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Jordan's first feelings for Angela?

Posted: May 21st 2002, 10:40 pm
by oldguy
I thought of this topic after reading some of the posts regarding "Guns & Gossip" --- but I thought this merited a whole new topic:

Here's my take on Jordan's "interest" in Angela during the first several episodes:

1) Jordan first shows that he even knows who Angela is in the pilot, when he sees her being placed into the police car. She's caught his interest here, but only because she's being arrested (something he can probably relate to). There's no reason to think he likes her or even finds her attractive at this point.

2) In the car in front of Brian's house, Jordan makes a pass at Angela, tries to kiss her --- but this is probably just the sort of thing Jordan does with every girl who's in his car. He views her sexually, but again, there's no reason to think he cares one wit about her or has any real feelings toward her.

3) Only after RayAnne furthers his interest (by first saying Angela is French and then hassling him about the rumor that they had sex), Jordan now gets the idea that maybe this is a way to cajole Angela into having sex with him. Once again though, there is no sign Jordan has any real feelings for her.

4) To make a long story short, we have to go all the way to a much later episode, "Self Esteem", before we see any legitimate sign that Jordan has feelings toward Angela, that he starts to see her as anything more than another girl he might have sex with. Even with Jordan's song "Red", it's really about his car, and he blows off the date with Angela because it's too much of a hassle to meet her parents. He's not being cruel in blowing off the date, he's just not that interested. It's a casual thing for him.

It takes a long time and a lot of little things over many episodes before Jordan is kind of knocked over the head --- that hey, maybe he actually likes Angela, cares for her, etc.

What do you guys think?

Re: Jordan's first feelings for Angela?

Posted: May 22nd 2002, 8:39 am
by just-likeKrakow
This is a good topic...

First i think that you're right...there are several smaller, almost unrecognizable things that happen in all the episodes that slowly gets Jordan hooked on Angela. They are so small that i dont believe that Jordan is remotely aware that they are happening. I think one of the key aspects that keeps Jordan interested, even while Angela is NOT putting out for him, is that she is SO different than most girls. Maybe, because she actually does care for him on a level that is not purely physical. She actually wants to have a relationship with him and while that may be new, scarey and even sort of a hassle for Jordan...i think he also is curious about it.

Though i don't think this is the very first time he has "feelings" for Angela...i think it is the first time he is consciously aware of it...

The scene in SELF ESTEEM. Katimsky is reading Shakespeare. Katimsky asks the class if this girl described is perfect or beautiful and Brian is the first to admit that she is not. Then Katimsky asks if he is in love with this girl...Brian cant say it out loud but Jordan can..."YEAH. He is." Then Katimsky asks the dreaded WHY? Jordan can't answer because i dont think he really knows. He just knows there is something there. And, then Brian answers before he has a chance.

Now, we know that both boys are thinking about Angela and the this scene is so CLASSIC Krakow/Catalano. Krakow can easily admit and is perfectly aware of how he feels and the reasons why. He can easily put those feelings into expressable words, but can he verbally admit that he "loves" Angela?...NO! Jordan can easily admit that he "loves" her but he really has no idea why, probably because he hasn't analized it to death like we know Krakow has...he just feels it.

I love this scene. It's so short and subtle, yet clearly defines these two boys characters about their feelings for the same girl.

"There´s something about my life. It´s just automatically true that nothing actually happens."

Re: Jordan's first feelings for Angela?

Posted: May 22nd 2002, 10:47 am
by socalledfan
Wow...this is a great thread. I agree with what BOTH of you had to say. Just like-Krakow, I like your take on that moment in Self Esteem. It is the first time we really see both of them coming to terms with their love for her.

Yes, this is the first time Jordan allows himself to admit it...but despite earlier denials, I think the spark happened way before that. Like you said old guy, it took a long time for Jordan to feel knocked over the head...yet...each time Angela frustrated him by let's say, "talking too much," or not being the type that "puts out," Jordan's feelings for her grew, BECAUSE she presented a challenge and had substance. He was just TOO cool, too scared, and too inexperienced with real love to recognize it for a long time.

In my humble opinion....


"You're so beautiful, it hurts to look at you."

Re: Jordan's first feelings for Angela?

Posted: May 22nd 2002, 12:51 pm
by K-man
I guess a good thing to determine or define here is "real interest". What exactly are we talking about? At what point does Jordan decide she might be a casual 'hook-up'? At what point is she more than a casual thing? When does Jordan decide to clean out the stables for her? Is it episode 19 when he appears at the Chase house to pick her up and reveals his feelings to Patty?
If a person has a crush, a real crush....Angela for Jordan style....any little signs of hope are usually blown out of proportion. In other words, when Angela is getting in the police car and Jordan yells for her we could understand Angela/Rayanne's excitement. Why does Jordan call out to her? The simple fact that he calls her name and says "I know that girl." is evidence enough for me that something's brewing on his end. Think about it....You are back in high school and you go to a party and as you make an entrance with your bro's (after a few cold one's) and you notice some girl you spoke to once in passing at a party that you have no interest in. What do you do????? The LAST thing I would do is call her name and say i know her. Okay...same scenario except this time I AM interested. Yeah, I'd probably let her know I see her. As far as the level of interest.....maybe it's casual at this point. But; I say interest is definitely present.
As far as the scene in Jordan's car is concerned (ep 2) I disagree Jordan has no real feelings for her. Sure he tries to jump her bones (high-school guys are good at that) but if he has no real feelings then why does he persist after she snuffs him? It is only a very short time after angela exits the car until Jordan returns and asks," Is she really French?". He also tells Krakow to make sure Angela gets her ID back. Once again....I see attraction. Perhaps initially Jordan only has plans of getting Angela in bed (in Red) but somewhere things change.
Though we only have one example of Jordan's past conquests (Was it Cynthia Hargrove???I forget) I get the impression he 'dates' the bimbo-type with little upstairs. Just a theory on my end. Is it that Angela is the first girl with a brain? Whether implied or actual I believe Jordan has dyslexia and he is drawn to an intelligent girl who takes the time to understand some of his shortcomings. As we see in "Why Jordan Can't Read" Jordan is very guarded concerning his learning problems. No doubt he has suffered derision as a result of them in the past. Children can be very cruel some times. Angela has gotten past at least one of his guards when she exclaims,"You couldn't read it....that's it isn't it." yet she does not follow this statement with scorn but understanding. This no doubt endears her to Jordan.
I agree that in Self Esteem Jordan finally 'publicly' displays his affection for Angela but it is only a short time later in the very next episode he is once again trying to get her clothes off. Are we to believe she is still just a sexual attraction for him?
I still say Jordan let the cat out of the bag in ep. 2 when he acknowledges to Rayanne he knows who she is referring to as they talk outside near the Apple/Orange machine. Only over the next 17 1/2 episodes does Jordan begin to understand there is more to girls than purely physical encounters. Just my opinion.

Another great thought provoker by Oldguy.

So my feeling is, whatever happens, happens. K-man

Re: Jordan's first feelings for Angela?

Posted: May 22nd 2002, 6:59 pm
by Guest
You are so right K-man. The apple machine scene is where we know he likes her in some way. But I've always figured Jordan to be just after Angela sexually up until the scene in his car in Why Jordan Can't Read. The way he acts there seems too tender for him not to have feelings for her. I know he casts them aside when things get too complicated (meeting the parents) but I think there is something there or else why would he be so torn about not going?

This is similar to Pressure because again he just throws the towel in because the relationship doesn't fit in with his path of least resistance outlook. He won't do it if it isn't cool.

The only time he breaks his cool for her is in 19 where he finally gets that she's worth some uncomfortable moments. You know, in my humble opinion.

Re: Jordan's first feelings for Angela?

Posted: May 25th 2002, 1:46 pm
by Joanna
Cool topic of discussion - I think he always had feelings for her of some kind since the moment he laid eyes on her (just look at the way he always looks at her - even if it was just visual attraction first off).....he just didn't realise it until Shakespeare's sonnet - where he really does seem to suddenly make sense of his emotions! - before then Angela was 'just another girl he fancied'...or at least he thought so.

"And dance by the light of the moon!"

Re: Jordan's first feelings for Angela?

Posted: May 28th 2002, 4:13 am
by Lauria
OK, I haven't posted around here in a while because I have been lurking elsewhere obsessed by other fanaticisms of my own. But to return to such a great and well developed conversation is fabulous -- my compliments to all of you with your long and interesting thoughts about this topic. I really have nothing else to add than you all have, but I am still intrigued and really agree with Kman and Oldguy, and probably the rest of you. Thanks for the great analizations (sp?)...


Hope Springs Eternal

Re: Jordan's first feelings for Angela?

Posted: May 28th 2002, 9:06 pm
by Natasha (candygirl)
Wow, this is a great topic!

I think that Jordan reveals his initial interest in Angela at the end of the pilot when he sees her being arrested and calls out her name. Why? In Angela's voiceovers and conversations with Rayanne/Rickie, it is clear that Angela admires him from afar in a way that is far different from the way that Brian admires Angela at close range. She has such limited access to Jordan that she lies to Graham just so she can be at a party where she knows no one (except perhaps Rayanne, who we don't see in attendance) in hopes of glimpsing him. When she sits down, she doesn't seem to expect any sort of conversation with him, and I assumed from her body language and nervousness that she had probably never spoken to Jordan before then. The "it doesn't feel like a Friday" conversation had the casual tone of asking a stranger for the time - Jordan would have probably said that to whomever was in the room when he came up with that revelation. When Shane opens the door and says, "Let's go," Jordan leaves without saying anything to Angela. In other words, Jordan and Angela are strangers - not even casual acquaintances who would have given each other a casual "hey" or "see ya" when one enters or leaves the room.

When Jordan spots her getting into the police car the next night, he calls out her name. Given my previous assumptions, this is probably the first time he has ever said her name. I think of it this way - if I saw someone who I had said less than twenty words to in my entire life getting into a police car, I wouldn't yell out their name just to see if they turned around. As their relationship develops, Jordan makes some conscious decisions about Angela (not going to meet her parents, hiding her identity in the boiler room, etc) but when he calls out her name in the pilot, this seems to be an unconscious reaction to seeing her in that situation. This is the first step in Jordan inching towards Angela.

On Monday, he sees her in the hallway and he says hi - a vast improvement from his reaction to seeing her enter the room on Thursday night at Tino's party.

So what happened in Jordan's head between Tino's party and the parking lot of Let's Bolt? Or between Let's Bolt and Monday morning? It seems that Jordan has noticed Angela around school but that seeing her in a social setting (even if he wasn't being very sociable) has picqued his interest. Maybe he was used to seeing Angela with goody goody ASB yearbook Sharon and assumed that Angela was out of his league, but seeing her on his own turf (Tino's party & Let's Bolt) made him see her in a different light, more approachable, less what she appeared to be when she was Sharon's quiet friend.

I think I'm talking in circles around myself! :D

Good points here. IMHO

Posted: May 29th 2002, 1:25 pm
by K-man
I don't think you are talking in circles. I think you are right on saying that we are aware Jordan is at least a little interested by the end of the pilot. Given the party-type atmosphere at Let's Bolt, perhaps it was innocent enought that Jordan remarks out loud when he sees a familiar face being ushered into a squad car. But if he were genuinely not interested I think he would have walked right past her in the hallway the following Monday. He might have shot her a casual 'hey' in passing but probably would have not taken the time to stop and chat. His comment," Out on bail?" is phrased as a question which leaves the door open for a response and potentially maybe even a conversation.?. Coincidence? I don't think so.
I have to say though that I do find a small lack of continuity in the Jordan/Angela relationship between The Pilot and Dancing in the Dark. In ep. 2 Angela and Rayanne seem to behave as if Angela has never said a word to Jordan...ever. In all their conversations concerning Jordan they never mention prior interactions. As Rayanne attempts to build Angela's confidence throughout the episode, she fails use past conversations(between Angela and Jordan) as ammunition. Anyone else notice this? Was it due to the length of time between production of episode 1 and episode 2? Thoughts?

So my feeling is, whatever happens, happens. K-man

Re: Good points here. IMHO

Posted: May 29th 2002, 3:26 pm
by Natasha (candygirl)
Kman -
I agree that Jordan's conversation with Angela in the hallway is indicative of his interest. First the fact that he says "hey" - he is the one who instigates the conversation - and THEN asks "out on bail?" - his way of telling Angela that he saw her on Friday night (just in case she was too drunk/concerned with being put in the police car/etc to notice at the time). The bail comment lends the conversation some level of intimacy - Jordan alludes to what happened without spelling it out. At the same time, however, he is still not ready to get much closer yet (baby steps!) - he doesn't ask her why the police were taking her away or what happened afterwards. Granted this may be because Rayanne already told Tino who in turn told Jordan, but I prefer to assume that Jordan is deliberately keeping his distance at this point. To underscore that point, he ends the conversation abruptly with "I gotta go." Now we know that Jordan is not rushing off to class or anything, so this seems to be his way of saying that this brief conversation has served its purpose - some superficial contact with Angela - and he isn't ready for more just yet.

I also noticed the lack of continuity between the end of the pilot and DitD. During the apple machine conversation, Jordan refers to Angela as "that girl I see you with" to Rayanne, when in fact Rayanne was with Angela getting into the police car when Jordan called out Angela's name. And although Jordan isn't the brightest crayon in the box, the brief bail conversation should have been enough to tell him that Angela isn't from France. This may be a defense mechanism on Jordan's part so that no one will notice that he notices Angela and is interested in her, but the first time I saw this episode I wondered if it was inconsistency on the part of the writers or Jordan deliberately being, well, Jordan. As far as other inconsistencies, in DitD, Rayanne says that she collects fake IDs. If this is true, then why couldn't she get into Let's Bolt without Tino in the pilot? It's possible that she was being chivalrous and didn't want to go in without Angela and Rickie, but does that seem like Rayanne? No! ; )

Re: Good points here.

Posted: May 29th 2002, 4:18 pm
by just-likeKrakow
I thought about that too…about the fake ID’s. I quickly regarded it as Rayanne just being Rayanne. I think that she says a lot of things to sound impressive that might not necessarily be true. Does Rayanne own a fake ID? It’s most likely possible, but does she collect them? I don’t really think. And why didn’t she use it to get in to Let’s Bolt? I just don’t think that Rayanne uses one on a regular basis if she uses one at all. Why else is she so desperately grabbing individual beers from people’s fridges? Maybe because she really has no other way to get them. That doesn’t really explain the bottle of liquor they were drinking outside of Let’s Bolt…but that could have been easily swiped from her mothers house…I suppose.

Another good point about this is…how she has built Tino up. Through the episodes she’s always talking about these things Tino has done or could do for her. It’s as if Tino was her boyfriend and they have this tight, personal relationship. But, what has Tino actually done for Rayanne? It may be another one of those things that Rayanne feels she needs to complete her persona…know the right “bad boy” and do the right “wrong things”. But honestly I don’t think Rayanne is that bad or is trying not to be that bad. She makes poor decisions…like a lot…but how else could she completely adore and admire Angela’s more conservative personality?

As for Jordan calling Angela’s name outside of Let’s Bolt…I think it was more simply that fact that he was with his friends…there was a pretty girl (that he knew the name of) getting into a cop car. She had obviously been in some action and knowing her at that moment was convenient for him to seem impressive in front of his friends. Now, I do think he is attracted to her at this time but no more than physically. At this point (and in the next several episodes) he is more concerned with what his friends think rather than what Angela thinks…but that eventually gets turned around.

"There´s something about my life. It´s just automatically true that nothing actually happens."

Re: Tino

Posted: May 29th 2002, 6:07 pm
by Natasha (candygirl)
You bring up some interesting things about the relationship between Tino and Rayanne. She admits that he is unreliable, but that doesn't stop her from asking favors. (maybe she's going with the shotgun approach here) In Pressure, she sees Angela at the abandoned house but doesn't have time to talk because Tino will leave without her. What kind of a friend is that?! The things that we do see Tino follow through with are not significant - Chinese food at lunch, etc. And when Tino quits Frozen Embryos, Rayanne tries to replace him as the lead singer. Granted, we know the real reasons why she tries so hard to join the band, but how would that look to her friend Tino? Wouldn't he see that as disloyal?

Regarding Rayanne's claim to collect fake IDs - I gave that some more thought because what you said makes sense. Rayanne doesn't lie about big things (like sleeping with Jordan - notice that she never denies it or tries to cover it up), but she exaggerates or fabricates casually throughout the series (i.e. telling Jordan that Angela is French, talking to "Steve" on the Teen Help Line, etc).

Speaking of the Steve incident, this is another thing that never made sense to me. Sharon begs Brian to go, claiming that they NEED more people to go, but when Rayanne accompanies her, she (Rayanne) isn't supposed to answer the phone or talk to the kids who call. So what is she supposed to do besides fill up a seat?

More questions than answers,

Re: Tino

Posted: May 29th 2002, 7:20 pm
by Guest
The Rayanne/Tino relationship has always been an interesting point of discussion. I think that Rayanne probably really likes him but that he's too unreliable to get serious with. What little we know about him leads me to believe he wouldn't stick at anything long and Rayanne recognises this so she does her own thing.

On the main question: I think the police car scene is very important but how did Jordan know Angela's name? Either he asked someone or he has noticed her in class. Considering it's the start of term and he doesn't really go to class that much he probably asked someone (Tino?). I think asking someone about Angela indicates he is interested.

Also- Couldn't it be that Sharon promised two people so she wants two people to show up regardless of how busy the place is?

Re: Jordan's first feelings for Angela?

Posted: Jun 6th 2002, 3:55 am
by Guest
About Jordans feelings for Angela. The time when she is in his car to get the ID. I see clear evidence of him being interested, partly like she is interested in him, more than physical, just that he doesn't know her much as she doesn't know him that much either. I see it because first of all he tries to kiss her twice, and I think it's because he doesn't really know what to do and she's there and he kind of impulsivly just take a chance, well, accually two chances. But the part that I really take as evidence of pure feelings for her is that he get's imbarrest, even though he doesn't try to show it, and then he let's her out and haven't even gotten the money for the ID!! So obviously this was not as much about the ID as it was about getting closer and see what happens. Both are very unsure but in this scene I think Jordan is more unsure than Angela. He's just good at not being too obviouse. We have all discussed about Jordan's persona and Angela's too before so we all agree that he has this clowded mind and deep thoughts but are clearly in the dark when it comes to her. I don't know if he has had a lot of girls before. We never see him with anyone but Rayanne. And it seems like he doesn't care, just whatever happens happens.
So my point is that he forget about the money and what the whole deal has been about in that car is to kiss her.


Re: Jordan's first feelings for Angela?

Posted: Jun 10th 2002, 8:59 pm
by Guest
Wow, people discussing MSCL! This is so great!! :) And excellent analysis, people, this has been really interesting to read.

K-Man was talking about how Rayanne and Jordan were talking about her in the second episode. I remember the little nuances of how he said things because you know, when you have a crush, these things are MONUMENTALLY important. ;) When him and Rayanne were talking, I thought it was interesting that he asked why Angela didn't ask him for an ID herself (maybe he had some interest in talking to her himself, who knows?), and that he said "that girl I see you with..." So he has a vague idea of who she hangs out with. And the very fact that he knew her name in the pilot means that he must have been keeping an eye open in some way or another.

And I think in spite of his blowing off meeting her parents in "Why Jordan Can't Read," he still didn't blow it off without giving it a second thought. I actually thought it was interesting that he even mentioned to his friends that "there was this thing I said I would do." It looked like it was giving him a considerable amount of anguish as he sat on the floor by himself. I thought he actually did seem sorry about it, but it's just that if he had shown up, I would have been shocked out of my mind. It just would've been against his whole life philosophy. ;) But I got the definite feeling that he felt bad about disappointing her (sitting by himself in the loft while the rest of his friends went to a party), and maybe even considered going, and I think that definitely shows some interest in her not only as an object, but as someone whose feelings would be hurt.

And I think for the whole first half of the series, I think Rayanne summed it up almost perfectly, in one of those classic MSCL moments:

Rayanne : I think part of him is partly interested in you. Definitely.
I mean, he's got other things on his mind...
Angela : But that's the part that's so unfair. I have nothing else on
my mind. How come I have to be the one sitting around
analyzing him in like microscopic detail, and he gets to be
the one with other things on his mind.
Rickie : ...That is deep.