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If you want to share some events in your life or thoughts about life in general with other MSCL fans or if you just want post a rant to let some steam off - this is the place.
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Nothingman
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Post by Nothingman » Oct 15th 2004, 4:17 pm

First, starbug’s friend. I see two things that are hindering her ability to find a relationship, and they are kind of connected. First, Mr. S was right that she appears desperate and lacking self esteem. The other is she’s sending the wrong messages. Playing the role of the party girl tells us that you’re out to hook up for a good time, so that’s what we do. If I’m a guy who’s just looking to get laid, then she’s an ideal candidate. She’s got the party girl vibe going so she probably knows what’s going on and is ok with it. Also, I’m also going to be successful tonight, or not at all, so I won’t have to go on several dates for her to decide if she likes me or not. Then add in the low self esteem and I’m home free. As a guy, I am looking for a woman with low self esteem so that I may prey on that so that she’ll even have sex with me. These are the messages she’s giving off, so those are the guys she’s attracting.

Her first priority should be to work on her, to improve her self image. If you’re not happy with you, and value yourself, why am I going to? I’m not sure how to combat the desperation vibe for women. With men, you get them laid, often with someone who’s not all that attractive, just so they don’t come across as needy. But since women’s primary goal is a relationship, I’m not sure how you’d go about satisfying that need so they can look for someone objectively. My best guess is if she had multiple plates spinning, meaning not concentrating all her efforts on one guy, she wouldn’t overload her current infatuation. This would also demonstrate to other guys that she is in demand, there by making her more attractive. In addition, by having guys compete for her, she’d feel that she has value and help her self confidence. This would create a new cycle that feeds on itself that should break the old one.

Most guys don’t like needy women; we want a little bit of a challenge so that we can feel like we caught something special. Needy in terms of sex is great, needy in terms of calling us all the time; wanting our presence and our attention constantly is what we object to. We want to know that you have your own life too, that you are there when we need for companionship and to enjoy your company, but if we leave you alone your not sitting in you apartment waiting for us to call. I’d suggest she needs to adopt the attitude that she’s had her fun and that she’d like to settle down with someone but she’s not out there trying to make every relationship into “the relationship” and until that person comes along, she’ll take care of any needs she may have and have confidence it will happen. She’s going to keep having problems if she keeps jumping into every relationship that has potential. We want to think that the relationship thing is our idea, that we are lucky to lock you in. The tough part is we move much slower than you’d like us too, as soon as you pressure us into it we want to run.
starbug wrote:It's all so soul-destroying because she really does deserve happiness... and the men/women relationship incompatibility so startlingly outlined by Nothingman basically prevents that from happening.
Keep in mind that what I was outlining was in regard to dating, not long term relationships. There is hope yet.
starbug wrote:They sleep together. Man either decides a) sex was fab - more please, and actually you're quite lovely. or b) sex was awful, and you're OK but not nice enough for me to bother.
option a) results in relationship. woman happy, man happy.
option b) results in dumpster. man happy, woman feels used.

But on this hypothesis, it simply isn't possible for the man to be unhappy. Discuss.
In (a) we get sex and emotional intimacy, in (b) we just get sex. In both cases we are happy, but those aren’t the only possibilities. This raises a great point. Men don’t have to have sex to become emotionally involved, because we can separate the two we simply try to have it occur in that order. Let us turn the tables for a moment. Whenever we have a crush on someone we let emotional intimacy come first. So man has crush on women, and develops feelings for her. Woman likes attention, strings man along for more attention, or money or whatever she’s after. Man wants to have sex with women, women has no interest in sex, just attention. Man leaves frustrated feeling used. Woman is happy and moves on to next man who will give her attention. This is why men want sex first, so we don’t get ourselves into this position. Men run the risk of being used for money and attention and women run the risk of being used for sex, there by setting up the whole nature of the game.
"To come to your senses, you must first go out of your mind." - Alan Watts

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Nostradamus
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Post by Nostradamus » Oct 15th 2004, 10:20 pm

Fascinating thread, everyone.

:)

Probably one of the core issues that underlies this whole mess is honesty. Most people don't tell big bad lies about horrible secrets, but they do get in the habit of telling lots of little white lies to avoid embarrassment or giving offence. Over time, these seemingly insignificant fibs can lead to a big gap between what you say and what you mean, and this gap in turn leads to disastrous relationships. It may take balls of steel (or whatever the female equivalent is :P), but if you can be completely honest from the start of a relationship you will save yourself a lot of trouble down the road.

Think of it like this: Go through the following list and check which items you want and which you don't, then try to make sure that your significant other knows all about your choices.
  • Friendship
    Romance
    Sex
    Long-Term Relationship
    Co-Habitation
    Marriage
    Children
    Mucho $$$ from the Divorce Settlement
    Other (fill in the blank)
:wink:
I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure.
-- Clarence Darrow

I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it.
-- Mark Twain

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Post by SanDeE* » Oct 16th 2004, 11:18 am

As soon as she stops looking for a guy and starts focusing on being happy and satisfied with herself, someone great and deserving of her will come along.
Um, in my room, one seam is a little off and I stare at it constantly. It's, like, destroying me.

~~Kristin~~

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Post by lance » Oct 18th 2004, 10:48 pm

Nostradamus wrote:
Kristin wrote:My biggest problem is I can't tell whether a guy really truly likes me for ME and my personality, or just wants to have sex with me. That's a tough one. (mscl guys? any thoughts/insights?)
They all want to have sex with you; the question is which ones also like your personality.

:wink:
Much truth here. Everyone here has had such wonderful thoughts and opinions that I find it difficult to add to what has already been said but here goes. In my experience guys approach women like this.

Sex?

If no Sex immediately possible ascertain as to whether Sex is possible later.

If Sex is out of the question for all time the determination is then made as to where in the guy's universe the woman in question may fall. Acquaintence? Friend? Friend of Friend? Close friend? Confidant? Possible network source to other women?

-LanceMan

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Post by Nostradamus » Oct 19th 2004, 6:26 am

lance wrote:Possible network source to other women?

-LanceMan
:lol:

You know she's gotta have a hot friend somewhere...

:-P
I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure.
-- Clarence Darrow

I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it.
-- Mark Twain

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Post by SanDeE* » Oct 19th 2004, 11:36 am

Well, if she's hot she'll probably have some hot friends.

Maybe I just have some weird view of myself, but it just surprises the hell outta me when a guy wants to have sex with me. Not that I think I'm not an attractive person... I've just always thought of myself as "one of the guys." So, maybe the guys would want to sleep with another girl before me. I haven't recognized that they see me as a possibility too.

Another reason could be that I feel that I've always had to work to get a guy interested in me. I've always been the pursuer in every relationship I've had. So, maybe I'm just really comfortable with that role, and haven't been on the other side, pursued, before recently. So... I'm learning a lot right now you could say! Thanks for the input, guys.
Um, in my room, one seam is a little off and I stare at it constantly. It's, like, destroying me.

~~Kristin~~

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lance
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Post by lance » Oct 20th 2004, 8:34 pm

Kristin wrote:Well, if she's hot she'll probably have some hot friends.

Maybe I just have some weird view of myself, but it just surprises the hell outta me when a guy wants to have sex with me. Not that I think I'm not an attractive person... I've just always thought of myself as "one of the guys." So, maybe the guys would want to sleep with another girl before me. I haven't recognized that they see me as a possibility too.

Another reason could be that I feel that I've always had to work to get a guy interested in me. I've always been the pursuer in every relationship I've had. So, maybe I'm just really comfortable with that role, and haven't been on the other side, pursued, before recently. So... I'm learning a lot right now you could say! Thanks for the input, guys.
Definately a lot, a lot or work involved.

-LanceMan

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Post by emmie » Oct 20th 2004, 9:47 pm

Kristin wrote:Well, if she's hot she'll probably have some hot friends.

Maybe I just have some weird view of myself, but it just surprises the hell outta me when a guy wants to have sex with me. Not that I think I'm not an attractive person... I've just always thought of myself as "one of the guys." So, maybe the guys would want to sleep with another girl before me. I haven't recognized that they see me as a possibility too.

Another reason could be that I feel that I've always had to work to get a guy interested in me. I've always been the pursuer in every relationship I've had. So, maybe I'm just really comfortable with that role, and haven't been on the other side, pursued, before recently. So... I'm learning a lot right now you could say! Thanks for the input, guys.
I see myself the same way Kristin. I feel very comfortable hanging out with guys. mostly because that's who I am surrounded by at work and school. and they usually feel very comfortable with me and talking about their dates and things. and though I realize, even more now because of this thread, that guys would willingly sleep with me, I don't think they see me as a girl. and therefore, not datable material. this is also where miscommunication occurs. I've become so used to this role as the friend and "one of the guys," that I don't recognize when a guy is actually flirting with me. I simply assume that he is just joking around with his gal pal. I have absolutely no radar for come-on signals.

on a slightly different note.....the only male friend of mine to develop feelings for me, years ago, admitted to me that he had waited so long to take action because I intimidated him. which is laughable because I'm quiet and he's very outgoing. and this is a point that really bugs me because I'm not exactly sure I believe him. how can a guy be extremely outgoing to the point of being the most popular in a circle of friends, be able to walk up to and talk with pretty girls he's never met before, but yet be intimidated by me?! I just don't understand. is it because it's easier to approach strangers than embarrass yourself with a girl you know? that's the only thing I can come up with.

I'm extremely frustrated right now. I'm interested in this guy in my class and everyone loves him and he's very funny and outgoing, blah blah blah. and even with my bad perception, I really do think he is flirting with me. whenever we work together, he always joins my group. and he's always touching me somehow, like playing with my hair clips or arm or shoulder. and in the past week, he'll just give me random hugs. things he's not really doing with the other girls. yet, the other day he was telling me about a party he went to, and how he was shot down by a few girls. so, if he's flirting with me, why the hell would he talk to me about asking out other girls? blarghh!!!

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Post by starbug » Oct 21st 2004, 4:56 am

emmie wrote:I just don't understand. is it because it's easier to approach strangers than embarrass yourself with a girl you know? that's the only thing I can come up with.
Well, not being a guy....... I'd say that if they're friends with you already, they probably value your friendship and don't want to ruin it. They will see the potential of getting involved, getting hurt etc, breaking up, as ruining a perfectly good friendship. Making the move will effectively wave a big red flag that means there's a whole new dynamic to your friendship, which you might not want, so you might cut them out of being friends. In any case, they're afraid it will be weird. I think that regardless of how quiet you are or how outgoing they are, it takes guts to wade in and declare your feelings to someone you value.
I've had this experience. Someone waited a year to tell me how they felt because they didn't want to ruin a good friendship and they weren't sure how I felt.

emmie wrote:yet, the other day he was telling me about a party he went to, and how he was shot down by a few girls. so, if he's flirting with me, why the hell would he talk to me about asking out other girls? blarghh!!!
To let you know he's on the market and actively looking :?: He wants to appear 'available'.

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Post by SanDeE* » Oct 21st 2004, 11:01 am

emmie wrote:the only male friend of mine to develop feelings for me, years ago, admitted to me that he had waited so long to take action because I intimidated him.
This same thing happened to me this past summer. I worked with this one guy all summer, and about a week before I had to leave for school this guy started showing a lot of interest. I told him I wasn't interested in just a little fling, I think of you as a friend/co-worker, why didn't you come up to me earlier in the summer so we could have been friends? blah blah blah. He said that he didn't approach me earlier because I intimidated him. You know, I love men, but I get the impression that the whole "I was intimidated" thing is just a line they throw at you to make you feel like you're powerful, confident, amazing, stunning, more beautiful than they think they deserve to be with. I think it's just a line. Of course, you've known the guy who said that to you for a while, so... in that case I'm not sure. But I think he can't be intimidated by you because you are friends. If he was intimidated, you two would have never developed a friendship in the first place. I'm skeptical about guys saying "I was intimidated by you."
Sorry to be negative about that phrase!

so, if he's flirting with me, why the hell would he talk to me about asking out other girls? blarghh!!!
I agree with starbug on this one. He wants to appear "in demand" and desirable to you. Like, "you better take advantage of me being so in demand before I'm snatched up by someone else!" He wants to get you nice and curious and/or jealous. That's not necessarily a bad thing, it's just kinda funny. Again, this same thing happened to me over the summer. I was hanging out with a guy (different from other guy I mentioned above) I've known for about four years. I have to admit, the friendship developed out of a mututal crush, but nothing happened romantically/physically. Anyway, this past summer we were hanging out one night and he was telling me about how all these chicks wanted him recently. I was like, hey man - go for it! I didn't think twice about it, I didn't analyze, nothing. Then, a little later he tried to kiss me. !!!! I couldn't believe it. What was he doing telling be about all these other chicks, then he tries to kiss me? But I get it now. He wanted me to know what hot stuff he is. I think it's humorous because... yeah guys, that's really a great way to get me to want you. Tell me how you are trying to get with other girls, that's exactly what I want to hear before I jump into bed with you. [/sarcasm]
Um, in my room, one seam is a little off and I stare at it constantly. It's, like, destroying me.

~~Kristin~~

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Post by Nostradamus » Oct 21st 2004, 11:31 am

Kristin wrote:I'm skeptical about guys saying "I was intimidated by you."
I can't speak for all guys on this one, but attractive young ladies scare the hell out of me!

:oops:

Now, I couldn't care less what color the Terror Alert is today, and the latest news of SARS inspires little more that a yawn, but wait, is that pretty lady flirting with me? AUGH!!! Jesus! It's the end of the world! RUN AWAAAY!!!

:lol:

So, some guys, yeah it happens...

:wink:
I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure.
-- Clarence Darrow

I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it.
-- Mark Twain

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Post by Nothingman » Oct 21st 2004, 12:08 pm

Kristin wrote:I've just always thought of myself as "one of the guys." So, maybe the guys would want to sleep with another girl before me. I haven't recognized that they see me as a possibility too.
Well, they might want to sleep with someone else before you, but it doesn’t mean they don’t want to sleep with you. Close friends may like to have sex with you, but it’s often much more complicated to create the right circumstances, because it would often affect more people than just you and him since everyone’s lives get intertwined in the group and you have to way their responses to it.
emmie wrote:I just don't understand. is it because it's easier to approach strangers than embarrass yourself with a girl you know? that's the only thing I can come up with.
I agree with starbug’s statements on this one. It comes back to something I said before about getting emotionally involved before being physically involved. He’s built you up in his head, placed you on a pedestal. Now he’s got all these fantasies of how it would be dating you that it’s a lot to risk to try and make it a reality. Also, if he’s dating other girls, but the emotional aspect of his life is unfulfilled, then the possibility of being with you is what’s keeping him going. If pursues you and you reject him, now he’s got nothing to fill that void, he’s lost a friend, and possibly endangered other relationships within the group because things might become weird between you too. When talking to strangers you aren’t really risking anything but your own ego, but with pursuing you the stakes would be much higher. Make sense?
Rickie : She's not saying that she...
Angela : I'm not saying...see there's thinking about him, right?
which is what I do. All the time. Like this...
Rickie : Obsession.
Rayanne : Right. So?
Angela : So, it keeps me going or something. Like I need it just to
get through the day. It...It's just ...
Rickie : It's an obsession.
Angela : Right. And, and if you make it real, it's it's not the same.
It's not, it's not yours anymore. I don't know, maybe I'd rather
have the fantasy than even him.
Rickie : I completely understand this.
Rayanne : I totally and completely disagree. You want Jordan Catalano in actuality because...there is no because. You just want him.
Only you're programmed to never admit it.
Rickie : That does have the ring of truth.
emmie wrote:I'm extremely frustrated right now. I'm interested in this guy in my class and everyone loves him and he's very funny and outgoing, blah blah blah. and even with my bad perception, I really do think he is flirting with me. whenever we work together, he always joins my group. and he's always touching me somehow, like playing with my hair clips or arm or shoulder. and in the past week, he'll just give me random hugs. things he's not really doing with the other girls. yet, the other day he was telling me about a party he went to, and how he was shot down by a few girls. so, if he's flirting with me, why the hell would he talk to me about asking out other girls? blarghh!!!
He IS interested in you! When he touches you, touch him back. Let him know you’re ok with his presence. It’s called Kinesthetics and its powerful stuff. Starbug nailed it, he told you about being shot down by other girls because he wants you to know he’s looking for someone, hint, hint. He did a horrible job of demonstrating market value though, kind of like saying “My car is a lemon. Want to buy it?” Get him talking about movies he wants to see or restraunts he’s been meaning to try, then show mutual interest in those things, whether you are or not. Or ask him what his big plans for the weekend are, and when he doesn’t have any, tell him you don’t either, and you get tired of doing the same stuff with the same people. Give the poor kid a window to ask you out.

(This has become my new favorite thread.)

edited for spelling
"To come to your senses, you must first go out of your mind." - Alan Watts

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Post by grim4746 » Oct 21st 2004, 1:23 pm

emmie wrote: I don't think they see me as a girl. and therefore, not datable material. this is also where miscommunication occurs. I've become so used to this role as the friend and "one of the guys," that I don't recognize when a guy is actually flirting with me. I simply assume that he is just joking around with his gal pal. I have absolutely no radar for come-on signals.

on a slightly different note.....the only male friend of mine to develop feelings for me, years ago, admitted to me that he had waited so long to take action because I intimidated him. which is laughable because I'm quiet and he's very outgoing. and this is a point that really bugs me because I'm not exactly sure I believe him. how can a guy be extremely outgoing to the point of being the most popular in a circle of friends, be able to walk up to and talk with pretty girls he's never met before, but yet be intimidated by me?! I just don't understand. is it because it's easier to approach strangers than embarrass yourself with a girl you know? that's the only thing I can come up with.
From my experience when a girl thinks she's one of the guys it's not the case. Usually more than one of the guys in the groups is hot for this girl. That is also a reason that it sometimes takes awhile for these guys to make a move. They wait until it gets to the point where they are interested enough that it's worth causing a messy situtation with the other guy(s) who like you. Maybe this guy said he was intimidated because he's not the only one interested but didn't want to let you know you could have your pick of any of them.
Nostradamus wrote:I can't speak for all guys on this one, but attractive young ladies scare the hell out of me!
I absolutely agree. I'm not even into the ladies but if an attractive woman shows an interest in me I get goofy and awkward. I can't explain it. it's a weird minor annoyance. I'm sure it's only intensified for the guys who are actually hoping to get somewhere with these women.

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Post by SanDeE* » Oct 21st 2004, 2:35 pm

Kristin wrote:You know, I love men, but I get the impression that the whole "I was intimidated" thing is just a line they throw at you to make you feel like you're powerful, confident, amazing, stunning, more beautiful than they think they deserve to be with. I think it's just a line ... I'm skeptical about guys saying "I was intimidated by you."
All right, maybe I feel that way about it because I do believe this guy who said it to me wasn't really so interested in me, just sex. I don't understand why pretty girls scare off guys. Are a lot of them jerks to men? I guess I've always associated the word intimidate with words like bully and threaten. I guess have a negative association. Why can't a guy say, "I was anxious/apprehensive/nervous about approaching you because I find you so attractive"? That's more truthful, I think. What is a pretty girl doing to bully or threaten a guy other than being pretty? "You better date me or else because I'm pretty!"

Nothingman wrote:
Kristin wrote:I've just always thought of myself as "one of the guys." So, maybe the guys would want to sleep with another girl before me. I haven't recognized that they see me as a possibility too.
Well, they might want to sleep with someone else before you, but it doesn't mean they don't want to sleep with you.
I just want to clear this up ---- I haven't been pining away hoping that my male friends want to sleep with me. I don't think about it. It truly has never crossed my mind. I certainly admit that they are very attractive men, I just considered them to be off-limits because we've established ourselves as friends. Of course they want to sleep with another girl before me! That's great - I'm glad for them! I'm not jealous at all of their girlfriends. It's like these guys are my brothers: my great-looking brothers that I'm not blood-related to. I think I have too many male friends and not enough female friends, to be honest. :cry:
Um, in my room, one seam is a little off and I stare at it constantly. It's, like, destroying me.

~~Kristin~~

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Post by SanDeE* » Oct 21st 2004, 2:39 pm

grim4746 wrote:I'm not even into the ladies but if an attractive woman shows an interest in me I get goofy and awkward. I can't explain it. it's a weird minor annoyance. I'm sure it's only intensified for the guys who are actually hoping to get somewhere with these women.
Attractive women can be goofy and awkward too. I think I'm kinda pretty (imho) and I'm a master of goofy and awkward. Just ask my boyfriend! :P
Um, in my room, one seam is a little off and I stare at it constantly. It's, like, destroying me.

~~Kristin~~

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