Buffy the Vampire Slayer

MSCL may be gone from the tv screen, but there are lots of good (and bad) new productions airing each week. Talk with other MSCL fans about your favorite shows or the shows you hate. Of course you can also discuss TV show DVD releases here.
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lance
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wonder woman

Post by lance » May 29th 2003, 12:52 pm

Sarah Michelle Geller as Wonder Woman?


I don't know about that. I always thought of Wonder Woman as being taller.

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Lance Man

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Natasha (candygirl)
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Post by Natasha (candygirl) » May 29th 2003, 12:56 pm

And let's be honest - Lynda Carter set a certain standard that SMG can't measure up to, even if she wears a black wig!
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You could have sex with me if you really want to help...I guess that's a "no"?

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Post by lance » May 29th 2003, 2:55 pm

candygirl wrote:And let's be honest - Lynda Carter set a certain standard that SMG can't measure up to, even if she wears a black wig!
And lifts!

:D

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Lance Man

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Post by JPP13 » May 29th 2003, 11:24 pm

I'm still processing the finale, and that it's over. Though, as time passes I think I will believe the show ended 2 years ago.

That said, I enjoyed the ending, probably more because I refused to nit pick at it (and trust me, there were flaws aplenty) and just go with the flow.

It would ahve been impossible to tie all the loose ends from this season together, but I did like what the ending meant - Buffy got her wish (at least from the first 5 seasons), to just be a normal girl (woman). She is not longer the (Chosen) One.

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Post by lance » May 30th 2003, 9:21 am

JPP13 wrote:I'm still processing the finale, and that it's over. Though, as time passes I think I will believe the show ended 2 years ago.

That said, I enjoyed the ending, probably more because I refused to nit pick at it (and trust me, there were flaws aplenty) and just go with the flow.

It would ahve been impossible to tie all the loose ends from this season together, but I did like what the ending meant - Buffy got her wish (at least from the first 5 seasons), to just be a normal girl (woman). She is not longer the (Chosen) One.
Jpp13,

I think you hit the nail on the head. That line certainly rounds out the story arc nicely. In the pilot of the series all Buffy wanted to be was a normal girl and at the end she finally got her wish.

:D

The other thread that didn't get wrapped up was what happend to Ethan Rain, Giles nemesis. Still in prison with Feds after Season 4? Also what happened to Amy's mother. Last we say she was trapped in the cheerleader trophy at the old High School. Was she killed in the explosion? Is she still trapped in the trophy at some landfill?

What about the mutant praying mantis eggs left at the old High School from First Season? Were they destroyed in the explosion?

They are probably more that I am not thinking of at the moment.

Best,

Lance Man

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Post by Natasha (candygirl) » May 31st 2003, 2:01 am

There are so many loose ends that I won't let myself start (including who were the dead people Giles had to talk to in Chosen and why didn't Dawn's role as the key play any part of S6-7?). Instead, I will share more Buffy news:
from slayage.com

The Fallout
by Daniel Erenberg

So Buffy The Vampire Slayer has had its glorious ending, and now the summer rerun season has begun. So now what? Where are our favorite actors and writers heading?

Well, the first answer that comes to mind is Angel. That's right. If you're a Buffy fan yet to jump onto the Angel bandwagon, now is the time. With the loss of Buffy, next year Angel will take its place as my favorite show. A great show in its own right, Angel has at times equaled Buffy's brilliance in the past four years. This year, as Mutant Enemy's foremost project, Angel is bound to blossom as the best show on TV.

In addition to all of that, look for some of Mutant Enemy's finest writers and actors to join the Angel ranks. For instance, fan favorite James Marsters is signed for a full 22-episode season reprising his role as badass-with-a-heart-of-gold Spike, even despite his apparent death in "Chosen", Buffy's series finale.

On the writing side of things, Joss Whedon Himself has decided to take a renewed interest in Angel and may even write and direct an episode or two. Also, the neo-Joss, Drew Goddard has decided to join the writing staff of Angel for season five, something that excites me to no end, as some of the best Buffy episodes of season seven ("Selfless", "Conversations With Dead People", "Lies My Parents Told Me") were penned by his masterful hand.

Also, the fantastic David Greenwalt, who left to create the intriguing (and swiftly cancelled) Miracles at the end of season three of Angel, is set to return for season five in a very heavy role.

One great Buffy writer that is not expected to join the Angel staff is Jane Espenson, who wrote wonderful stuff like "Earshot", "A New Man", "After Life", and "Storyteller". Espenson is joining the writing staff of Amy Palladino's wonderful series Gilmore Girls, a show that I have been taping during Buffy for the past two years. Espenson's quirky style and sophisticated punch lines should be a perfect fit for the equally quirky and sophisticated Gilmore Girls.

Another fantastic writer that is heading off to work on a non-Mutant Enemy series is Marti Noxon (she of "Wild At Heart", "New Moon Rising", "The Prom", and "Villains"), who is set to exec-produce the brand new series Still Life. Still Life, which sounds awfully similar to Alice Sebold's novel The Lovely Bones, is about a deceased member of a family, looking back on the family from the afterlife. It sounds interesting, and where Marti Noxon goes, so goes my nation, so I will be watching Still Life when it debuts mid-season.

Eliza Dushku, who we all know as Faith, who can be seen this summer in the horror flick Wrong Turn, is also working on a pilot called Tru Calling, which sounds action-packed. It's on in a pretty rough timeslot (Thursday's at Eight), but I'm hoping it does well simply because Ms. Dushku is really a very good actress and I'd like to see her do well.

And what of the regulars?

Sarah Michelle Gellar, our heroine, and the best television actress since Mary Tyler Moore, will be squandering her considerable talents this summer filming Scooby Doo Too: Monsters Unleashed opposite a CGI dog in front of a blue screen. How fun. Seriously, I can't imagine a worse film to kick off Ms. Gellar's post-television film career. After that, though, things look to get better. She's doing a romantic comedy very aptly titled Romantic Comedy that should be out in 2004 and is already getting some very good buzz. I look forward to that one, but I refuse to subject myself to another Scooby movie just to see one of my favorite actresses.

As for Alyson Hannigan, she'll be reprising her role as band-geek-with-a-heart-of-gold Michelle in this summers third helping of American Pie: American Wedding. As I write this, I'm beginning to become upset at how one-dimensional these characters are. I'm used to seeing these actors play such nuanced, emotional characters. Depression.

Anthony Stewart Head is becoming the proverbial gentleman of leisure, though he will be working on BBC television and is also due to film a small part in a film later this year.

Michelle Trachtenberg is perhaps the busiest of any of the Buffy actors. She'll be working this year both on the big screen and the small screen. She's filming a teen comedy this summer called "The Ugly Americans" in which she has a major role. It doesn't sound too good, but I'm glad little Dawnie is getting in some good work. She'll also continue hosting "Truth Or Scare" for the DiscoveryKids network. Fantastic (with drawling sarcastic voice).

Nicky Brendon, one of my personal favorites, has signed on to join the cast of a new FOX comedy. I suppose I'll watch it, but I haven't heard much about it.

Emma Caulfield is taking some time off from acting, but you'll see her soon because her movie Darkness Falls made some big bank.

It doesn't look good people. Your best bet is to watch Angel and be a maniacal fan like that show deserves. Other than that, watch your DVD's, watch your FX reruns, give Tru Calling a shot, check out Still Life, and look back fondly on Buffy, because it doesn't get any better than that.
Natasha aka candygirl :: MSCL.com

Look, if this is weird for you, being tutored? I don't mind helping you a little longer.
You could have sex with me if you really want to help...I guess that's a "no"?

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Post by JPP13 » May 31st 2003, 7:50 am

Some thoughts on that story.

-At least Marti Noxon is leaving. 3 years too late.

- Regarding Spike, there is an article at Salon.com entitiled "Why Spike Ruined Buffy the Vampire Slayer" which sums up my feelings there.

- To call SMG the best TV actress since MTM is ludicrous. She wasn't even the best actress on her own show. She did well in handling what was at one time the best role on TV. Check out http://www.fametracker.com . On the menu on the left click Fame Audit then click on SMG for an interesting take on Sarah.


And candy. you are right. I could list loose ends until this server explodes. Like what was with the ghosts and the talisman in the bathroom in episode 1? And Dawn being groomed to fight? That lasted 2 episodes. Dawn's new scooby-lite friends lasted 1 episode. What about that eye-thing, and the "disruption of the slayer line"? And Joyce telling Dawn that in the end Buffy won't choose you? arrgh, I could go on all day.

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Post by Natasha (candygirl) » May 31st 2003, 4:54 pm

FYI - I found that salon article to be ludicrous and not just because I happen to like Spike as a character. The Fonzie comparison was a big tip-off that the author is demented!

I agree that SMG gets too much credit for BtVS. Yes she played the title character, and yes she had some great moments on the show - but to say that she was the BEST actress on the show? Perhaps this is the wrong strategy, but I judge someone's acting abilities by comparing different performances. It's easy to say that someone was great in one project, but it's entirely possible that the one great project gave this person the chance to play himself/herself, right? So I look at other projects to see if the actor acts the exact same way. Case in point - Cruel Intentions. She acted exactly the same way, and even worse, was so obviously soap opera acting that I was embarrassed to sit through the movie. It's one thing to use the same mannerisms, but when you can imagine cutting the actor from the scene of one crappy project and pasting them into a different one without any problems (besides plot or possibly costuming), what does that say about the acting ability portrayed? As a famous drama critic once said, "She displays a range from A to B."
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Post by JPP13 » May 31st 2003, 5:13 pm

I'm with you (well, except on the Spike thing :) ). I think that the author is confusing the role of Buffy the Vampire slayer, with SMG. I think one could make a damn fine argument that the Role of Buffy is the best female role since MTM. (though we shouldn't leave out a certain Angela Chase).

To further that, I just do not see how anyone could objectively say that Sarah is a better TV actress than say Claire Danes. Claire was never overshadowed by the brilliant actors she worked with. But SMG arguably played second fiddle whenever Eliza or several others shared screen time.

And lest I be misunderstood, I stand by my beliefs that BtVS is an all-time great TV show

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Post by Natasha (candygirl) » May 31st 2003, 5:34 pm

I agree - the difference is that MSCL had a wonderful ensemble cast where all of the actors held their own. Although AJ, Wilson, et al were brilliant in their own rights, they never overshadowed Claire. Rather than a criticism of Claire's ability, this is meant to be a compliment to the casting director and the entire cast - they all performed at a very high level.

BtVS, on the other hand, also had an excellent cast but despite Sarah's great moments (e.g. The Body), there were many MANY times when the other cast members/guest stars stole the scenes. I don't mean that in a chewing on the scenery kind of way - they simply blew her away with their charisma, range, and ability.

I think that Buffy may be one of the greatest roles in recent history, and SMG had the opportunity to run with it. Sometimes she rose to that challenge, while other times she was simply "going through the motions." :wink: Angela was an incredible character as well, and if the show had run for seven years as Buffy did, I have no doubt that Angela would have been right up there as one of the best roles ever.

To be fair though, compare S1 Buffy with S1 Angela. Given how much range and depth that the writers gave Claire in only 19 episodes, she blows S1 Buffy right out of the water.

BTW, the quote I referenced in my previous post is: "She ran the whole gamut of emotions from A to B." Interestingly, that was Dorothy Parker's critique of Katharine Hepburn! (please let's not bother to compare SMG to Katharine Hepburn)
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Post by JPP13 » May 31st 2003, 6:01 pm

MSCL, if one considers only 1 season versus the first season of any show, is IMO the greatest TV show I ever saw. (which I realize is a little redundant BTW).

No question, season 1 of Buffy was basically the actors and the writers trying to put their collective hands around the essence of a great idea. That did not truly happen until season 2. MSCL never had that luxury. 1 brilliant season. Ballgame. If Buffy had ended after its first year, I sorta doubt that there'd be critical adulation heaped upon it.

Now, can I fairly compare the bulk of the work of Buffy vs. what we have of MSCL? How about the best season of Buffy (for me season 2) vs. MSCL? I'd still be hard pressed to give the nod to Buffy. MSCL was just too good.

BTW, knowing your love of Spike, I'd stay off the Televisionwithoutpity.com boards. I'd think about posting there, but those people scare me. :)

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Post by Natasha (candygirl) » May 31st 2003, 7:58 pm

Nah, as long as you read the rules and follow them, it's fine. I can hold my own with the Spike haters because I understand that not everyone agrees with me :D The TWoP mods are very strict about following the rules and I have seen them yank people off the boards - and with good reason. With that many members, people just have to respect the forum, the members, the mods, and the rules. It's already chaotic enough there! In that sense, I like that we have a smaller community at this forum.

ITA that BtVS's greatness came about because the show was given the opportunity to grow whereas MSCL was brilliant from day one. Even the MSCL episodes that aren't my favorites are still admittedly miles beyond most everything else on television.

Watching BtVS S1, on the other hand, is more important for the background and basic plot points (Willow's crush on Xander, Xander's crush on Buffy, Buffy's crush on Angel, learning the demonlogy of the Jossverse) than anything else. When I look back now, the most overwhelming feeling I have about S1 is that they were trying too hard to appeal to a young audience - the clothes, the hair, the dialogue (the movie Heathers was able to create a similar feel without feeling forced). Although Buffyspeak has become quite common (after seven years), it's very stylized and specific while MSCL used very realistic and common speech patterns that already existed (rather than making them up).

I don't mean this as a criticism of Joss/ME/BtVS - as a matter of fact, it's crazy to realize how much Buffyspeak has permeated RL - but the feel of MSCL was such that it felt like these were people I could have known, whereas on Buffy even the dorks I knew didn't dress like Willow. I understand that Joss deliberately blended fantasy and reality, but as the show went on, the clothes became slightly less trendy and the dialogue became less obvious (in the "want to be quoted so let's come up with soundbites" vein). In other words, BtVS became confident enough to stand on its own using the story arcs rather than relying on its trendsetting appeal.

MSCL, on the other hand, never pushed the envelope in terms of fashion or wordplay. The intelligent writing, excellent acting, and realism spoke for themselves.

Still two of my favorite shows ever!
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Look, if this is weird for you, being tutored? I don't mind helping you a little longer.
You could have sex with me if you really want to help...I guess that's a "no"?

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Post by JPP13 » Jun 1st 2003, 12:52 pm

You raise a good point and interesting issue about the differences between the 2 shows (MSCL and Buffy). Due to the genre, Joss had many more options available to him. For example, Angela could not thrust a sword through the heart of Brian. Not without the show turning into Crime Scene CSI.

Joss was able to do that. But of course, if we didn't care about the characters, then Buffy stabbing Angel meant nothing. Joss succeeded by making that moment both a physical and emotional one. MSCL had less room to move. But the genius was that one could feel the not-literal sword going through Brian as Angela drove away with Jordan. I'm not trying to make this too sappy, but the MSCL writers and actors had to convey those feelings in a more everyday fashion.

Are these my 2 favorite shows? Well, I'd have to include the Rockford Files as part of that. Being a guy and all. :) Seriously, a great series. And the writing on the Simpsons has been amazing for over 10 years. But of course, its easier to deal with cartoons and not egotistical actors who want to leave the show after a season or two.

I read televisionwithoutpity just for the info. I just don't think I'd have anything to contribute there. Like you said, its too big, yet with the size seems to come a lack of inclusiveness. The Buffy in the Media topic is a good place to keep up to date on the various interviews, etc. Did you read the recent David Fury article thats being discussed? He does sort of come across as an ass. Whats your username over there, if you don't mind me asking? I'd like to see some of your takes on Spike.

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Post by Nostradamus » Jun 1st 2003, 5:24 pm

I'm not so sure that the style of speech that has come to be known as "Buffyspeak" actually originated with that series, or even with the older movie. It's hard to be certain now, but I could almost swear that people in my social circle, as well as on TV, were using some of B's characteristic patterns (such as tacking the suffix "-age" onto everything) at least as far back as the mid 90's, if not earlier. Given the large amount of academic attention on Buffy, I wonder if any lexicographers have looked into this...

:?:

Of course, even if true, it wouldn't diminish the achievement of the Buffy writers and actors; it would simply mean that they were in touch with the common parlance of their times, much like Shakespeare or Mark Twain.
I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure.
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I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it.
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Post by Natasha (candygirl) » Jun 1st 2003, 6:15 pm

No, I definitely agree with that Nostradamus - if you look at Pauly Shore's act, a lot of it relied on creating new words by adding "age" to the end or using nouns, adjectives, and verbs creatively ("grindage" = food), and as I mentioned earlier, the cult classic Heathers (released in 1989) influenced teenage speech patterns as well. As a matter of fact, one of the things typically credited to BtVS is something that I originally heard in Heathers: "(adjective) much?"

Wow, did I just give Pauly Shore credit for something?

I didn't mean to say that BtVS created teenage slang, but that there are specific speech patterns used repeatedly on BtVS (such as using adjectives as nouns - "Love makes you do the wacky," turning nouns into adjectives - "This could be mathier," using movie titles as adjectives - "So I guess we're Thelma & Louise-ing it again," etc) that have become a part of pop culture. If I never hear "What's the what?" again...

:D
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Look, if this is weird for you, being tutored? I don't mind helping you a little longer.
You could have sex with me if you really want to help...I guess that's a "no"?

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