would they forget what they talked about beforehand?
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Post by TomSpeed » May 16th 2003, 2:56 pm

candygirl wrote:
Remember when,the next day he asks her if she got the part or not(sth. like that ), if he was so wasted how does he even remember what they talked about?
This I disagree with because it is possible to get drunk enough to lower your inhibitions without totally blacking out. After all, they both remember that they slept together, so why would they forget what they talked about beforehand?
I totally agree. I've been in compromising situations when drunk. However, I could still think. I also knew right from wrong. The alcohol definitely lowered my inhibitions. But I still knew that fooling around with a woman involved with another man was wrong. And, unfortunately, I could easily remember what was said and done by all parties involved.

I've also blacked out a few times. There's nothing scarier than losing time. It's also embarrassing when others tell you what you've done. What I did at those times didn't make too much sense. It doesn't really look like Jordan and Rayanne have reached the blackout point. Their conversation is too coherent.
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Patty: If Rayanne's not seeing you, and we're not seeing you, who is seeing you?
Graham: And how much of you?
Angela: Dad!
Graham: Oh, I'm sorry! I asked a question about your life, didn't I? Woah, what came over me?
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Post by TomSpeed » May 16th 2003, 4:03 pm

Jordan says something interesting to Rayanne -- "[I'm] not drunk enough." Does he mean that he isn't drunk enough to forget the fact that he lost Angela? Or does he mean that he's not drunk enough to not be aware of what he is doing? The fact that he looks around before leading Rayanne to the back seat makes me think that both truths apply. He's upset about losing Angela. And he still knows what he is doing. He's also lonely. And I think he appreciates Rayanne's attractiveness. After all, Angela used to be that weird girl who hung around with Rayanne.
TomSpeed

Patty: If Rayanne's not seeing you, and we're not seeing you, who is seeing you?
Graham: And how much of you?
Angela: Dad!
Graham: Oh, I'm sorry! I asked a question about your life, didn't I? Woah, what came over me?
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Post by Guest » May 19th 2003, 7:11 am

Tomspeed-I agree with you that he appreciates her attractivness, but even if she was ugly or something, he would still sleep with her at this point.
Common man, you know I'm right.

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Post by Guest » May 19th 2003, 7:15 am

Oh, yeah, I totally blacked out most of the times I was drunk, but agree with Candygirl and TomSpeed

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Post by Guest » May 19th 2003, 7:18 am

The fact that they discuss Angela before doing it is a bit repulsive if you ask me(but then again I'm a weird person)

whatever

Post by whatever » May 19th 2003, 7:49 am

[quote="TomSpeed"] [quote][quote]The fact that he looks around before leading Rayanne to the back seat makes me think that both truths apply.[/quote][/quote]

If he looked better he would see Brian lurking from the bushes with his camera
By the way that was me up there(three times)

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Post by Guest » May 20th 2003, 6:00 am

Why did Jordan approach Angela with the excuse of giving her pen back? And why did he suddenly become so principled when she said she didn't remember lending it to him, demanding it back?

Oh yeah the pen scene.When he calls out "Angela" by the tone of his voice it's like saying" I know I'm scum but please don't hate me"( I might be wrong, it's just a feeling)Did anyone else notice the way he nervously shakes his left leg while leaning against the door frame?
When he demands the pen back he probably wants to get a rise out of her, because she is turning into glacier mode again and he can't stand the silent treatment coming from her.

Also at Louie's, when Rayanne tells him that Angela didn't come and"it's like usual", he closes his eyes "like it hurts to look at things"(or hearing things anyway-I bet he thinks she's with Corey after hearing her little" I'm definately inerested, I'd love to, definately").Later, when he finally asks if "she likes that guy Corey or what", Rayanne gives him this look,like saying"Not that cool after all, huh Catalano?"
Man, I love this ep.
When Rayanne mopes how" she(Angela) didn't even hear my side" it makes me wanna punch her right in the face.

You know guys it's so tragic that we are making this" whole big deal over this thing that was like over in like three seconds"( Rayanne in" Pressure")

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Re: Jordan and Rayanne

Post by Guest » May 20th 2003, 1:07 pm

"The similarities between Jordan and Rayanne -- father issues, substance usage, obvious awareness of the possibilities of using their attractiveness to their advantage, and, perhaps reading too much into it, a sense of distance from a conventional middle-class sensibility -- are such that I find them a much more compelling option as a couple than Jordan and Angela. Jordan and Angela may make for better television/drama, but Jordan and Rayanne make more logical sense."

Oh yeah, Rayanne and Jordan as a couple-that makes so much sense.

Jordan:Hey bitch,got something to drink?

Rayanne:Hey get your own, you loser!

Jordan:So, you wanna shag?

Rayanne:Yeah, whatever

THREE SECONDS LATER

Rayanne:So,later?

Jordan:Yeah,whatever

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Post by lithiumkat » May 21st 2003, 1:05 am

I love the beginning of this episode, Angelas freedom dance is probably one of the scenes of mscl that have been the more memorable scenes that have stuck with me through the years, I can remember this sticking with me back when I watched the show on mtv before I had my dvds.

I love how she says it was like he was "surgically removed from my heart." I also think it's amazing how she seems so HAPPY at breakfast, or a meal in general, usually meals are almost like chores for Angela not something to be enjoyed, but here she seems to be actually enjoying breakfast, and you know whats strange, you NEVER see the cafeteria/lunchtime at Liberty, that is very odd, I just thought about that.

I think it's weird how the like Corey dream came like out of nowhere, I definitely think that this episode shows how Rayanne desperately wants to be Angela, I know that feeling, I am like Rayanne in that sense. With the acting it definitely shows how much Angela really means to Rayanne and confirms Ambers explanation about how "Rayanne thinks Angela is in color."

It cracks me up where Brian zooms the camera in on Sharons boobs and the girl's butts. ROFL, and you gotta love the *hate rays* Delia keeps shooting at Brian.

Angela is like totally taken aback when she realizes that even her closest friends think she is "sweet and innocent" and also Angela does the typical girl thing (at least it was for me) when you wanted to get over someone you try to like force yourself to LIKE someone ELSE and for her since she had that strange dream it was easy to try to MAKE herself like Corey instead of Jordan to confirm her being over Jordan. exemplified by her voiceover while she talks to him about the scenery while Jordan watches, obviously jealous.

And it's obvious that Rickie is not really comfortable with Angelas sudden interest in Corey. I agree that from the kitchen hygeine thread that meat/phone thing is kinda gross but I never noticed until someone else pointed it out.

I can't help but be amused at the "tough guy" scene between the dude and Brian now that I know that the two are really brothers irl. lol. Rayannes acting like the play is stupid and doesnt *really* care is obviously a front, it is clearly very important to her and well we see how quick she gives up on her resolution, and then runs into Jordan while he's drinking too, I think this is kind of another metaphor (mscl if full of them) of how dangerous her drinking is, the kind of trouble it can lead her too, and the damage it can cause and so on and so forth.

I still think, I mean I've been pretty drunk before, and I still think that this was really wrong of Rayanne, I agree with Rickie it's impossible to be on her side, but I do like Rickie partly understand it, I think it is very true that sleeping with Jordan and being with him is her way of pretending for one night that she IS Angela like acting.

I also think that sleeping with Rayanne is Jordan pretending he's with Angela, because Rayanne wants to be Angela and Jordan wants to be with Angela, so they are both pretending and really both using each other. In their minds they didn't *really* sleep with *each other* and I don't really believe that either of them meant to hurt Angela.

But once again Rayanne SHOULD HAVE known better because even when you are drunk, I mean you can still think even though it is all messed up, and Rayanne should have known that regardless of whether Ang and Jordan were broken up and Angela said she was over him that a) that wasn't true and b) even if she was over him really, it still isn't something you do to your best friend, unless enough time has passed that it doesnt matter anymore or unless she had talked to Angela and gotten the okay from her. I think that they both realize the next day how wrong what they did was, and that it shouldn't have happened.

And Brian and his damn obsession with Angela, of course he followed Jordan and Rayanne because they are Angelas friends and if he hadn't been so damn nosy...but it wouldn't have been right for that to have happened and for Angela to never have found out either.

When Angela and Corey are talking and Rickie shows up it is obvious that Rickie is so hungry for Corey's attention, just like Angela is/was with Jordan, how excited he gets, how his face just lights up. Rayanne OBVIOUSLY realizes she did something REALLY WRONG and feels guilty, because she avoids Angela knowing she did something wrong.

Ray and Jord confront each other pretty much long enough to clarify to each other that what they did, they didn't really mean, and that it was a mistake then they skuttle away from each other very quickly and proceed to pretty much ignore each other.

I think when Hallie shows up at the Chase household and Graham calls they are still obviously highschool/flirtyish with each other on the phone right in front of Camille and Patty, Camille obviously picks this up instantly. And I always wondered what EXACTLY Hallie means when she says "baby clothes....*sigh*....break my heart!" That has always puzzled me.

I think Patty and Angela are a lot alike in that they are naive purposely, they block out things they don't WANT to believe, like how Patty said how "sweet" Hallie was.

Delia like *hates* Brian even more when he asks her to leave to explain the "problem" with the video to Sharon. Then Sharon does not know whether she should tell Angela about what happened. And then while they are loudly talking about it in the bathroom there is Angela right there!

I LOVE LOVE the scene where Brian is rambling and then he keeps stuttering and stuff and Rickie gets impatient and says "BRIAN, could you like, pick a sentence and go with it?!?" LMAO.

again about the choosing to block things out, Angela does not believe Sharon, but we know deep down she does, and she wants Rickie to confirm that it is not true, but he tells her it is, and she is just crushed.

Brian all embarrassed and scrambling to get a shirt ROFL, that is so adorable, Brian is so cute in an obviously dorky way, I love dorks lmao. Then Angela has the audacity to say it was partly Brians fault....like he MADE them do it or something. But he is being a true friend when he tells her she shouldnt see it, it will only make her feel worse.

I know this has been discussed before but Angela purposely pairs up with Rayanne, because the girl stops to tie her shoe and screws up the line BEFORE angela gets in front of the other girl and AFTER that then you hear the pe teacher say Chase/Graff, so I think she WANTED Rayanne to have to face her.

And Rayanne is SOO sure that Sharon is like haha I told you, about what happened, adn Sharon stands firm in the fact that she is not happy about the situation at all because she cares a lot for Angela and it pains her to see Angela hurt.

I can't believe Hallie brings chinese takeout to another food place, If I was Graham I would be embarrassed to be seen with her then, especially after she LOUDLY proclaims "you think i'd eat the food here" and then recieved a dirty look from an employee. She has like NO common decency sometimes!

I do love where she syas "everytime we have a conversation it's like the first one, I can't make any damn headway" she has a point, Graham is kinda distant/aloof whatever. LOL that cracks me up, Patty even has that problem sometimes.

It is surprising that Patty is understanding of Rayanne, and I think it's kind of a good thing, I think that Patty being somewhat understanding of Rayannes side will help her and Angela patch things up later. My personal opinion since we will never know what would have ACTUALLY happened. That KILLS me.

Rayanne comes to the realization "I've never really hurt somebody this bad before" I don't think she's ever had a truly good friend or anything the way she does with Angela so she is kind of clueless on some of the unsaid "best friend rules" or something.

Brian so like paranoid thinking Jordan was gonna beat him up or something and flips out with the tape and Jordan had no clue lol. And then Brian is all nervous all over again, when Jordan asks what was on the tape.

Rickie has a great point "what exact reaction did you expect?" I mean I will admit if I was Angela I wouldn't exactly want to hear her side either at this point, Delias shock at Rickie just walking in the girls room cracks me up. And Angela can't believe that Rayanne and Jordan would do that, it goes back to the being innocent thing and how she says she could kill them both "with her hands" that always cracks me up. I would be like her, I remember hiding in bathrooms at middle school dances crying.

I understand her I am a lot like her, very non confrontational, that is so me! And at least Rickie is pretty understanding. But she needs to listen when Rickie says "you cant let their stupid actions control you, you have to live your own life" That is one of the more profound words of wisdom. "two can play at that game, they think i'm some innocent little twit that they can treat however they want, well they're wrong" That also confirms that Angela is not NEARLY as innocent as everyone thinks and that a lot of it is put on, to allow her to be as nonconfrontational as she is and avoid a lot of situation.

Rayanne realizes how truly alone her actions have made her when she is excited about making the part in the play and she instincively hollers at Angela in excitement, only to realize, at this point, Angela is no longer her friend.

I notice Patty acts like she is clueless on whats going on w/ Ray and Ang when asked by Camille and quickly changes the subject, I'm unclear why EXACTLY she does this, whether it's to avoid the thoughts/subject of what we later find out that Patty did the same thing to Camille in the past as what Rayanne did to Angela or whether she just did it out of respect for Rayanne. And I think that the statement Camille makes about the anger/passion/affair thing only confirms the fact that there is CAUSE FOR WORRY with Hallie/Graham.

The scene with Jordan and Angela and the pen is god, that is so stupid...so HIGH SCHOOl because its so petty, I love that, if its not yours give it back, NO then she tosses it lol just out of spite.

Everyone freaks out when Angela shows up all done up with Rayanneesque braids and the dark lipstick and prominent makeup which is so unusual for her, and then asking to drink. It's like the tables have turned see, Angela and Rayanne wish to be each other, Angela not so innocent and Rayanne more "normal" like Angela, It obviously breaks Rayannes heart when Angela says "look, i dont care anymore so just go away" but I agree with what Rayanne says about how Angela lost nothing and she lost everything. Rayanne at this point realizes she destroyed the one thing that was most important with her, everything.

And Corey shows class at pushing away Angelas attempts to be like Rayanne, with the comeons and makes me think of Angela pushing Jordan off---YOU HAVE TO WORK UP TO THAT YOU KNOW? And I have a lot of Respect for Rickie for the way he handles Angelas play for Corey. and then Angela realizes that she IS just like Rayanne and didn't realize but Rickie is more mature than either of the two girls IMHO and so he doesnt react so severly as Angela does.

Graham freaks out thinking that Angela slept with Jordan lol. OPEN MOUTH insert FOOT when he makes the comment about what kind of insensitive self centered, adn then Patty confesses her story. LOL Grahm had no idea that Patty did that. I also think that this scene alludes to Rayanne and Angela making up later, when Patty says, eventually she found it in her heart to forgive me.

Of course Angela is not going to make up with her right away, but that does make me think that the writers had full intention to make them patch things up in a later episode. But sticking with making things real ya know irl you don't make up with someone over something that is that big of a deal right away, ya know it takes time.

It cracks me up when Patty flushes the toilet while Graham is in the shower.

One of the most touching scenes in the series for me is where Angela and Rayanne are reading from the play, the absolute raw, intense, emotion there is just, heartwrenching. that scene also leads me to believe that they would have/will eventually have made up. Also I think its important well "emily is dead, the life she had is over, she is just now realizing that that is gone adn she never really appreciated what she had, just imagine what that must feel like." (or something similar) That is the literal truth too, i mean sort of...Rayanne is dead she feels dead, the life she had is over, the relationship she had with angela is over, and she is just now realizing that its gone and what happened and how she didnt appreciate what she had til it was gone. ya know..(insert cheesy cinderella song) dont know what you got...til its goooonnee. lol.

obviously its not just the acting or the plot of the play that has angela and rayanne so broken up. obviously they are realizing, they are forced to face one another here, and they realize how much they miss each other..."thats all human beings are...just blind people" i think the lines in the play are very important too, rayanne was blind, but now that she is "dead" she can see. in hindsight. The end of this episode always tears me up. It is so intensely heartwrenchingly emotional.
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Post by Guest » May 21st 2003, 2:40 am

[quote="lithiumkat"]Brian so like paranoid thinking Jordan was gonna beat him up or something and flips out with the tape and Jordan had no clue lol. And then Brian is all nervous all over again, when Jordan asks what was on the tape.
Yeah, that cracks me up each time,but Jordan did look all serious,I remember the first time I've seen that I didn't think he's gonna beat him but I thought he's gonna yell at him or something,but Jordan is clueless as usual

. And Angela can't believe that Rayanne and Jordan would do that, it goes back to the being innocent thing and how she says she could kill them both "with her hands" that always cracks me up. I would be like her, I remember hiding in bathrooms at middle school dances crying.

I understand her I am a lot like her, very non confrontational, that is so me! And at least Rickie is pretty understanding. But she needs to listen when Rickie says "you cant let their stupid actions control you, you have to live your own life" That is one of the more profound words of wisdom. "two can play at that game, they think i'm some innocent little twit that they can treat however they want, well they're wrong" That also confirms that Angela is not NEARLY as innocent as everyone thinks and that a lot of it is put on, to allow her to be as nonconfrontational as she is and avoid a lot of situation.
No, I think she IS pretty innocent and that scene confirms it.You know when she says "I can't talk about them like a them", she thinks that just because they had sex they are going to be a couple or something.She thinks that sex always has to mean something which is ,if you ask me ,such an innocent thing to think.And when she says"they think I'm some innocent twit.....",she is just frustrated by their actions and wants to punish them for it, I don't think she would go through with it though, even if Corey was willing

And Corey shows class at pushing away Angelas attempts to be like Rayanne, with the comeons and makes me think of Angela pushing Jordan off---YOU HAVE TO WORK UP TO THAT YOU KNOW?

Yeah,Corey does show class, but even if he did want something with Angela, clearly the girl was having a psychotic episode so he probably didn't wanna take advantage of that fact.
And here,I think she mostly wanted to get back at Jordan by sleeping with some other guy,I think she knows how much he cares about her and how much it would hurt him.She also wants to prove that she is not innocent, but you can't be what you're not.Rayanne can't be innocent( with all the drinking and drugging and screwing) and Angela can't be Rayanne because she's too level headed and she's way too introspective and it's just against her character.I don't know why Angela considers her innocence to be a bad thing, you wouldn't believe how many guys fall for that.


Oh yeah about Rickie and Corey.Rickie reacts more maturely because he knows he doesn't have any chance with Corey-the guy is obviously straight and I would disagree that Angela is like Rayanne here.I don't think Angela realizes how Rickie feels ( and after all she didn't sleep with Corey) while Rayanne and Jordan, oh god I don't think I have to explain

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Post by lithiumkat » May 21st 2003, 5:32 am

Well...actually Angela knew about Rickies thing for Corey about as much as Rayanne knew about Angelas thing for Jordan.

Because remember the world happiness dance thing, when Rickie was all obsessive over Corey, Angela knew that, and then earlier in the episode he said she wasn't the only one about the erotic Corey dream, and then not only that, but just as Angela told Ray and Rickie that she was over Jordan, after Rickie brings up the thing about how Ang going after Corey makes him feel she says "I thought you once told me you were over him"

Just like how Angela told Rayanne she was over Jordan....so yeah, IMHO I think she knew. I mean at least to the point where it made it about the same thing as Rayanne. And sure she didn't sleep with him, but she all but attacked him trying to g kiss him and stuff.

nd if you think about it, since Rickie and Angela are both virgins, that's about as close to being the same for them as the thing with Rayanne, since Angela was all up on him trying to kiss him and all. And yeah I must add, I totally feel that way like all the time, how angela says "Is there like something seriously wrong with me???" I've asked people that on numerous occasions.
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Post by Megs » May 21st 2003, 9:10 am

lithiumkat wrote: I also think it's amazing how she seems so HAPPY at breakfast, or a meal in general, usually meals are almost like chores for Angela not something to be enjoyed, but here she seems to be actually enjoying breakfast, and you know whats strange, you NEVER see the cafeteria/lunchtime at Liberty, that is very odd, I just thought about that.
They show it briefly in the pilot. Angela comes out of the lunch line with her tray, and Brian gets his tray slammed into him by a bully.
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Post by lithiumkat » May 21st 2003, 10:08 am

Megs wrote:
lithiumkat wrote: I also think it's amazing how she seems so HAPPY at breakfast, or a meal in general, usually meals are almost like chores for Angela not something to be enjoyed, but here she seems to be actually enjoying breakfast, and you know whats strange, you NEVER see the cafeteria/lunchtime at Liberty, that is very odd, I just thought about that.
They show it briefly in the pilot. Angela comes out of the lunch line with her tray, and Brian gets his tray slammed into him by a bully.
AHHHH *slaps forehead* you are right, I forgot all about that, yes, I remember poor Brian being pushed and having his tray all smooshed into him. I remember that really ticking me off. Poor guy has enough problems without people being outright mean to him. It's funny though that they never really show it much more than that because of how big a part of school-life that lunchtime really is for most people/schools.

Also since it's like one of the few like freely social times during school. But it probably has to do with the whole weird food/eating thing...

and perhaps Angela skips lunch a lot she probably loathes school/cafeteria lunch what makes me think that is her comment "when you think about eating what it is actually, that people do it like in public." or something to that effect, gives me the idea that she probably does not enjoy eating at a public place, it probably makes her uncomfortable having that outlook on it.
"people always say how you should be yourself, like yourself is this definite thing...like a toaster or something, like you can know what it is even."

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