European Addresses

Political Discussion: You've been warned! Please remember we are all friends here. Insults will not be tolerated!
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starbug
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argh!

Post by starbug » Jun 25th 2002, 5:28 am

Believe me, I really, REALLY wasn't going to get involved in this... but I have been moved to do so.

I write as someone whose parents were American. They are now not Americans, largely as a result of the Vietnam war. make of that what you will... But the result of this is that every member of my family apart from them is American and lives in America. I do not think Americans are stupid or obnoxious - just massively blinkered. After living in the USA for 21 years my parents arrived outside and will now testify to the fact that they now feel as though they were brainwashed during their entire formative years by the American propaganda machine. Not to say that it is some massive conspiracy, just the result of extreme patriotism encouraged by the US government on every level. The result is they had no idea about the rest of the world until they left America.

Like everyone, I was deeply shocked upset outraged on a very personal level when I witnessed what was going on 9/11. I had several frantic phone calls eventually relieved by the realisation that my family are all fine. Sadly, I cannot say the same about other people's families and the pain they must still go through cannot be imagined.

Speaking from experience of American news coverage, I can honestly say that the reporting there provides a very twisted view of situations. There is nothing, I repeat NOTHING, wrong with getting behind your country and NOTHING about terrorism that is acceptable. However to do it informed only by what the people in power want you to see is blind. Yes, Americans may be better informed than people in countries that actively oppress their media. But it does not necessarily follow that you are operating in full possession of all the facts. I could say the same about my own country too. It is the awareness of the existence of propaganda that matters, and this is something Americans on their 'free speech' bandwagon seem to forget. Anyone ever seen a film called 'wag the dog'?

One thing is certain: the USA remains completely unaware of how the rest of the world sees them as a NATION (I'm not talking about individuals here). The rest of the world may be generalising or stereotyping but now more than ever it is important for the US to realise that things like levies on steel imports are not greeted with great enthusiasm and that their foreign policy on so many levels needs to break away from the idea that the American ideal is necessarily best, globally speaking. Every country has its problems, including America. Countries in the world are astonishingly diverse and the American ideal does not suit everyone.

I live in a country that has suffered terrorism for over 30 years. My city has been bombed by people who were financed covertly by sources in the US. No, I don't agree with terrorism. But I do think that it is sometimes the way people say things that is wrong, rather than what they are saying. Terrorism is NEVER an acceptable way of saying anything, but that doesn't mean that certain points do not need to be made.

For the record, I deal with US government bodies on a regular basis in my line of work, and I have had great problems trying to get them to believe that my country has laws which are capable of preventing discrimination, or providing effective healthcare etc etc. Most of Americas laws are in fact based on what has been in existence in my country for hundreds of years. I resent the implication from representatives of these government bodies that the rest of the world lives in deep dark caves with no civilisation. It has been very hard when faced with this attitude to actually reach a constructive solution to some very basic difficulties. With America it seems to be 'my way or the high way' and that is what I think annoys the rest of the world. Nobody doubts the good intentions of America but as a nation it must learn that isolationism is not the way forward.

Furthermore, your great American tradition of free speech means that this message is probably classed as one to be 'flagged' by the CIA. There may be some repercussions upon all of us for even discussing terrorism. Not to be melodramatic, but it's a fact. It should not be.

I am not putting myself forward as particularly knowledgeable. I know that the inevitable response to this will be 'well they killed all these civilians and we have to retaliate'. Yes, I agree. It's terrible and the world is a horrible place. But for America to pretend they are not part of it (only when it suits them, mind) helps no-one. Not even America, which is why the terrorists attacked in the first place.

The originator of this post rather shot their own valid point in the foot by coming out with some outrageous statements meaning the whole point of the debate was lost in the mess of an argument about 9/11. And by the way, most of the rest of the world would write 11/9. It is true that America is incredibly unwilling to bend themselves towards the rest of the world even on such minor things as paper sizes and post codes. It would help them if they were.

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K-man
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Re: argh!

Post by K-man » Jun 25th 2002, 9:41 am

Ed and Starbug, following my post yesterday....will you and everyone else who has all the solutions to all our problems please vent elsewhere. This is a site about the television show My So Called Life. It's not point/counter-point or The O'Reily Factor or some sort of political cage match. Though it is difficult for me to hold my thoughts here (very difficult) I maintain that this forum is about the show. I think at this point all the pugilists should look elsewhere.
Hats off to Jason and anyone else here who lost friends/family on 9/11 or those who live in close enough proximity to the crash sites to be directly affected for keeping their composure and civil frame of mind. And since the private message function is not working for me..So Called Fan, don't let these folks get to ya.

So my feeling is, whatever happens, happens. K-man

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socalledfan
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Re: The other viewpoint

Post by socalledfan » Jun 25th 2002, 9:41 am

Ed, you are entitled to your opinion and your post was very well thought out and stated.

However, I just wanted to point out something. I will NOT apologize for the comments I made to "Anonymous." I stand by them.

And just to clarify, I am not an uber-patriot blinded by government rhetoric. TRUST ME. I didn't even vote for Bush. However, I do not condone people with a "big bad USA deserved this" mentality. I'd like to see them snickering and being so smug if their country's major cities were attacked and over 3000 people were dead because of some psychotic group's RELIGIOUS ideology.

And nobody here should lump Americans in one big pile as obnoxious, "insular" monsters. That is ignorant. Of course we're proud of our nation. Because we are free. But that doesn't mean we don't care about the rest of the world. We are proud to have great and strong allies, and we have often throughout history come to the aid of nations whose political or social conditions were dangerous. Some of our involvement in foreign wars has been questionable, yes. And we sometimes get involved when some might argue we should stay out of things. But they would bitch JUST as much, if not more, if we just sat back and didn't get involved in the fate of the world.

I am a college-educated 27-year-old woman, and really, believe it or not, I am NOT very political. I do however, feel compelled to defend the honor of my great nation, with its flaws and all, when someone says something disgusting.

Yes, I said "FLAWS" and all. Our nation is not perfect. Some of our foreign policies have been ill-received. Obviously. However, we have also done a lot of good in the world. And I know we are not "the only country in the world." THIS American is not that egocentric to think that we're great and everyone else sucks. I for one, LOVE Europe. Have been there several times and would live there in a heartbeat. And most Americans don't feel that WE ARE THE BEST...that is a GROSS misconception around the world. I know that we have made some mistakes in history...who the hell hasn't???? But I am also proud of the positive things we have done for our nation as well as others. MANY other nations have helped other countries in times of need...we are not the only ones guiding the fate of the world. OF COURSE I KNOW THIS.

Anti-American sentiment is garbage. There are sooooo many stereotypes about Americans that I resent. For one, we all don't sit around waving the flag and flipping the bird to the rest of the world. And, oh, some social stereotypes... we're not idiots devoid of class and artistic culture, we all don't love empty pop music sung by blonde bimbos, we all don't sit around and eat McDonalds, we all don't dress in a hideously cheesy way. OKAY??? This is a free society and we come in different colors, with different social interests, religious and political beliefs. And we should not be lumped into one big "pro-Bush, pro-USA, pro-Israel, etc..." label.

Anonymous didn't have the guts to sign his or her name because he/she knows that what they are saying is shameful. That is all. No more political speak from me. I am not here to talk about this!!! And I probably shouldn't have EVEN written to Anonymous because this is a MSCL board and this discussion doesn't belong here. But, hey, call me proud and "insular." "Obnoxious," even. ;-) I am the big bad red-white-and-blue MONSTER!!!! Give me a friggin' break. They'll believe what the hell they want anyway. (*sarcasm*)









"You're so beautiful, it hurts to look at you."

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starbug
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Re: The other viewpoint

Post by starbug » Jun 25th 2002, 12:21 pm

this is not the place to discuss, true.
Just one thing - sometimes the question isn't how you ARE, it's how you are PERCEIVED. Bear it in mind...

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socalledfan
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Re: The other viewpoint-- my last comment.

Post by socalledfan » Jun 25th 2002, 12:28 pm

Starbug, oh well, there is nothing I can do about how people PERCEIVE my country as the big bad monster that deserves terrorism because of its foreign policies. It's ignorant and hateful thinking, and trying to fight ignorance and hate is futile.

The end. No more talk on this because it's too heated.


"You're so beautiful, it hurts to look at you."

hollis
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Governmensts Rarely Reflect People

Post by hollis » Jun 25th 2002, 4:43 pm

Here are my thoughts:
I think that Bush is a trigger-happy, arogant, propoganda-spouting fool.
I think all media is bias. In America, however, there is an overload of one-sided reporting.
I think the American government puts out a 'We are the best, We have all the answers' message.
HOWEVER, I am not AGAINST Americans. Don't confuse governments with people.

I notice that 9/11 has inevitably come up on this board a few times, and that's fine. However, instead of throwing something about that in here, I will say this. My love, thoughts and support go out to the families of the four Canadian soldiers who died in Afghanistan at the hands of an American pilot recently.

( I am of the opinion that they never should've been there in the first place, but this doesn't mean I hate all Canadians. I think the pilot was an idiot, but that doesn't mean I hate all Americans. See how that works?)

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K-man
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Re: Governmensts Rarely Reflect People

Post by K-man » Jun 25th 2002, 5:05 pm

I know this topic is supposed to be finished but..... Ya know what gets me???? All you anti-American/Bush countries love to bash us and our govt. and our policies, but when the s**t hits the fan and lunatics start driving planes into your cities the U.S. is the first place you come-a-cryin for help. Yep; good old big brother has to bail your asses out and send you food, military support, $ and anything else you whine for. (Like you are our responsibility in the first place!) And if we hold even a little back you scream what a tyrannical monster we are. And when we right your ship and wipe your snivelling noses you go right back to bashing us. You hate us 'cause we got it good. Better than anyone else in fact. Jealousy is so unattractive.

So my feeling is, whatever happens, happens. K-man

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dTheater
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Re: Governmensts Rarely Reflect People

Post by dTheater » Jun 25th 2002, 10:14 pm

I don't care who says what; everyone can have their opinions (unless they're as poorly stated as Anonymous'), but remember this: Americans created My So-Called Life.

- Jim

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http://girlwithguitar.0catch.com/

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Re: Governmensts Rarely Reflect People

Post by Guest » Jun 26th 2002, 7:22 am

America also produced critical writers like Noam Chomsky and I'm damn grateful for that.

hollis
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Re: Governmensts Rarely Reflect People

Post by hollis » Jun 26th 2002, 5:45 pm

Was that directed at me? If so, I suggest you go back and re-read my post. Thank you for your time.

Guest

Re: The other viewpoint-- my last comment.

Post by Guest » Jun 27th 2002, 8:44 pm

Hey.

NO ONE said you deserve it ---- no one deserves something like that. Stop making up things I didn't say. What I pointed out about America (as in how others perceive the country) is agreed with by most Americans I have ever spoken to anyway. I have been to America more times that I can count and I love it and have life0-long American friends - but I still say that you don't do yourself any favours in how you come across to others...what's the big deal, that's ALL I said. And I would never ever ever say that the USA deserved terrorism. I am British and the UK has had to live with terrorism for as long as I can remember - I am proud to be British and I am proud that the USA and UK are allies and fighting the war togther.

The reason I did not give my name is because I am in the States right now visiting friends for June and July......it is JOANNA! (the one that always seems to cause trouble on here!)

Guest

One more thing from me........

Post by Guest » Jun 27th 2002, 8:55 pm

What I meant was - I am not on my own PC and can't remember my MSCL password. I had no idea that my comments would offend everyone so much (I have just checked in).....for which I apologise.

Last September I raised money for the NY firefighters, signed the book of condolence in our city's cathederal, flew the USA flag from my house and cried every day for two weeks when I watched the news. I back the UK going to war with America 100% - I NEVER said USA deserved it - I SAID it was more of a shock to them than the rest of the world, that is all - mostly because other countries have had to deal with terrorism before. My sister was in Manchester when the Irish blasted it apart with a terrorist bomb.....so for British people terrorism is not such a great suprise. I love America, I am dating an American (who knows my views) - people shouldn't get SO over heated. No offence was meant - especially about September. We ALL felt that.

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K-man
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Re: One more thing from me........

Post by K-man » Jun 28th 2002, 10:10 am

Joanna, Oh my dear Joanna,
Life is funny....just yesterday I sent you a private message wondering where you have been and asking if you were OK 'cause you haven't been on the board lately. But Private message isn't working for me. I was getting concerned by your abscence and now this? You sure kicked the hornets nest on this one. Truth be told I will try and get over this but I have to say I was disappointed to find out this was you. I believe you when you say you didn't say/mean the US deserved this. And I also believe you love this country and have lots of friends over here. But please understand that in this day and age in this country one must TREAD LIGHTLY regarding any and all comments concerning 9/11 or terrorism. That is a nerve, the most sensitive nerve of all in fact a person could hit. I have to admit when I read your post my interpretation was you were rubbing salt in the gash. Someone here was talking about perceptions and my perception on the post was a "how do you guys like it" type of thing. I don't think I was the only one who was offended. If you tell me your post was innocuous and benign I believe you. I want to believe you. I hope this post is finished. This has gotten pretty nasty. I would much rather have sent you my thoughts elsewhere but private message doesn't work and I don't know your e-mail and I don't have time to go to the chatroom today. I am not trying to start a 'pile on Joanna' thread here by any means. I hope others will not do so either. Joanna is my friend from here in the forum and always has something to contribute to these posts. I have to give you BIG props for the courage to step up and take credit for your anonymous post. You knew you were gonna be wearing the bulls-eye for that one and you owned up to it anyway. More guts than I have I gotta say. I hope you enjoy your stay here in the states and get home safely.

K-man

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socalledfan
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Re: The other viewpoint-- my last comment.

Post by socalledfan » Jun 28th 2002, 11:25 am

Joanna, I've seen your name around here before and I am surprised too that it was you that said such things. I don't want to argue with a fellow poster here at MSCL, or any fellow "Lifer" in general. But what you said was HIGHLY inflammatory. And yes, from the following statement (yours) it did look like you were saying that USA deserves what it's getting. I quote:

"they never put themselves across very well to the rest of the world and anything that has happened to their country IS OF THEIR OWN DOING........"

CAPS added to show the statement that particularly sounded horrible.

I don't want to continue this argument...I'm willing to just move on from this topic and get back to FRIENDLIER and more harmless subjects i.e. Miss Angela Chase. However...perhaps you ought to be more careful with your words, if that is indeed truly NOT what you meant.

Let's just forget it...it never should have been said. A case of bad jugdment, and we all have our bad days.

Socalledfan


"You're so beautiful, it hurts to look at you."

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Re: One more thing from me........

Post by Guest » Jul 7th 2002, 10:33 pm

Thanks K-Man,

Took in everything you said and agreed with it. I do love your country and did not choose my words lightly - glad we are still friends. I am still in the States and so won't be checking my private messages until I get back to the UK (if I ever go back! LOL)....but I'll be sure to read them when I get home :0)

Thanks again for your comments. Heard them loud and clear.

Jo x

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