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If you want to share some events in your life or thoughts about life in general with other MSCL fans or if you just want post a rant to let some steam off - this is the place.
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SanDeE*
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Post by SanDeE* » Oct 14th 2004, 12:53 am

I agree that men are complicated. I have so many male friends --- certainly more male than female friends. When I was young, I really wanted to play with the girls, but they were mean to me, so I just played with the boys all the time, because they weren't mean and they just accepted me. So, hanging out with boys all the time my whole life, I thought I'd have a little insight into their twisted minds (I agree women are twisted too) when they became men. Wrong. My biggest problem is I can't tell whether a guy really truly likes me for ME and my personality, or just wants to have sex with me. That's a tough one. (mscl guys? any thoughts/insights?)

AND to make things worse, I'm feeling what some of the other women on this thread are - male friends that are starting to feel (or finally expressing?) a romantic/physical interest in me, an interest that I NEVER saw coming, even though deep down inside me I couldn't deny that these are very attractive men. I just never thought about it because we are great friends, and we talk about their girlfriends they've had and boyfriends I've had, stuff like that.

The WORST part is that... oh man, I can't believe it... it's more than one of my male friends. Thank god I'm in Kansas City, far away from all of that for right now.
Um, in my room, one seam is a little off and I stare at it constantly. It's, like, destroying me.

~~Kristin~~

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Post by Nostradamus » Oct 14th 2004, 2:56 am

Kristin wrote:My biggest problem is I can't tell whether a guy really truly likes me for ME and my personality, or just wants to have sex with me. That's a tough one. (mscl guys? any thoughts/insights?)
They all want to have sex with you; the question is which ones also like your personality.

:wink:
I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure.
-- Clarence Darrow

I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it.
-- Mark Twain

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Natasha (candygirl)
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Post by Natasha (candygirl) » Oct 14th 2004, 4:05 am

Hee! Nostradamus' post was just begging to be followed by this quote:

Harry: You realize of course that we could never be friends.

Sally: Why not?

Harry: What I'm saying is - and this is not a come-on in any way, shape or form - is that men and women can't be friends because the sex part always gets in the way.

Sally: That's not true. I have a number of men friends and there is no sex involved.

Harry: No you don't.

Sally: Yes I do.

Harry: No you don't.

Sally: Yes I do.

Harry: You only think you do.

Sally: You say I'm having sex with these men without my knowledge?

Harry: No, what I'm saying is they all WANT to have sex with you.

Sally: They do not!

Harry: Do too.

Sally: They do not.

Harry: Do too.

Sally: How do you know?

Harry: Because no man can be friends with a woman that he finds attractive. He always wants to have sex with her.

Sally: So, you're saying that a man can be friends with a woman he finds unattractive?

Harry: No. You pretty much want to nail 'em too.

Sally: What if THEY don't want to have sex with YOU?

Harry: Doesn't matter because the sex thing is already out there so the friendship is ultimately doomed and that is the end of the story.

Sally: Well, I guess we're not going to be friends then.

Harry: I guess not.

Sally: That's too bad. You were the only person I knew in New York.

Harry (three years later): No, no, no, I never said that. ...Yes, that's right, they can't be friends. Unless both of them are involved with other people, then they can. ...This is an amendment to the earlier rule. If the two people are in relationships, the pressure of possible involvement is lifted. ...That doesn't work either, because what happens then is, the person you're involved with can't understand why you need to be friends with the person you're just friends with. Like it means something is missing from the relationship and why do you have to go outside to get it? And when you say "No, no, no it's not true, nothing is missing from the relationship," the person you're involved with then accuses you of being secretly attracted to the person you're just friends with, which you probably are. I mean, come on, who the hell are we kidding, let's face it. Which brings us back to the earlier rule before the amendment, which is men and women can't be friends.

:mrgreen:
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Post by Nostradamus » Oct 14th 2004, 9:36 am

That quote reminds me of a related humor site:

http://www.intellectualwhores.com/masterladder.html

The "Ladder Theory" is of course a joke, but it can be thought provoking as well.
Scenario 1: Tom meets Jane. She's pretty and seems interesting to talk to. Tom and Jane start haging out and talking more and more. Tom develops an attraction to Jane, and one day tries to kiss her. Jane tell Tom she doesn't think of him that way and she wants to remain friends. The next few weeks contact between the two falls off. Jane starts f***ing an outlaw biker...

Scenario 2: Tom meets Jane. She's cute and seems smart. After an appropriate amount of time he asks her out on a date. She acccepts and they have what seems to be a perfectly nice date. Tom thinks he has a chance with Jane. He asks her out again. She says no, either explicitly or by never returning his phone call. Tom has no idea what the Hell just happened. Jane starts f***ing an unemployed alcoholic.
:-P
I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure.
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I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it.
-- Mark Twain

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Post by emmie » Oct 14th 2004, 2:07 pm

Nostradamus wrote:
Kristin wrote:My biggest problem is I can't tell whether a guy really truly likes me for ME and my personality, or just wants to have sex with me. That's a tough one. (mscl guys? any thoughts/insights?)
They all want to have sex with you; the question is which ones also like your personality.

:wink:
LOL!! and from the guy friends of mine who have been comfortable enough to discuss sex in a mature fashion all agree with this. which I find totally fascinating because I'm the exact opposite. first I'm attracted to his personality.

in my film department, the ratio of guys to girls is 10:1. so I hang out almost exclusively with my male classmates. and we all get to know each other pretty well because our shoots can be anywhere from 6 to 12 hours long. my major problem, however, is that I always fall for the outgoing wity guys that are flirty by nature. so I never know when they are actually flirting with me, or just being themselves. :? but if I apply Harry's philosophy, maybe they flirt with all girls to make their odds better. because surely, one of the girls will eventually respond? but what do I know? I'm totally overthinking things, as usual! ha ha

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Post by wicked » Oct 14th 2004, 2:19 pm

as far as flirting goes my hubby says:

" A guy can walk through a plateglass window be cut to shreds, and if the nurse is food ( ha ha ha freudian slip but I think I'll leave it in place of good) looking...the guy will still flirt with them!"
"So this is hell. I'd never have believed it. You remember all we were told about the torture-chambers, the fire and brimstone, the "burning marl." Old wive's tales! There's no need for red-hot pokers. HELL IS - OTHER PEOPLE!"

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Post by Natasha (candygirl) » Oct 14th 2004, 2:31 pm

Hee, I always thought the Ladder Theory was hilarious, but some people find it very offensive.

:lol:
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You could have sex with me if you really want to help...I guess that's a "no"?

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Post by SanDeE* » Oct 14th 2004, 2:48 pm

Nostradamus wrote: ... The "Ladder Theory" ...
In other words ---- nice guys finish last?
Um, in my room, one seam is a little off and I stare at it constantly. It's, like, destroying me.

~~Kristin~~

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Post by Nothingman » Oct 14th 2004, 6:34 pm

Kristin wrote:
Nostradamus wrote: ... The "Ladder Theory" ...
In other words ---- nice guys finish last?
Ding, Ding, Ding! We have a winner!

Nostradamus, kudos on bringing up ladder theory. In terms of it being a scientific theory, it is a joke, but in terms of it being applicable in real life, it is dead on. Many people do find it offensive, however, I firmly believe it is the truth, and many people don't want to hear the truth.

I love this thread, male/female interaction is one of my favorite things to dissect. Let us delve into the male mind for a moment. There are of course exceptions to every rule, but they are few and far between and I will speak in generalities here.

Every male friend you have wants to have sex with you. Some may be in a relationship and can't act, some may be too shy, but given an opportunity every one of them would jump you. This is why guy's you date don't like male friends, you may not see them that way, but we know as a guy, what their intentions truely are. This is why we talk to you, because we want to have sex with you. We may also enjoy your company, but it doesn't change the fact we want more. Now, many women keep that male friend who they know wants them, but they keep them at bay; or the ex-boyfriend around so that they always have a backup plan. That's a whole other topic for another day.
Kristin wrote:My biggest problem is I can't tell whether a guy really truly likes me for ME and my personality, or just wants to have sex with me. That's a tough one. (mscl guys? any thoughts/insights?)
This is an easy one, but hard for women to understand because they don't think like we do. Every guy initially just wants to have sex with you. We have many ways to make you think we are interested in you, we're not, we just want to get you home between the sheets. It is only after we have obtained that primary goal that we evaluate if we really like you as a person. We do this because if the sex was good now we are thinking, I could do this on a regular basis, can I tolerate or even enjoy this person's company when we aren't having sex. If we can, great, now we are interested in a relationship.

Women want to see if they like the person before they have sex. Men want to have sex and then see if they like the person.

Women get worried that if they give it up early, we'll think they are easy and loose interest, unlikely. We aren't really evaluating you on personality up until that point anyway. It is more likely that by withholding we will loose interest and move on. Leaving you thinking, well he must have not liked that much anyway. Maybe we did, and maybe we didn't, odds are we hadn't given it much thought yet. Another thing is why would we think less of you for wanting to have sex with us, we'll do it with just about anything that moves, who are we to judge you on it. With the exception of the devout religious people and momma's boys you don't have any respect for anyway, guys don't care.

For guys sex and and emotional connection are separate items. Is sex better with both, sure, but we don't need and emotional connection to enjoy it. So if we get in a relationship is because we liked the sex, then we developed an emotional connection, now with both, it's better than it was when we were single. If either item drops off, we get the urge to move on. For me, sex with an emotional connection out ways variety, but if it gets boring, or infrequent, variety has a very strong allure again.

If any of this is offensive or seems rather abrupt, it's not meant to offend anyone or fire anybody up. I'm speaking frankly because I think this is a topic that is often sugar coated and that doesn't benefit either side because we don't the real answers. I was fed the fairy tail of being a nice guy and a gentleman, being chivalrous and respectful. I’ve learned it doesn’t get you anywhere. That guy still exists somewhere in me, but it’s not the person I choose to let everyone have access to. As men we are old that we shouldn’t be able to separate sex and emotion. That initially just being interested in sex is wrong. I don’t think there is anyway to deny that we are just wired differently, it’s not wrong, it just is.
"To come to your senses, you must first go out of your mind." - Alan Watts

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Post by SanDeE* » Oct 14th 2004, 6:58 pm

I've got a great quote from Fast Times at Ridgemont High:
A girl decides how far she'll let you go in the first five minutes.
Well, okay, maybe that's not perfectly word-for-word, but it's close enough. (It's in the scene where Rat and Dimone are talking about Rat being in love with Stacy, but he hasen't talked to her yet.) I love that line, because it's sorta true. I've certainly felt that way about guys, anyway. So, therefore, first impressions are very important! This is a great thread.
Um, in my room, one seam is a little off and I stare at it constantly. It's, like, destroying me.

~~Kristin~~

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Post by emmie » Oct 14th 2004, 10:19 pm

I for one am not offended at all! I love the fact that we can be honest and hopefully give insight to the opposite sex. and I thought the ladder theory was hilarious. I'd never heard it before.

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Post by Nostradamus » Oct 15th 2004, 4:07 am

wicked wrote:as far as flirting goes my hubby says:

" A guy can walk through a plateglass window be cut to shreds, and if the nurse is food ( ha ha ha freudian slip but I think I'll leave it in place of good) looking...the guy will still flirt with them!"
All too true! In my case it isn't even a conscious attempt at anything, it's automatic with any reasonably attractive woman. And I also agree with emmie in that it can lead to some very confusing moments...

:lol:
I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure.
-- Clarence Darrow

I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it.
-- Mark Twain

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Post by starbug » Oct 15th 2004, 5:00 am

This is so interesting... especially in light of a relatively (OK, over a year now) recently single friend. Maybe you male insight-sharing lot can help clear something up.

Here's the story. She is a cute-looking young woman who was viciously dumped by her boyfriend of 4 years. She lived in his house, she had to move out, it was all very painful. Anyway, I'm sure others can sympathise. So then she is very clearly focussing on (let's call him Dilbert) getting a replacement for Dilbert. Her tactics are as follows:
1. to be able to loosen up in front of guys and override the inherent 'nobody likes me and nobody finds me attractive' self-doubt, have a lot to drink.
2. As a result of the copious amount of alcohol, flirt outrageously with chosen victim.
3. Eventually achieve some kind of liaison with a man (be it a kiss, or usually, sex) and then talk yourself into the fact that they really like you.
4. spend the next week or so telling your friends every text message sent or received between the two of you, so they can 'objectively' determine the hidden meaning behind it all and deliver verdict on whether it's going anywhere.
5. get offended when friends suggest it might not go anywhere. Result = friends always try to put positive spin on events thus leading to the circle starting again.

through all of this runs the thread of literally stalking the man. at one point, she found some guy she liked, and he didn't give her his number. result? he'd mentioned (in passing) where he works so she googled him and emailed him at work. this when she knew they went to the same class and she was guaranteed to see him the following week anyway. She never saw him again because he never went to the class again.

So, according to the guy's perspective, he starts off wanting to have sex with her. she's a woman therefore that must be true. For the guys that have sex with her and then don't contact her again, your theory is completely true. had sex with her and then decided didn't like her enough to spend more time. but for the guys that didn't have sex with her - why not? it's there on a plate....... may as well, right?

This girl is attractive, intelligent, fun to be around. where is she going wrong? Mr. S reckons the signs of desperation are enough to turn any man off... is this true?

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Post by Nostradamus » Oct 15th 2004, 7:07 am

Weird synchronicity: I was listening to a music track with a runtime of 8:51 when I read starbug's latest post, her 851st.

:lol:
starbug wrote:1. to be able to loosen up in front of guys and override the inherent 'nobody likes me and nobody finds me attractive' self-doubt, have a lot to drink.
2. As a result of the copious amount of alcohol, flirt outrageously with chosen victim.
Alcohol is an effective anxiolytic agent, but as you have noted, it brings the unfortunate side-effect of impaired judgement, aka "beer goggles".

:wink:
3. Eventually achieve some kind of liaison with a man (be it a kiss, or usually, sex) and then talk yourself into the fact that they really like you.
4. spend the next week or so telling your friends every text message sent or received between the two of you, so they can 'objectively' determine the hidden meaning behind it all and deliver verdict on whether it's going anywhere.
5. get offended when friends suggest it might not go anywhere. Result = friends always try to put positive spin on events thus leading to the circle starting again.
Oh, I feel your pain, I am one of those friends. You don't want to make her (or him, a lot of guys fall into this pattern too) angry by being blunt, but it's so damn hard to get through to them with subtlety!

:roll:
So, according to the guy's perspective, he starts off wanting to have sex with her. she's a woman therefore that must be true. For the guys that have sex with her and then don't contact her again, your theory is completely true. had sex with her and then decided didn't like her enough to spend more time. but for the guys that didn't have sex with her - why not? it's there on a plate....... may as well, right?

This girl is attractive, intelligent, fun to be around. where is she going wrong? Mr. S reckons the signs of desperation are enough to turn any man off... is this true?
Have you tried steering her to other hunting grounds? Bars are fine for hooking up, but I wouldn't go looking for long-term mates there. Maybe try the library, university, or any number of hobby clubs or volunteer organisations. And Mr. S is on the right track with the desperation; she needs at least enough self-esteem to be able to turn down the players and skeezes. But honestly, I have no easy answers; if anyone else does, let us know before one of our friends starts bugging us again!

:P
I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure.
-- Clarence Darrow

I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it.
-- Mark Twain

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Post by starbug » Oct 15th 2004, 10:08 am

Nostradamus wrote:Oh, I feel your pain, I am one of those friends. You don't want to make her (or him, a lot of guys fall into this pattern too) angry by being blunt, but it's so damn hard to get through to them with subtlety!

:roll:
Exactly! It's a fine balance. In the end I resorted to 'No, I really don't think you should email him. I think it has an element of 'stalker'. it's a bad idea.' What did she do? email him anyway. Aaaargh.
Have you tried steering her to other hunting grounds?
Oh yes, oh yes. I've tried the 'I really think you should stop focussing on bars' tack. result = she focussed on the men in her office . Noooooo! Salsa dances were taken up, and were fun, but spawned at least 2 failed attempts to find Mr. Right. Learning Portugese led to a liaison with the portugese teacher - let's not go there. Basically it isn't for want of a variety of forums designed for man-hunting.

I just think it's an interesting case-study on the theme of how difficult it becomes for women to find someone to have a meaningful relationship. I also think part of the problem was that she didn't want to tell people (even herself) that really she wants a meaningful relationship, for fear of frightening men off, so she would be all 'well, I just want to have fun! I'm such fun! Look at me, heap big party girl!' which resulted in her being treated as such by the men. understandably.

It's all so soul-destroying because she really does deserve happiness... and the men/women relationship incompatibility so startlingly outlined by Nothingman basically prevents that from happening.

IMHO, it fits together as follows: woman holds off long enough to work out whether the man likes them. man appears to like them personally, but really all he wants at this point is sex. doesn't matter; woman doesn't realise this. by the time she allows herself to sleep with him, she's convinced herself that his continued interest means he's interested in HER. They sleep together. Man either decides a) sex was fab - more please, and actually you're quite lovely. or b) sex was awful, and you're OK but not nice enough for me to bother.
option a) results in relationship. woman happy, man happy.
option b) results in dumpster. man happy, woman feels used.

But on this hypothesis, it simply isn't possible for the man to be unhappy. Discuss.

I am finding it really interesting hearing the male perspective, I must say... most of my friends wouldn't be honest about it for fear of alienating the women (partners or friends) in their life.

[/b]

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