A complete about-turn

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starbug
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A complete about-turn

Post by starbug » Apr 15th 2003, 1:09 pm

Well I never thought I'd say this but....

I purchased Christina Aguilera's album this weekend and it's actually quite good :!: :oops:

There. I said it. The girl may be a skanky whore (Candygirl's words, I think...) but she can certainly belt out some good tunes, and her vocal control is quite incredible.

Feel free to ridicule me. I have slowly come to realise that I no longer give a damn about being 'cool' and so I'm just going to do what I do and like what I like, and sod what the rest of the world thinks!

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Re: A complete about-turn

Post by Megs » Apr 15th 2003, 1:38 pm

starbug wrote:Feel free to ridicule me. I have slowly come to realise that I no longer give a damn about being 'cool' and so I'm just going to do what I do and like what I like, and sod what the rest of the world thinks!
Word. I am almost to that point, as well. So I like Top 40, and not the more obscure, "cooler" music? To quote Jordan, 'So? So what?" :wink:

See my post in the lyrics thread. Very uncool quotes from uncool Top 40 artists. :lol:
"I have all these dreams where I know exactly what to say. And you tell me, you know, that you forgive me."

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Post by Natasha (candygirl) » Apr 15th 2003, 3:20 pm

What I have discovered is that the overwhelming urge to be "unique" or nonmainstream dissipates as you get older, and gradually you realize that it's okay to admit things like this. Or, as my friend puts it, you get old and embrace your geekdom :D

I never said Christina Aguilera can't sing. As a matter of fact, I have defended her singing ability on some other forums because I can separate her skankiness from her vocal cords. Britney Spears on the other hand? Can't sing without the aid of modern machines and wizardry. Even though I dislike Celine Dion, she can sing too. The problem that Christina Aguilera and Celine Dion have perpetuated with their incredible range is encouraging little girls to YELL instead of sing. It takes a lot of training and control to sing some of those notes using chest voice (versus head voice). This is similar to the Broadway belting Annie phenomenon that occurred when I was little. Newsflash to all aspiring singers - yelling is not the same as singing. A good vocal coach will discourage you from yelling an entire song.

A lot of those bubble gum pop girls are okay - meaning they aren't off pitch or terrible, but they aren't great either - good enough to get into an auditioned choir but not probably not good enough to get the solos at the annual concert. Just okay. Which is why I'm astounded at their success. Jessica Simpson? Meh. Mandy Moore? Meh. Half the kids on American Idol? Meh. Whenever I hear people like that, I remember several people I knew in high school who were MUCH more talented and sigh.

As far as boy bands are concerned, I know a lot of people dismiss them because they wear lame matching outfits and dance, but at least they can really sing and harmonize, unlike a LOT of people on the radio. I know there is the argument that some people prefer to hear "feeling" from singers (over technique), but there is no reason why a singer can't convey feeling AND be on pitch. Ex choir girl, over and out :wink:

Anyway, I totally understand what you're saying. This from a girl who wore all black and listened to Echo and the Bunnymen in middle school (much to the consternation of my parents). Now I just don't give a damn.

Which probably means all the teenagers at the mall probably point and laugh at me now, but hey I'm happy with myself.
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Post by ducksqueak » Apr 15th 2003, 10:45 pm

I have to say that this was Christina Aguilera's best ablum yet. (This is coming from a voice teacher and aspiring opera singer.) What I like about it is that every song is different. There are in different styles and convey different emotions. I also think it's the first time Christina has been allowed to really sing. That "Genie in a Bottle" garbage was not her real voice. They actually asked her to sing less then. So I give Christina a lot of credit for putting her success @ risk just by being who she really is. Maybe the skanky outfit thing isn't something that I like, but if it's her, just let it be. At least she is being real, as oppossed to Britney, who is the FAKEST person in the world. So maybe if you don't like Christina, you should still respect her.

I used to think I didn't prescribe to the whole teen pop music thing, but then I realized that I listen to the radio a lot and actually enjoy some songs. But I try to have a healthy mix of what I listen to. I listen to top 40, jazz, opera, rock, musical theater....almost anything. I think you just need to be personally happy with what you listen to. If your music satisfies you, then who cares what others think. So go listen to Christina or *N Sync's "No Strings Attached," (I own it.) or Lambert, Hendrix, and Ross; or Maria Callas, or Nirvana. It's all the same. Be proud of what you like.
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Post by starbug » Apr 16th 2003, 5:18 am

candygirl wrote:What I have discovered is that the overwhelming urge to be "unique" or nonmainstream dissipates as you get older, and gradually you realize that it's okay to admit things like this. Or, as my friend puts it, you get old and embrace your geekdom :D
Exactly :D
candygirl wrote: I never said Christina Aguilera can't sing. As a matter of fact, I have defended her singing ability on some other forums because I can separate her skankiness from her vocal cords. Britney Spears on the other hand? Can't sing without the aid of modern machines and wizardry.
I know you never said she couldn't sing - you did say she was a skanky whore (or something similar) which is what I was referring to. I agree :wink:
candygirl wrote: A lot of those bubble gum pop girls are okay - meaning they aren't off pitch or terrible, but they aren't great either - good enough to get into an auditioned choir but not probably not good enough to get the solos at the annual concert. Just okay. Which is why I'm astounded at their success. Jessica Simpson? Meh. Mandy Moore? Meh. Half the kids on American Idol? Meh. Whenever I hear people like that, I remember several people I knew in high school who were MUCH more talented and sigh.
Too right. It's not fair - some people get the break and others who are far better either don't want it or don't get it. I went to a pub in London a while ago and randomly they had live music on. Just a guy, his guitar and his amp. And he beat any person in the charts into the ground with his ability.

There's a song out over here by someone (I think a girl called Delta Goodrum or something like that) and the song is fine, she can definitely sing. Except for this one note which is quite high and she just can't hit it properly. She's pushing too hard and you can tell that whoever wrote the song thought it would be all dramatic and a rousing element to the song but in my opinion they should have never put it in as she clearly can't hit the note. Out comes this horrible sort of scream instead... bleugh.
candygirl wrote: Which probably means all the teenagers at the mall probably point and laugh at me now, but hey I'm happy with myself.
Hehe :) Yeah. Me too.

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Post by Natasha (candygirl) » Apr 16th 2003, 1:21 pm

What I don't understand is that since Christina Aguilera CAN sing, why would she make herself over as such a trollop? I can see the other girls doing it since they really don't have much else to offer besides prancing around in skimpy clothes.

P.S. Despite what I have said, sometimes I can't get that Britney Spears "I'm a Slaaaaaave" song out of my head!

:oops:

The first time I saw the video, I called my friend and asked, "Is she wearing her underpants OVER her pants?"
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Post by Nothingman » Apr 16th 2003, 1:56 pm

My main turn off regarding the teeny bopper singers, is not their ability, but the content of their songs. I call them "singers", because unless you can write your own songs and play at least one instrument other than a kazoo, I don't consider you an "artist". I don't care to relate to a lot of what they sing about. I also have noticed that as we grow older, we tend to listen to less complex music, in terms of music that makes you think. Sure we still listen to our old favorites from our youth, but the thinking has been done there. Music like mainstream country or teen pop, requires little brain power to process, the messages are easy to grasp the first or second time you hear the song, the lyrics are easy to understand. As we age our desire to find the deeper meaning, and question everything, lessens, and I think our music tastes change to reflect that. Not to say that we are any less intelligent for listening to these songs, because music is all about how it makes you feel anyway. So if turning up the latest Christina Aguilera song and screaming along with it at the top of your lungs makes you happy, I say go for it. I'd just prefer that I'm not in the passenger seat.

I do have to respect them though; some of them have incredible ability. Others like Britney seem to get by on sex appeal. Marketing to 14 yr olds, is just too easy. When I’m subjected to watching Star Search, it seems like cute girls that can sing are a dime a dozen. Unless they have an amazing voice that sets them apart from the rest, they are just “vanilla”, available at “Anytown, USA”. I’ll take the girl who maybe can’t sing quite as well, but has a unique voice and plays her own songs on her own guitar, over the singing princess any day. And I’ve seen the judges make the same decision.
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Post by Natasha (candygirl) » Apr 16th 2003, 2:28 pm

There is definitely a difference between someone who writes their own songs and someone who sings songs that other people write, in terms of artistry BUT I would prefer to hear Lea Salonga sing something from Miss Saigon (which she definitely had no hand in writing) than listen to Sheryl Crow sing her latest song. Why? Because I can't stand Sheryl Crow's voice.

To be fair, people like Whitney Houston (who I think is really annoying, both as a celebrity and as a singer) and Celine Dion (another singer I'm not fond of) have great voices and it really doesn't matter if they sing the alphabet, the phone book, or remake other people's songs.

In contrast, think what you want about John Mayer or Jack Johnson's songwriting abilities, but they aren't great singers.

Heck, even Britney Spears and Avril Levigne "write" their own songs. I don't think that makes them any better or worse than Jewel, Shania Twain, Madonna, Diana Ross (and yes, I realize that some of these people write their own songs and some do not). I love Ella Fitzgerald, but how many of those songs did she write?

Another interesting aspect of this is that writing a song can mean different things - did you come up with the melody or did you think of the lyrics? Or did you just come up with a really cool beat on your drum machine? Although I can't prove it (since the liner notes often just credit everyone involved), I have a sneaking suspicion that some artists who say that they write their own songs have very minimal input.

Madonna and Avril Levigne can both play the guitar (or so they keep claiming), but again this doesn't make them any more or less appealing to me.

Singing in itself is a talent separate from playing an instrument or composing music and I don't think that a good singer should be looked down upon simply because they have a talent for singing but not playing an instrument or writing songs - we don't criticize John Williams or Yo-Yo Ma because they can't sing.

I like a mixture of different things (which is why I like different singers/musical acts/whatever you want to call them), but singing on pitch with more than two notes is key. That is why (as I duck to avoid what will be thrown at me for saying this) I don't really like Nirvana. Now imagine me saying that in college at the height of grunge!

Interestingly, we don't have this double standard (requiring an "artist" to create their own material) for actors. We are content to let someone dress them up, tell them where to stand, what to say, and how to say it without blinking an eye - and then congratulate them.

I really don't think that there is anything wrong with being a great singer and not writing your own songs (especially when "writing your own songs" explains lyrics like "he was a boy, she was a girl, could I make it any more obvious"). I believe that the record labels thought letting singers write some of their own songs meant saving money, cutting corners (since most record labels used to employ people specifically to churn out hits for their stars) and now everyone wants to claim that they too are serious musicians.

I agree that as we get older, we don't want to think when we listen to music. Why? Because we think all day - about our jobs, our spouses, our mortgages, our kids, putting our parents in nursing homes, death, suffering, pain - all kinds of stuff that makes us want something happy to cheer us up and let us spend three minutes NOT thinking. Sometimes that means the Beatles, sometimes that means Britney Spears. Honestly, even the songs from my youth that used to make me think have become songs that I sing along with - without thinking about what every word means. Every once in a while my friends and I realize what words just came out of our mouths as we were mindlessly singing along and we reconnect with the song.
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Post by ducksqueak » Apr 19th 2003, 11:52 am

candygirl wrote:Singing in itself is a talent separate from playing an instrument or composing music and I don't think that a good singer should be looked down upon simply because they have a talent for singing but not playing an instrument or writing songs - we don't criticize John Williams or Yo-Yo Ma because they can't sing.
My thoughts exactly.

Think about the great classical singers of today: Kathleen Battle, Lauren Flannigan, the three tenors, etc. They don't write their own songs. Most of the songs they sing are from composers who lived centuries ago. Do we criticize them for never taking a pen to the staff? They are famous because they sing songs written by other people with such a unique artistry and sound that you are moved when you hear them. (Also, most of them don't play another instrument.)

As a singer myself, I don't criticize the pop stars about not writing their own music because I can't do it myself. I'm even studying music in college. I would never think to try to write a song because it would be far less superior than the music of the composers that I like to perform. People are musically inclined in different ways. Some people are great storytellers when they perform, or they can improvise, or write incredible music, or are great at providing background support. (There is no shame!) I think some people don't realize how hard it is to write a song, even a catchy pop song. Writing and composing is not something that comes easily to most people.

Pop stars discredit themselves when they can't perform the songs well. If you need to dance to hide the fact that you have no artistry or vocal ability, that is where you lose my respect.
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Post by SanDeE* » Apr 20th 2003, 6:35 pm

I agree with what has already been said about singing and composing.

I'm studying music composition at a conservatory, and I witness singers getting a lot of flack. I'm not in the vocal departments here at school at all, but I do like to sing sometimes, and I sang in a professional band before coming to college, so I'm a pretty good singer. I took voice lessons last year here at school, but it was jazz vocals, not your standard stuff. I can respect how hard singing can be, especially opera I would imagine, and development of your range.

Here at my school, the reason the singers get made fun of is because the instrumentalists (most of them) don't consider singers to be real musicians. Do singers sit in practice rooms upwards of at least three hours a day practicing? No. 99% of the time singers are the ones asking questions in Music Theory classes. Instrumentalists are very self-righteous and cocky when it comes to knowledge of and dedication to music. But I have friends that are from both groups - singers & instrumentalists - and they are all just as smart and dedicated as everyone else. Sometimes it's refreshing to hang with singers because they don't always talk about playing their horn or what have you.

One time, however, I was sitting down to lunch at the univ. center with a percussionist and three trumpet players. A singer-friend of ours sits down and proceeds to begin an argument that singing is harder than playing trumpet. In front of THREE trumpet players. She was losing her argument horribly, and the whole time I was thinking in my head, Just stop talking about this! You should have known better than to start this debate with trumpet players! Singing and playing the trumpet are so different, how can you possibly compare their difficulty level with one another? Maybe trumpet to tuba, or violin to cello. But singing to an instrument is like apples to oranges. They are different in different ways, both hard in their own way.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that as long as the musician - singer, instrumentalist, or composer - is dedicated and passionate about what they are doing, I have respect for them. Every musician is different and every school is different so I'm not saying what I see at my school happens everywhere. I don't know. Maybe I just need this semester to end and I'm ranting!
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Post by starbug » Apr 23rd 2003, 6:36 am

candygirl wrote:trollop
:D Haven't heard that word in ages! Thanks for making me giggle on my first day back at work for a week. :D

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Post by lance » Apr 23rd 2003, 11:56 am

starbug wrote:
candygirl wrote:trollop
:D Haven't heard that word in ages! Thanks for making me giggle on my first day back at work for a week. :D
Definately LOL!

Best,

Lance Man

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Post by Natasha (candygirl) » Apr 23rd 2003, 1:57 pm

I will gladly discuss/insult Christina Aguilera's appearance and image any day solely for your amusement!

:wink:
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