Mglenn wrote:
Lance, first off I'm really enjoying these discussion so feel free to go for the juggler in your arguments. Keeps me on my toes. I don't like to believe in something with out an understanding of it. These discussions put my views to the test and force me to make sure I understand all the implications of them.
Now on to the good stuff:
lance wrote:
Try something just for a moment. Try not to think of this debate in terms of an assault on Christianity or some wild calculated attempt by weird Lefties to take your bible away. Try not to think of this as PC run amok. Rather try to think of this as a sensitivity issue. You don't have to agree with Hindus or Jews or Catholics or Muslims or Baptists to respect their space to be who they are. In respecting their space you are respecting your own space. Just try the impossible difficult task of seeing things from another persons point of view.
mglenn wrote:
The facts do not support that though. The attack is on christianity! When the gay and lesbians at Pitt had their cu*t Fest and people were offended and demanded that the School stop supporting such things, the left labled is as a restriction of their freedom of speach. But yet when a group promoting abstanence tried to stage a rally the school refused them say that it was religious in nature.
You can't have it both ways. Am I offended by what I've heard about cu*t Fest? Yes! Do I think they should be allowed to have their festival? Yes! Do I think the school should be supporting it? No! Should the abstanence group be allowed? Yes! Should the school support them? No!
Dude you are reporting anecdotal evidence of a single incident. One incident does not a national attack make. Also my point was not an amorphous “other” respect, or try to, people’s individual space but you are an individual. So in this regard I am not try to have anything both ways.
Can you provide more details about “cu*t Fest”? What “people” were offended by “what” specifically? What did the Fest involve? I agree with you that the school should not have restricted a group of students (they were students right?) from excercising their point of view on a particular topic
mglenn wrote:
The schools sole responsiblity is to teach them that 2+2=4! Not to support social agendas!
Agreed! I won’t push my social agenda on PUBLIC school students if you won’t push yours. There lies my point. NO ONE’S religious point of view should be placed upon PUBLIC school students.
lance wrote:
What about something more blatant: school prayer? Your fellow students are participating in prayer in class during school hours. Now what do you do? Do you just sort of mumble along just to fit in? Do you leave the room and therefore have to explain why you don't believe in their God? What do you say to your parents if they found out?
mglenn wrote:
So lets look at it in a slightly different context. Say you sitting in a dinner and I'm in the booth across from you. You and I get our food at the same time and I bow my head and say grace. Does this offend you? So what if it does? What effect does it have on the rest of your day or life?
Again dude, different context completely. I and you are both adults in a “dinner”, not a public school, if you want to pray that’s your progative and if the guy next you doesn’t that’s his deal
mglenn wrote:
You keep making the argument that some ones feelings will be hurt. Do you believe that doing away with all this that peoples feelings will no longer be hurt?
Absolutely not. However, in a public school setting if the question of religion is off the table the classroom will be a more inviting place for those of varied religious backgrounds.
Quote:
If you can understand the awkwardness and pressure people of "other" faiths may feel maybe you might understand
mglenn wrote:
I was made fun of and ashamed of for a whole lot of things in high school. The summer before 9th grade I received 3rd degree burns over 21% of my body. I had to where special graments, to cover the burns so that the would not scar, for well over a year. Now if you want to talk about humiliation try going through high school looking like a cripple. Religious beliefs don't have to be brought up. I didn't have a choice on whether or not my differences were known. How did I do it? Well first I could explain why I had to wear them. Second I demanded respect. If someone started to make fun and continued after a discription of what I went through I got in their face and didn't back down. I only ever got into two fights in high school and both were with guys that were total idiots.
Ouch. Sorry to hear about that.
lance wrote:
The constitution originally sanctioned slavery afterall.
mglenn wrote:
We could spin this off into another whole discussion. But it is blatantly apparent to everyone of us that the colored guy next to us is just as much human as anyone else and deserves the same treatment. Its not even in the same class here. No one is being forced to do anything here against their will.
Ahh but there in lies the rub. At one point it in our history it was apparent to the majority of white Americans that blacks couldn’t possible date white women, have mixed children, hold certain jobs, drink from the same water fountains.
Yes in some classrooms, noticeable in the South students are being allowed to read prayers in classrooms, over the PA despite Supreme Court rulings to the contrary, this stuff still goes on with our tax dollars.
lance wrote:
But just because it was in the constitution does that mean that today we as modern citizens need to endorse it.
Quote:
Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes... -Declaration of Independence
mglenn wrote:
The facts are childhood ends! You grow up and grow a thick skin against offences to your beliefs. The key is understanding your beliefs not restricting other people's so you don't have to think about yours. Besides the fact that your situations all require that the offended misunderstand the intended meaning, the change you request is still "light and transient", As it will not end end the humiliation we all experience during our childhood.
Roger that, childhood does end. The fact remains that the 42 million odd Public school studends are not 100% White Anglo Saxon Protestants, this is not a “light and transient” point. This is a huge demographic and societal shift. Some of us have accepted this point, some are beginning and to and some may never. That’s fine as long as one religious point of view is not advocated in a Public school setting.