Anyone Alive?

General discussion about the nineteen episodes of "My So-Called Life". Note: Our episode guide can be found here.
ataris
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Anyone Alive?

Post by ataris » Jan 5th 2000, 7:38 pm

I don't know it just seems like the board is dead. Is it that people aren't checking the board? Or that you've discussed so much mscl? There is always something mscl to talk about. I just don't know what you've talked about and what you haven't. Well I'll just bring up a topic and if you've talked about it and you don't want to again stop me. How about Brian v. Jordan?

oldguy
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Re: Anyone Alive?

Post by oldguy » Jan 5th 2000, 10:00 pm

I think part of the reason some of us haven't been as active on the board is
that we're working on putting an MSCL audio collection together (That's
occupied several of us off-line for the last few weeks or so --- so there
have been a lot of communications off-line.). If you want to get involved,
or want a CD, write me at petersonpm@earthlink.net.

Now --- on to your question. I think Brian and Jordan represent the typical
options that probably just about every girl winds up having to choose between:
a smarter, more interesting guy versus a sexier guy. The show did a good
job of playing off that natural conflict. If you could imagine it continuing, I
doubt Angela would ever go for Brian, but she would also always be a little
dissatisfied with Jordan. That's just life, as they say. What do you think?

mia
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Brian v. Jordan

Post by mia » Jan 6th 2000, 11:11 am

I totally agree with Patrick about the Brian v. Jordan issue. And I can totally relate. I once had a friend, KB. He was witty, brilliant, kind...but I was not at all physically attracted to him. He was always trying to figure out a way to ask me out, but he'd never come right out and say it. Well, we started hanging out a lot, and eventually we fell into a "dating relationship." I found him more attractive at this time, but I think I was more attracted to his personality. Eventually, we decided we were better as friends...

Then I met KH. He was immature, rather insulting, forgetful, and rather limited in his discussion topics. And he was REALLY cute. We lasted about 3 months, at wich time I decided a cute face and good body just weren't enough. I dropped him, and I don't miss him at all.

Instead, I miss KB, whom I don't speak to anymore, because he couldn't let go of our past. Still, I couldn't see myself romantically with him, no matter how mentally stimulating I find him. So, I'm still stuck looking for a nice combination of Brian and Jordan, and I think that's what Angela was looking for too. Which is why she got so excited when she though Jordan wrote The Letter. But between the 2 individuals, my guess is she won't be fully satisfied either way. In my humble opinion....

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worldsapart
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life vs. fantasy world

Post by worldsapart » Jan 7th 2000, 12:34 am

I think this whole discussion reveals just exactly why I like movies and tv so much generally (because they aren't real life and unreal things can happen), yet I love mscl because it gives me a chance to "experience" real life while still being able to dream about the fantasy. I mean, when I watch mscl, I REALLY want Jordan and Angela to get together because I see Jordan through her eyes and he's perfect. But then I gradually start seeing things from Brian's point of view and realize how perfect he is because he ISN'T perfect (that lovely paradox we see revealed as Jordan's feelings toward Angela), but he is REAL.

Am I babbling...this is a topic I really love to discuss, but I have trouble doing it without reverting back to my romantic Cinderella point of view. I tend to prefer to picture life in the fantasy even when I'm living in the reality. It's an interesting existence. =)

Ideally (for me), Angela would see that Jordan is just imagined and would realize how completely perfect Brian is for her. Yet I see the problems in that as well, because what fun is life without the imagination?

Wow, I really should get more sleep. Or maybe I'm in a daydreaming sort of mood (like I am 99% of the time). I just got done watching "Return to Oz"- it's not the best movie in the world, but I'm a HUGE fan of the whole series of L. Frank Baum books about Oz (Wizard of Oz, etc- I collect the OLD early 1900+ copies) and "Return" is actually a lot closer to the books in the way the characters are portrayed...ANYWAY, I think it put me in a fairy land sort of quasi-reality mood. And that was totally off the subject!

Tracey

ataris
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Re: life vs. fantasy world

Post by ataris » Jan 7th 2000, 1:40 am

Okay I have to ask, where are you coming from saying that Brian is perfect for Angela? The discussion Brian v. Jordan is "conversation or sex" it's idealy both but it's hard to find that in a guy. Sorry if I'm shallow but I would personally pick Jordan. (Speaking of which is Jordan is a sophmore or junior?) Which I am sure that many girls would.

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Re: life vs. fantasy world

Post by Jack » Jan 7th 2000, 5:53 am

Ataris,

I would think that most girls would go for Jordan, which bothers me since I'm more like Brian, and
I was always hoping against hope that Angela would end up with him. But I'm fascinated by Mia's
and Tracey's take on it.

Mia seems to respond the way I perceive Angela responding. According to Mia's story, KB
fulfilled her intellectual needs (and maybe some emotional needs, only she knows), but alas,
there was no physical chemistry. And, sad to say, chemistry can't be forced. It's either there
or it isn't. And KH had the looks and the body. But, sad to say again, you absolutely cannot
sustain a relationship on physical attraction alone. As best I can tell from Mia's post, neither
KB or KH is in her life. KH is gone by her choice, and KB by his choice. This could be
Angela's future.

In the final scene of the final episode, Angela's eyes are opened to a reality she never realized
-- that she was someone else's dream, as Jordan was hers. Unfortunately for her, and to echo
and build upon what Mia said, she will never be satisfied with either. Though this is her dilemma,
it is not her fault. We choose who we have relationships with, we don't choose who we're
physically attracted to. If we did, would Angela (as thoughtful, profound, and self-aware as she
apparently is) really choose to be attracted to a guy who thinks/says things like:

-- What a minute, isn't today New Year's Eve? --
-- That book, about the guy who turns into a bug, that's just made up, right? --
-- Everybody does it, unless you're like, abnormal or something --

And Angela's obviously not physically attracted to Brian. But...in that final scene, there was a
moment, just a moment, where her eyes moved from his eyes to his mouth. And then she
scanned his face as he leaned closer, his eyes betraying his longing and need for her. I say
betray, because until this moment, he masked his desire for her behind anything and everything.
No, she's not physically attracted to him, but I believe for a moment (or maybe a lot longer) she
thought: What if...? But alas, it would end up as unsatisfying as her relationship with Jordan,
because no matter how much she would like to make it happen, she can't choose who she's
attracted to. The only consolation that Brian would get is that she probably wouldn't say,
"Every second of my relationship with Brian completely and totally sucked!" I know she would
never, ever say that, and the reason I know is because she hasn't said it yet, and she does
have a relationship with Brian. She's had one for about ten years. And it's survived her change
of friends, shouting arguments, and him starting hurtful rumors and heartless behavior toward
other girls. Her relationship with Jordan is fractured and, at this point, is only being held together
by willpower and habit. She's in the habit of liking him, that's all. As they both grow, they'll
grow apart, and she will leave him. A relationship with Brian will ultimately become frustrating
for both of them as neither will get what they want out of it. I think they would breakup and he
would distance himself from her because he would find being around her (and still desiring her)
infinitely more intolerable, after having a relationship, than it was when he just secretly desired
her.

Okay, now where was I? Oh yeah. Tracey. Now Tracey's comment that Brian is perfect for
Angela has blown me away! (Now we have to factor in that Tracey commented that she was
tired and babbling. Nonetheless, even though she may change her mind after a good nights
sleep, she thought it, if just for a moment.) Now the reason this blows me away, is because
Tracey is a woman. For a guy to say, "Brian is perfect for Angela", means nothing. It means
less than nothing. I would say it. I'd shout it from the highest mountain! BRIAN IS PERFECT
FOR ANGELA!!!!! But it'd be spitting in the wind. It'd be talking to hear my head rattle. Why?
You ask. Because I have an agenda. I identify with Big Bri. When I was in high school
(eighty or ninety years ago), I was just like Brian. And I had secret crushes on many girls.
Crushes, all of which ultimately went unrequitted. All of them (unlike today, where I've matured
into my current suave, handsome self [for those not in the know, if Brad Pitt was really, really,
good-looking {and in the tri-state area}, he'd look like me] Yep. And then he woke up. Again.)
Alright, now where was I. Oh yeah. I would have an agenda, because when I was Brian's age,
I was King Dork. So me saying, "Brian is perfect for Angela", means nothing. But, Tracey saying
it, even though she's obviously in the minority (way in the minority I think), means a lot. I mean,
really, a lot! It means that Brian has hope. If Tracey can think it, then Angela can think it.
Which, of course, would completely null and void my earlier take on it. But that's good. Humans
should never, ever be text-book predictable.

Hmmm. Look at what we have here. Ataris says she would go for Jordan. Tracey says, "Brian's
perfect for Angela", and Mia was involved with both "Brian" and "Jordan", and is currently not
involved with either. NEW TOPIC!!! Female only poll! Who would you go for, ladies? Brian?
Jordan? Or neither? Or, what the hell, both?

Oh yeah, one last thing. Jordan is a sophomore who was held back twice. So he should be
a senior now. And, at the rate he's going, he'll be graduating about the time Danielle is. Maybe
he'll be involved with her by then. Oh...oh...wouldn't Patty and Graham love that!

-- Do you have a major? --
-- I don't think so --
-- I think you'd know --
-- Yeah, they probably would've sent me a letter, or something --

...Or something...
Yeah.

Goodnight, sleep tight.
Jack

oldguy
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Re: perfect for angela ?

Post by oldguy » Jan 7th 2000, 4:40 pm

Interesting conversation guys... I feel like I have to jump in here again:

I think it's a real complement to the show that we all feel we can interpret Angela,
what Angela needs, wants, etc. I must say, MSCL was my first experience of
feeling like I actually understood the female perspective (if only that of one, imaginary
girl!). We do get the sense after several episodes that we know her inner-most
desires, needs, obsessions, misgivings --- you-name-it. What a cool show!

After watching all 19 episodes, I don't believe Angela could have a sexual relation-
ship with Brian. The guy's just too much the familiar guy next door. For her,
it would be like having sex with a family member --- maybe not that extreme --- but
that's my read on it.

I think what people are looking for in the opposite sex varies a lot from person to
person. For some people, simple conversations and a comforting hug now and
then are more than enough ---- It's not like you have to get deeply philosophical
with your mate ---- So while I agree that Angela wouldn't be satisfied with Jordan,
a lot of girls would be ---- and I see nothing shallow about that. But it is interesting
that Angela seems to be of the type where should would not be easily satisfied with
most men! I get that impression... in my humble opinion...

ataris
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Re: perfect for angela ?

Post by ataris » Jan 7th 2000, 7:36 pm

I think that there is a girl for every type of guy. there are those girls who want sex and then those who want a conversation but most want both. I think that Angela might have ended up with Brian in the long run. Look at Patty, Gram was the Brian and oh I can't remember his name the guy who Patty was going to meet for advice on the resturant, he was the Jordan. And Patty ended up with Gram, maybe over time Angela would have been attracted to Brain. Or maybe Jordan would have ended up falling in love with Angela and she would have been satisfied with Jordan. Thanks Jack for clearing up that Jordan was a sophmore, because that's what I had thought but someone told me he was a junior so I thought I'd check. That reminds me, don't you think it is weird how we never hear anything about anyother class besides the sophmores. Nothing about freshman, juniors, or seniors.

oldguy
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Re: perfect for angela ?

Post by oldguy » Jan 8th 2000, 1:16 am

Well, one point I don't agree with --- Gram (Graham) was by no means a Brian (I don't think).
He was probably a little shy and out-of-the-way in high school --- but I can't picture him ever
being like Brian. Actually, it's interesting --- because of all the characters on the show ----
I identified most with Graham. Not because I'm his age (I'm actually quite a bit younger),
but because I picture Graham in high school being like I was in high school ---- not a nerd,
but shy and just a little off-beat... somebody who most people wouldn't notice, but who was
very individual in a quiet sort of way. In terms of the usual stereotypes, I suppose Graham
was likely more of a "freak" than a "geak" (not that I buy these stereotypes --- but I'm
trying to make a vague analogy). Anyway, I think Angela would probably end up like her
mom and going for a guy like Graham --- but not because Graham is like Brian (more because
Graham represents something totally different --- not the intellect of Brian but not the simplicity
of Jordan either... <do you see my point?>).

ataris
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Re: perfect for angela ?

Post by ataris » Jan 8th 2000, 1:50 am

Yeah that makes more sence then what I said. I had just thought that maybe the show was trying to do a reoccuring theme like they had in many episodes. But I see your point clearly about Gram not being a "geek" in high school.

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Re: perfect for angela ?

Post by angelika » Jan 8th 2000, 4:08 am

This conversation really rules. You guys have so much to say--I'm completely intrigued with every word that is written on this board. And Jack--everything you say is so intellegent and on my line of thinking... It's actually kind of scary. :-) But in answer to your question: Several years ago, I would have chosen Jordan, basically because of his looks and charisma. A few minutes ago, I almost said Brian, because of his intelligence, compassion, and sincerity. However, after thinking about it, I guess I would have to say that neither of them is good for Angela. Jordan COULD be--he has the potential. He needs to learn some respect first--Just because he has a learning disability (as is quite flighty--Jack, your quotes were good) doesn't mean he can't have some common sense or compassion. (ie. the quote about Angela having sex with him if she was "normal.") I think Jordan has a good heart--he just needs to take care of some issues. But Brian... he's a good person, but based on the family-ish relationship that he and Angela have had for so long, I can't see them being sexually attracted to each other. And just like Angela said about Jordan in one of the earlier episodes, once Brian went out with Angela, perhaps he would realize that he is in love with the FANTASY of going out with Angela, and not necessarily with Angela herself. Am I making any sense? It's one of those "I-know-what-I'm-trying-to-say-but-just-can't-seem-to-spit-it-out" moments. Maybe some of you can relate. It's time to go to sleep. :-)

angelika

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Re: perfect for angela ?

Post by Alee » Jan 8th 2000, 5:40 pm

I have to say, I would choose Jordan. I mean, like Ataris said I'm sorry if that makes me more shallow or something...but, I think a lot of girls would have to pick him. I mean, look at him. But, not just because of his looks...I guess it's sort of the mystique about him. I mean, Angela really doesn't know much about him; he's kind of mysterious. Angela's know Brian for how long??? Even if she could be attracted to him, I think it loses something that she knows him so well. Not like I actually know anything about this stuff... Oh one other thing, I mean, Brian doesn't really deserve Angela (I don't know if Jordan does, but anyways). The thing is,I know it's not necessarily his fault, and he's obsessed with her and all (how do I say this?), but he never treats her nice. I mean, it's like he doesn't know what to do...maybe like most teenagers, trying to figure everything out. But for whatever reason, he's always...well..I don't know what...just Brian. He's always kind of...I dunno...sour towards her. I just thought it was really weird that someone would say that he's perfect for her...

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Unraveling the mystery

Post by mia » Jan 9th 2000, 12:22 am

Every girl loves a good mystery. But the thing is, once the mystery's unraveled. it can be rather anti-climatic. I mean, what if what you once mistook for complexity turns out to be a lack of intelect? Looking back to high school, honestly I would have chosen Jordan. But, knowing what I now know regarding life and love, I would have chosen Brian. And I still would have ended up where I am now: looking for Nicky Driscol - that elusive, perfect boy who I could heap all of my requirements upon, without having to worry that an imperfect version would show up to spoil my fantasy.

OK, now it's my turn to worry about making sense...I guess what I'm trying to say is that in all likelyhood, both Brian and Jordan would go by the way side for me....I mean, it's high school. But, back in high school, I have to say - Jordan would've ruled my world....

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worldsapart
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Re: Unraveling the mystery

Post by worldsapart » Jan 9th 2000, 1:35 am

I had this big long reply planned, and I was half way through it (this was several messages up, mind you), but then my family got home and I got busy...perhaps if I have time tomorrow I will finish it (I saved what I had in my word processor) and then post it. =)

The one who has no time
Tracey

Jack
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Re: Unraveling the mystery

Post by Jack » Jan 9th 2000, 6:44 am

Mia is absolutely right, we're talking about high school. The probability of any relationship lasting
is very low, as it should be. I have more to say on this, but like Tracey, I'm going to do it tomorrow,
it's too late right now. But I will leave everybody with this: Winnie Holzman and the rest of the
creators of the show are drawing a strong connection between high school life and adult life. This
is apparent in the fact that Patty and Graham went to the same high school, but didn't know each
other. And Patty and Camille knew each other in high school and college. I'm not sure, but I
think Camille and Andy (her husband) also knew each other in high school. This is no coincidence
in the writing. I believe the connection between the two worlds is made very clear in "Self-Esteem",
which I'll elaborate on later, if I remember.

Jack

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