File Trading...as bad as shoplifting?

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andrewgd
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File Trading...as bad as shoplifting?

Post by andrewgd » Jun 6th 2003, 1:01 am

(First off, I know this has been discussed a little in other forums, but I thought a bit more intense one could ensue in this forum)

I ran across this, and found it pretty amusing:

http://www.internalmemos.com/memos/memo ... mo_id=1609
Copyright infringement is also illegal, no less so than shoplifting a CD.
First of all, this point is completely b#llsh#t. Shoplifting a cd takes merchandise that the store paid for, and they lose out. Downloading music TAKES nothing. (yes, yes, I'll get to that in a moment). But as for the store, it does not take any merchandise, and they are not OUT anything for it.

Now, I understand that you could argue that if you didn't steal it, you would have bought it. I know that 90% of what I download, I'd NEVER buy. If it wasn't free, I wouldn't pay money out for it. And the other 10% that I download, if I like it, I may just go out and buy ALL their albums. I discovered Underworld and Air by downloading one of their albums. I loved it, then I went out and bought ALL their albums, because they were GOOD, and WORTH my money.

The artists only get about $1 for an $18 cd. It costs about $1 to manufacture the cd. I don't know how much it costs to promote or produce the cd (studio time), but I somehow doubt it would come to even $5 a cd. Somehow I doubt that $18 for a cd is really what is necessary to keep the music business in business.

I, for one, would buy many more cds if they cost $8, even $10. But when it costs almost $20, and it turns out that only 3 songs are any good, thats a huge waste of money. Over Christmas, I saw a CD player for $15. Let me repeat that: I saw a CD player for $15. How rediculous is it that you can get a cd player, with all its mechanics and laser and computer chips, for less than a slab of plastic? How can the player cost less than the media?

Its not right. Until the retail comes down to acceptable levels, I'll keep file trading, thank you very much.
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Post by fnordboy » Jun 6th 2003, 2:12 am

This is a weird subject for me, I have a few different views to it and I can see most sides of the argument.

First things first. Yes I file share.... alot. Not really music so much anymore, well not entirely true I have been downloading anime soundtracks a lot lately, mainly I am doing anime digisubs (subtitled anime of shows currently running in Japan).

Some stats - currently on my computer I have:

69.6 gigs / 5,679 files in 465 folders
50.3 gigs of that is anime digisubs and 16.1 gigs of that is MP3s, the rest are random video files, music videos etc.

That is not counting the 10 or so DVD-Rs i have full of anime files and the 30+ CD-Rs I have full of anime and music, or the 6 gigs of s**t I have on my work computer in the office that still needs to be tranferred here.

That said, I have well over 200 anime DVDs and I always buy what I like once it is released in the region 1 market, and I never download a full series if it is available on DVD (any region) with english subtitles. I also have probably well over 1000 cds that I have purchased over the years. I clearly support the market and eentually end up buying what I download.

I think downloading music and such is fine, especially if you are downloading to try it out and see if it is worth your money. I try not to download full albums, because then I will question if it is worht buying since technically I already have the music in my possession. I use downloading as no different then borrowing a friends cd/tape and making a copy, or making mixed tapes. It is to help you discover new music, or help others discover new music. Many years ago I bought a lot of things blindly just because it was an influence of another band I liked, or I read an interview with the band and it sounded interesting, etc. Of course that means I have some bad purchases in my collection now :), with DLing I have the option of knowing if it is worth it. The majority of music I listen to isn't, or wasn't back then, on the radio except maybe on some of the small independent/free form or college stations. But even then it is not the easiest thing to find Nurse With Wound or Poster Children on the radio.

The problem I have is with the people who download things that are available in stores and easily found. Downloading should not be a replacement to buying things. A large portion of the anime fanbase do not buy DVDs but DL every show they want to watch. That does nothing for the industry. And it infact does hurt it and hurts the fans because it does probably stop some things from being licensed here. If the company isn't making the sales then they won't have the extra cash to license new and fringe titles.

Same goes with music, bands won't be signed if there is not enough cash moving in.

Of course a lot of the problem does lie with the music execs. They should not be charging that much for CDs, and if I see a cd for that much I will not buy it. I will find somewhere cheaper or will pass on it for now. I may or may not download it. CDs went from costing 10 or 11 bucks in the the store and skyrocketed up to 16-18 in no time. The music selection and the quality of bands degraded while the cost inflated. It is insane. Bands get fucked over in their contracts, but that is business. I can understand why the music industry does it, especially if people sign without knowing what they are getting into. There are plenty of bands out there unknown and known that negotiated there contracts intelligently and made out great. Bands usually have to pay for everything they do out of their own paycheck,from studio time to their tour vehicle. Usually the only money bands pull in easily themselves is the shirts and/or CDs they sell on tour. That is why you have so many bands that tour extensively. CD sales do not do much for the band in stores, they may see some of it, but most likely it is going toward the debt they owe the label and their management.

So of course I do not feel too guilty if I do not buy a CD of a band if I have the tracks DLed. 9 times out of 10 though I buy the CD and whatever else they have available. I prefer to have the cover artwork and the printed CDs. CD-Rs are boring ;)

Changes have to be made in the music industry, the quality is just not there for the price we pay for these items. It is outrageous when you have a CD put out with 8 or 9 tracks and that is considered a full album. Unless those tracks are really long pieces, otherwise it is an EP in my mind and should not cost 15-18 dollars.

The one good thing about peer-to-peer software is that it has helped put the bootleggers out of business. I will occassionally by a bootleg of a DVD if there is no legit one available with english subs, and I have bought a few bootleg aniem soundtrack CDs mainly because 25 bucks a CD is damn expensive (that is how much CDs cost in Japan).

If you want to help support good musicians and labels that do the right thing, buy directly from them online or via the band at a show. That does the most good. Of course this only works for the smaller bands and labels, not for the large corporations. Usually you can pick up the CDs for 10 or 11 dollars shipped.

Like any other good thing people abuse p2p and it will ruin it for the rest of us who use it the way it was intended.

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dowloading, file sharing, etc

Post by lance » Jun 6th 2003, 9:19 am

Yup,

This topic has been covered before, If I was candygirl I could give the appropriate links. Me being Lance Man, I am just too lazy.

Good topic for the political discussion thread.

I agree with the sentiments expressed by andrewgd and fnordboy. Yeah, CDs are overpriced. If they sold for $9.99 they would probably sell a ton more than they do now.

Fnordboy, I like the sentiment you expressed about DVDs. I like how you are willing to buy Region One DVDs when they become available. In that case the company that makes the DVD will eventually be getting your dollar.

Andrewgd, that memo sounds pretty typical to me. I have worked for plenty of companies that have invoked a "loyalty clause". At my currenty job we are supposed to represent the library in a "positive light" and that our off hours behavior can be used to evaulate our job performance.

:roll:

The one possibility about file sharing and cd burning that might come about in John Ashcroft's America might be additional punishments for copyright infringment. With the good old Patriot Act the Feds can search your home at anytime anyway.

Suppose the Feds were going to bust you for fudging your taxes, while they are at they decided to search your home. They find copied CDs, dowloaded files, etc. So they just lump on additional penalties. Kind of like the way that some states enforce seat belt usage. Cops won't pull you over just for not wearing your seat belt, but if they pull you over for something else they just add on the fine for the seat belt violation.

Best,

Lance Man

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Post by Nothingman » Jun 6th 2003, 11:06 am

I don’t have a problem with using P2P software. I download software, music, and movies. One thing I notice is that we all seem to have designated our own boundaries with when it is justified and when it isn’t, myself included. The problem with this is the law doesn’t care and neither do the companies that produce the products we download.

Compare this to a marijuana smoker. A responsible smoker will determine when it is appropriate to get high, and how much they should smoke in a given instance. Just as a responsible drinker would do. Now there are plenty of people who smoke responsibly and are of no danger to themselves or others, but when the man comes knocking on their door it doesn’t matter. You can argue your case to the judge on how you are a responsible user until you are blue in the face, but it won’t make a bit of difference.

The only thing responsible P2P use will do is keep it out of the spotlight, and decrease its chances of becoming an even hotter issue. In other words we try not to piss the record companies off so that they keep the letters off of the lawmakers desks and the checks out of their pockets.

Generally, I don’t download stuff that I know I am going to buy. I still support all of my favorite bands by buying their cd. Most of the stuff I download is singles and not albums, for me it’s easier just to buy most of the albums than it is to download good copies of all the songs. I also get a lot of alternate versions that aren’t available for sale anyway. I download bootlegged movies before they come out on dvd, but rarely watch them more than once because of their low quality. I suppose that this decreases my video rentals slightly, but since they like to raise the price 25 cents every 6 months, I don’t care if they loose money. Last time I rented a dvd it was almost $4, and that was a Hastings where they give you a dollar credit if you bring it back the next day. Blockbuster is even worse, I’d rather watch one of my own movies again than support their ridiculousness. And most of the time if I liked the movie I end up renting it anyway, even if I have seen it on my computer. I do admit to having little control when it comes to software, it’s so expensive; I have no mercy and will download anything. Mostly games that I only play for a week or business software that I could never afford. However, I only use the business software for personal use, and not for anything my employer produces.
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Re: dowloading, file sharing, etc

Post by andrewgd » Jun 6th 2003, 2:06 pm

lance wrote:Andrewgd, that memo sounds pretty typical to me. I have worked for plenty of companies that have invoked a "loyalty clause".
Did you notice which company issued it though? It makes this memo even more special. :twisted:
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Re: dowloading, file sharing, etc

Post by ducksqueak » Jun 8th 2003, 11:04 am

lance wrote:The one possibility about file sharing and cd burning that might come about in John Ashcroft's America might be additional punishments for copyright infringment. With the good old Patriot Act the Feds can search your home at anytime anyway.

Suppose the Feds were going to bust you for fudging your taxes, while they are at they decided to search your home. They find copied CDs, dowloaded files, etc. So they just lump on additional penalties. Kind of like the way that some states enforce seat belt usage. Cops won't pull you over just for not wearing your seat belt, but if they pull you over for something else they just add on the fine for the seat belt violation.
This reminds me of a famous Supreme Court case, where cops came into someone's home for one charge, but then found pornography. This was illegal in their state. They went to jail for the porno. Sorry I don't remember the name.
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Post by FuzzyFreaky » Jun 16th 2003, 2:26 pm

I myself download mp3's and such but usually only to download hard to find remixes of certain songs. And when I do download full legnth albums, it's only to give the whole thing a listen to before I decide to shell out 20.00 bucks for it. I hate the fact that CD prices are skyrocketing and the RIAA is blaming file-sharing. It makes no sense. The economy is terrible right now and everyone's wondering why CD sales have gone down? Uhmmm... how about the simple fact that most people aren't willing to purchase something for 20 dollars that they might not even be happy with in the end (as stated by anyone using their brain)

Politicians need to get their facts straight and also need to stop thinking with their wallets.


P.s. I've shopped at Hastings when I was in vacation in AZ (I reside in Hawaii and we don't have a Hastings over here) and let me just say how much their prices suck. 10 Dollars for a used CD with a cracked case and no artwork? I can show you a CD-R drive that can produce the same thing.
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Post by lance » Jun 17th 2003, 12:21 pm

Hey all,

A friend of mine told me that CD sales were actually up during Napster's rise. The idea being that people having downloaded a song, played it and liked it then went out and bought the CD.

This is just total hearsay on my part, I have no statistics or links to back this up.

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Lance Man

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Post by Nothingman » Jun 17th 2003, 1:17 pm

Perhaps it's just me, but I find downloading an entire album to be a pain. I can think of 3 albums I've actually downloaded, and that’s out of the hundreds of CD's I own. I've copied a lot of albums, but that has nothing to do with file sharing via the internet. Copying CD's is no different than copies of tapes back in the day, the music industry is just upset that the advantage of switching to CD's and not being able to copy them is gone. It was a great way to trap consumers at first, but they had to know it was only a matter of time before we would be able to make our own. File sharing has stopped my need to buy various artist CD’s or buy a CD for only one song, most of which I would have lived without anyway, so it has made very little impact on my purchasing. I believe that direct copying of CD’s has made a much larger impact on the industry than file sharing has ever thought of doing, but since they can’t regulate that, they go after file sharing networks. I think the argument keeps coming back to the fact that I can make the same thing for 25 cents that I would pay $16 or $17 for at the store. The markup is incredible. I understand you are paying all the licensing fees and the producers and so on and not just cost of the product itself, but come on. Blank CD’s cost much less than blank tapes, yet they cost twice as much to purchase? That is just greed, plain and simple.
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Post by andrewgd » Jun 17th 2003, 3:25 pm

Nothingman wrote:Blank CD’s cost much less than blank tapes, yet they cost twice as much to purchase? That is just greed, plain and simple.
Such a great point! I hadn't thought of that before. If the price is at the point it is because of artist/producer/distribution costs, why are tapes much cheaper?
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Post by lance » Jun 17th 2003, 3:54 pm

andrewgd wrote:
Nothingman wrote:Blank CD’s cost much less than blank tapes, yet they cost twice as much to purchase? That is just greed, plain and simple.
Such a great point! I hadn't thought of that before. If the price is at the point it is because of artist/producer/distribution costs, why are tapes much cheaper?
Very true,

Granted audio tapes have a definate shelf life and tend to wear out much faster.

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Lance Man

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Post by Nothingman » Jun 17th 2003, 4:38 pm

The original reasoning behind CD’s costing more than tapes was:
1. They were the new thing.
2. There have better sound quality.
3. You can skip to any song you like.

That was over a decade ago, they are no longer new, and skipping to from one song is no longer novel, it is simply the standard. That leaves only the fact that they are of better sound quality. Well if that was really a big issue with consumers than we wouldn’t be supporting the MP3 market since they sound like crap compared to commercial WAV’s. The consumers have shown they don’t really care, at least not to the point of paying more for it. So, if none of these points are still a validation for charging more for a CD then why is it still going on? Normally new technology goes down in price after it’s initial debut, but CD’s continue to go up. I think the industry has become accustomed to this increase in profit and is unwilling to go back to the way things were (doesn't $7 or $9 sound more reasonable). Each person on the food chain from making a record to placing it on a store shelf has become fat from the extra profits, and no one wants to take a pay cut. Record companies have created a union of sorts and have stopped listening to their consumers. If they are no longer listening to us then why should we have any loyalty to them. Maybe the loss of sales will cause them to offer more competitive prices, since they refuse to compete amongst themselves.

Now what about your favorite artists, you’re hurting them right? Sort of, but not really. Your favorite bands don’t make squat off of your CD purchases. If you really want to support your favorite band then go on their website and buy concert tickets direct from them. They will receive 10 times the amount of money from you than they got from your purchase of all 7 of their CD’s. That’s how they make their money, why do you think so many artists encourage bootlegging of their shows? Hopefully by hearing them you will want to go to more of their shows, where they make their real money. Now granted, they do make some money off of CD’s, but the current level of file sharing is not at the point where it is really hurting them, and if you are feeling guilty about it, go on their website and order a t-shirt, that will more than make it up to them.
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Post by andrewgd » Jun 17th 2003, 5:47 pm

Wow, Metallica is trying its best to completely alienate its last fans:

http://arstechnica.com/archive/news/1055874246.html

The best part, they have now become hypocrites (and there's nothing worse than a hypocrite):
. . . the band thought they would really rock your socks off by instead releasing John Denver songs. . . .will the RIAA sue Metallica for undoubtedly sharing MP3s for which they have no license?
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Post by Nothingman » Jun 17th 2003, 6:02 pm

Metallica Rocks, but I do not agree with their opposition of P2p at all. Will someone please put a mussel on Lars and place him back in his kennel.
"To come to your senses, you must first go out of your mind." - Alan Watts

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Post by lance » Jun 18th 2003, 9:11 am

Argh,

Yeah Metallica definately rocks. Although I have heard bad things about their latest albulm. I don't think their stand on file sharing is going to win them any new fans, they may even lose a few.

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Lance Man

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