About Angela

General discussion about the nineteen episodes of "My So-Called Life". Note: Our episode guide can be found here.
MonnyUK2
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Re: About Angela

Post by MonnyUK2 » Mar 17th 2008, 6:10 pm

Cami,
I hope you are well. I thought that line was funny. Graham obviously can see straight through Brian. It seems that only Angela is blind to the truth. In terms of Ricky I think things would have still developed. I feel that Angela nad Ricky had grown pretty close before she OD'd and that after 'Guns and Gossip' they were friends in their own right. What do you think? Despite Angela being selfish at times she does generally care about those around her. I think Ricky is a good friend for Angela because he does tell her the truth as we see in 'Betrayal' when he asks her why she made the move on Corey and in 'In Dreams' where he speels it out to Angela that Brian wrote that letter even though she didn't realise it. Why are you girls so dizzy when you're in love?lol.

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Cami A.
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Re: About Angela

Post by Cami A. » Mar 17th 2008, 11:11 pm

Hey Monny.
I'm good. You?
Yea only Angela is blind to Brian's feelings. Then again, I'm not sure if Graham knows of Brian's particular interest in Angela or that he just assumes all young boys are perverted :P...That's true Rickie and Angela were growing ever closer even before Rayanne's mess-ups...they probably would've been close to the same if not exactly the same.

Not all girls are so dizzy. I think it depends...it's only really our first experience that we feel that way about. After that we are more realistic because we have been disappointed by a boy or so. I like to think I'm more level headed than most. I had a horribly strong crush on one guy all throughout high school, but once he dissed me by saying he wasn't going to prom when I asked and then going with another girl, I never talked to him again.
My first boyfriend also taught me that guys aren't as great as we make them out to be at first. Now I am more realistic and my love for people grows slowly rather than consuming me fast and hard...
Boys are similar when it comes to girls right? Or am I wrong?

Cam
"So, the mouse makes pressure, just by breathing?...I can relate."

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ikilledkennyandjr
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Re: About Angela

Post by ikilledkennyandjr » Mar 18th 2008, 10:10 am

Just jumping in again...

In regards to Graham, I somewhat wish that more was shown of his relationship with Angela. But I realize why it wasn't: he's losing to grip on her, and he has to be okay with that. Father Figures was pivotal here. I think at the end of that episode, he started treating her less like his little girl and more like a maturing young woman. However, in The Substitute he again talked down to her. So I'm not sure.

I think one of the most telling scenes is in Pressure. Graham was trying to nap on the couch and he had to endure Angela talking about sex with both Brian and Jordan. This was obviously not something he thought was on her radar. She's his daughter! He had to give her credit, though, for not going through with it. Someday he'd have allowed himself to feel proud. It's like, when you're little, you hold your father's hand to cross the street. But now Angela was on the other side of the street, and her hand was not in Graham's. It'd be hard for any parent. I think the estrangement would be only temporary though. It's ironic that Angela needed to push her father "off the pedestal" to realize how great he was.

I love that quote about Brian, too! I agree, he saw right through Brian. It wasn't hard, though. I mean, the kid made it obvious! It also didn't really bug him, because Krakow is as non-threatening as they come. I think the fact that Graham could laugh about someone picturing his daughter naked showed maturity.

Rickie... I don't know. I think having to deal with Rayanne really solidified their friendship. It was strong before, but it was stronger afterwards. After Betrayal she relied on Rickie, because she couldn't count on Rayanne.

I agree with Cami that love is better when it comes on slow. I think it also lasts longer. This could relate to the whole Brian/Angela/Jordan situation...
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Re: About Angela

Post by MonnyUK2 » Mar 18th 2008, 11:50 am

In regards to myself in relationships I guess the way it has happened it has always been the same. You like someone at first but when you get to know them more your feelings grow stronger and stronger. I guess when we are teenagers then we do fall head over heals but then we try to learn from all the mistakes that we make. With me I always fell for girls (like Brian) I knew had little chance of ending up with. This was due to the fact that they saw me more as a friend than as boyfriend material. Many of them like angela could not see the feelings I had for them but everybody else around me and them could see it a mile away.

In terms of Graham then yes he doesn't wish to accept in some ways that Angela is becoming a young woman but in other ways he is. At the end of 'Father Figures' like you said then this is a fairly adult converstaion but then he doesn't want to know if his little princess has ummed Jordan or not. I think all fathers go through this and you're right when Angela has to push him away for him and her to start their new relationship. This is the one of father and more mature daughter.

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Cami A.
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Re: About Angela

Post by Cami A. » Mar 18th 2008, 2:59 pm

MONNY:

Haha. That's cute that your life is so much like Brian's. Yea, sometimes people are dealt the friend card. I feel it's been that way with me. I've always had many male friends, and no one ever thought of me romantically. I guess I'm not feminine enough, eh?

I agree with your analysis of the progression of Graham's relationship with Angela.

KENNY:

I think Graham can't help but talk down to her in the Substitute because he still thinks he knows what's best for her. It's hard for him to restrain himself. Yea, it's weird how we do have to knock people down and build them back up in order to come to peace with who they are.

You've got a good point about Rickie and Angela. I think that Rayanne and Angela's falling out further solidified their relationship.

So when are you gonna defend Patty? help me out!

Cam
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Cami A.
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Re: About Angela

Post by Cami A. » Nov 15th 2008, 5:43 am

Kenny, I'm still waiting for you to defend Patty here.
I know it's been ages, but Monny finds her annoying,
and I don't think she gets enough credit.

Also, I think we should take this thread in a specific direction--I think we should analyze Angela's relations with all the secondary characters like Vic Racine, Camille Cherski, Mrs. Mayhew, Mr. Katimski, Abyssinia Churchill, Corey etc...

Something about the way she interacts with them really intrigues me but I don't know how to put my finger on it, something about treating them as insignificant, or means to ends, or using them for self reflection...anyone wanna take a crack at it?

I'm particularly interested in her relationship with Abyssinia first...
"So, the mouse makes pressure, just by breathing?...I can relate."

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Re: About Angela

Post by HeyDave » Nov 15th 2008, 8:35 pm

Hi Cami,

I've been going through reading this topic and you guys were right, it's an interesting one. I think Abyssinia was another example of Angela starting to reach out and broaden her world. Just like she did with Rayanne, Rickie and Jordan...... Breaking out from her comfortable childhood (Sharon and Brian) and seeking something new. It would have been interesting to see where her budding friendship with Abyssinia would have gone. I don't see her as ever being a central character, but I bet there might have been an interesting story line or two developed. The dynamics of a sheltered young white woman developing a friendship with an African American would have been interesting to see. I also enjoyed the fact that Abyssinia was also a very good student. My wife attended a large city school district and had friends that were many different races. She has told me that the African American girls that were good students were often teased terribly by their peers to the point that they often hid their accomplishments. We could see this happening even in the short glimpses we saw of Abyssinia. As I said, it seems like there were alot of interesting story lines that could have been developed around her.

Now to change the subject to Patty. I'm on board with you Cami, I like her. In fact, I like her alot. I could go on for hours about her, but maybe that should be saved for another topic. I'll just say that I think she's a grown alot along with Angela.

Dave

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Cami A.
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Re: About Angela

Post by Cami A. » Nov 17th 2008, 5:42 am

Dave,

Thanks for joining.
I think what you had to say about Abyssinia is very interesting. I do think that for Angela she was a mirror she could hold up to herself up to and say--hey there's people who have problems that are completely different than mine, but at the end of the day our diverse problems all stem from the same type of pressures. Unfortunately, in their case, it mostly has to do with impressing the people they want to accept them--boys.

I thought it was very interesting that Rayanne brings up Abyssinia later when she's worried about not getting the O-Town part and refers to her as Angela's friend in an attempt to be pouty. I wonder if there are parts of Angela and Abyssinia's relationship that we didn't see that caused Rayanne to even think that they are somewhat friends. We only see Angela interact with her that one time.

Abyssinia's character really drew me in, because racially, MSCL is not that diverse except for Rickie, and it was interesting to see that common problem ethnic girls often deal with--it's not cool for them to be smart. Also, I loved that even though she was weary about letting her peers know this about her, at the same time she was herself in that she was in Drama and wouldn't purposely score lower on exams just to prove a point.

Also, I had many moment in high school like the one that Angela and Abyssinia shared, where I would have a moment of bonding with an acquaintance, and maybe talk to them in class, but outside of class we would barely say hi. Just like for Angela, it was all part of growing up, learning about yourself through your similarities and differences with other people, and taking that and applying it elsewhere.

I'd have loved to see Abyssinia get some bigger storylines. Maybe she could be involved in a subplot of one of the title characters major storylines. Even to see her interact with Rayanne instead of Angela would be interesting....
"So, the mouse makes pressure, just by breathing?...I can relate."

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ikilledkennyandjr
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Re: About Angela

Post by ikilledkennyandjr » Nov 18th 2008, 8:58 pm

I have thought for a while that Abbyssinia would make the cutest rebound gal for Brian. Something about intense calculus study strikes me as so romantic. :lol:

I agree, I liked her character and I liked the brief bonding she did with Angela. My impression was that they didn't talk much afterwards, just said hi in the hallways and things like that, as Cami mentioned. It can be hard figuring out how to be friends with someone--most of the friendships on the show have come about by serendipity, history, or meeting each other through other people. However, we don't see how or why Angela and Rayanne became friends.

Cami, in an earlier post you said basically everything that needs to be said about Patty. She's indeed under tons of stress, under-appreciated, and possibly depressed. The extent of her love and sacrifice for her family earns my respect. When she "fired" Graham I just melted. How could he possibly consider cheating on her?! Also consider her actions in "Other People's Mothers". She does what needs to be done, calmly and lovingly (albeit with a side order of stick-up-butt-syndrome). Compared to Amber, she's a saint.
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Cami A.
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Re: About Angela

Post by Cami A. » Nov 19th 2008, 3:57 am

I don't know. Abyssinia and Krakow? I don't like it. Plus, I don't think she'd go for him. But you can have your nerdy fantasies, if you'd like. :P

I can completely imagine how Rayanne and Angela met. Rayanne and her were probably in the bathroom at the same time one day. And Rayanne probably just asked her some absurd personal question that caught Angela's attention. And then they ended up talking, and then Rayanne said all non-chalant--"Let's Go." And Angela followed her, and from then on they started hanging out regularly. That's how it happened when I started hanging out with my Rayanne...that was when I was 12 and now we are still best friends--probably because she never slept with "my man." :lol:

Any other thoughts on Abyssinia as a motif or theme of some sort?

Thoughts on Camille Cherski and her role in Angela's development. How does Angela interact with her, and what does this mean to us?
"So, the mouse makes pressure, just by breathing?...I can relate."

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Re: About Angela

Post by MonnyUK2 » Nov 19th 2008, 9:48 am

I totally agree with what you guys said about Abyssinia. I think that maybe it would be a storyline they would have picked up on in the future. Although there are references to Malcolm X and Martin Luther King in the series so I think this is an issue the producers maybe wanted to go into at some later time. Also in Self-Esteem if you notice when Angela talks about everybody having thir certain places to hang out, all the racial groups seem to stick together. Does Angela mean this when she is talking about boundaries you don't cross?

I think MSCL would have dealt with this issue as it does with all the other issues it raises in a hard hitting but tactful way. I don't think Brian would have gone for Abyssinia but then again you never know. There are many stereotypes that this show deals with in terms the differing attiutudes to education and life. You have Jordan and Brian who are very different although Jordan is Italian does he fit the stereotype of young Italians in America? Does Brian fit the mould of young, middle-class white children? Are Rayanne and Ricky typical children that come from broken homes? These are all isues that MSCL deals with in some backgound context.

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Cami A.
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Re: About Angela

Post by Cami A. » Nov 23rd 2008, 6:00 am

Hey Monny!

Were there references to MLK? I don't recall.
It didn't seem like the series ever touched too specifically on race. I liked that. It wasn't cliche. It didn't preach about equality. Instead it looked at the common struggles all teenagers of all races, genders, economic background, and sexual orientation. I didn't get the idea that Angela thought of Abyssinia as any different from her in a racial sense, they bonded over what they had in common...deciding how to carry themselves and be themselves, while also getting acceptance from their peers.

I think when Angela says everyone has their certain places to hang out, we do see Abyssinia called over to the black crowd, but I think she is talking about all dividing factors...popular kids, nerds, older kids, younger kids, race, gender, jocks, poor kids, rich kids etc...Its hard to cross any boundaries...you stick with "your own". It would have been nice to see Abyssinia cross a boundary and date Brian or something, but the good thing about MSCL is it stays realistic...so that probably wouldn't happen. I wonder how Angela would react to that?? Would she be jealous of Abyssinia?
"So, the mouse makes pressure, just by breathing?...I can relate."

MonnyUK2
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Re: About Angela

Post by MonnyUK2 » Nov 24th 2008, 5:29 am

Cami,
I think you are right about Abyssinia. The references to MLK or Malcolm X are in episode 5 or episode 3 I think (Can someone confirm this). I think Angela would be jealous of anybody Brian dated after she found out how he felt. Although I don't think she would have admitted it.
I think MSCL did focus on equality although racism was an area they could have looked at later. As many children in schools just like Liberty do suffer from many types of bullying. As we see in 'The Pilot' when Brian is up against the lockers and those boys are bullying him. Another example is Ricky when he is bullied in episode 3 for being 'different'.
This is why MSCL was so good because it was realistic and never tried to be far fetched. If Brain and Abyssinia had gone out would they have made a nice couple? What reaction would they have got from their peers?

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Cami A.
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Re: About Angela

Post by Cami A. » Jul 30th 2009, 6:02 am

Wow, haven't touched this topic in a while....you still around Monny?
I don't know how people would have reacted to Abyssinia and Brian as a couple. I don't think we got to see the student's general attitudes towards the mixing of races in the episodes ABC gave us...anyone else have any ideas?

Is there any way to steer this convo back to Angela...anyone new have anything to say regarding some of the older/original content of this thread?

The original discussion question was:

Is Angela a good person/friend/daughter? Is she the real hero of MSCL, or is she just a looking glass through which we see the evolution of other more morally promising characters?

I'll have to go back through this and sort of pinpoint the other subtopics we drifted across...to make it easier for people to jump in...
"So, the mouse makes pressure, just by breathing?...I can relate."

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Re: About Angela

Post by 411314 » Aug 9th 2010, 12:34 pm

ikilledkennyandjr, were you really asking for an answer when you wondered how Graham could even consider cheating of Patty, or was it a rhetorical question? It's despicable that he would do that to her, but I think I can guess why he did it. I think he feels that she doesn't respect him. Remember that the episode where we first hear about him considering cheating is the one where they went out dancing, and Patty reprimended him for saying her ears looked nice. I think he may sometimes feel that it's a struggle not to make Patty angry with him. This other woman apparently practically worshiped him, and he may wish he got more of that from Patty (not worship, just respect). I think Angela probably feels the same way about her mother sometimes, and I think we can gather that Patty realizes this, given her New Year's resolution to be "less judgemental, less critical" or something along those lines.

On the subject of Brian and Abyssina, I don't think we know enough about her to judge the chances of her and Brian becoming a couple.

Now, the original question about Angela. It's not really as simple as her being or not being a good person. Like all the characters with the possible exception of Rickie (who seems to be pretty much all good qualities), she has her positive traits and her flaws. I think by "Life of Brian" she's always a good friend to Rickie. She starts out as a good friend to Rayanne in that she's very loyal to her, such as when she insists on going to her party, but perhaps one could argue that she's not being a good friend by not being willing to point the ways she's hurting herself (during problem, for instance). What are your thoughts on that one? Her attitude towards the idea of Rayanne joining Jordan's band was a little insensitive. I think by that point, Rayanne felt they were drifting apart and she was looking for an opportunity to reconnect.
She's generally NOT a good friend to Brian, and I would say she's not even really his friend. He's often rude to her, not to mention starting that rumor about her, but at least when he's mean to her, weather he's right or wrong to disapprove (and he's often wrong), it's usually because of something she did. She often talks to or about him like she's annoyed by his existence (“get out of her Krakow”, an annoyed “excuse me, but what are you doing here?” “Brian Krakow, the reason for all pain” etc.), so I’d say she’s much meaner to him then vice versa.
I think that, too Patty at least, she can be a rather insensitive daughter. She doesn’t even really think before blabbing about her mother’s “abandonment issues” to Amber, and she made that cruel comment to her both of her parents that Vic was “an adult I can look up to, finally”. On the other hand, Patty does often strike me as a mean mother. I think she overreacts a lot.

On one last note, Angela’s not a very good big sister, either. If there’s one character she’s as cruel to as Brian, it’s Danielle.

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