MSCL.com

msclrules wrote:

grim4746 wrote:I agree with most of what you said but I think the answer to question #3 is
-not really and no (anglea didn't watch the tape)

if angela never actually saw the tape, how did she believe brian? what proof was there that made her believe that rayanne and jordan did it?

Rickie told her, and I guess just the way everybody acted,Rayanne avoiding her and stuff

Paulie 891 wrote:IMHO,this whole "Jordan slept with Rayanne thing" is blown out of proportion in a sense that some people assume that just because you slept with someone, you are immedietaly emotionally inolved.most of the time sex is just sex.

I disagree. Given the conversation that preceded Jordan and Rayanne's encounter and the facial expressions used, not to mention all the sighing, I'd say there were quite a few emotional factors that contributed to them having sex. I don't necessarily think Rayanne and Jordan are "emotionally involved" with each other but I wouldn't say their encounter was just sex for the sake of an orgasm either. I'm having difficulty pinpointing what emotions I think were involved as I find it hard to put myself in their shoes. But it seems like Jordan didn't want to give Angela the time and sense of security she needed before having sex so he decided to ignore her needs and would rather just get his needs met by her best friend after they have a heart to heart about Angela. Plus if it's true, as so many Jordan supporters have claimed, that Jordan actually means the sentiments expressed in the letter then perhaps he also means the crap about the "unconscious wish" which would mean that part of Jordan's motivation was to hurt Angela. Jordan does seem pretty charged up about the "unconcious wish" idea, possibly because he thinks it's just the sort of bull that girls go for but just maybe it's because he's found a way to express a bit of truth about a complicated situation.

grim4746 wrote:

Paulie 891 wrote:IMHO,this whole "Jordan slept with Rayanne thing" is blown out of proportion in a sense that some people assume that just because you slept with someone, you are immedietaly emotionally inolved.most of the time sex is just sex.

I disagree. Given the conversation that preceded Jordan and Rayanne's encounter and the facial expressions used, not to mention all the sighing, I'd say there were quite a few emotional factors that contributed to them having sex. I don't necessarily think Rayanne and Jordan are "emotionally involved" with each other but I wouldn't say their encounter was just sex for the sake of an orgasm either. I'm having difficulty pinpointing what emotions I think were involved as I find it hard to put myself in their shoes. But it seems like Jordan didn't want to give Angela the time and sense of security she needed before having sex so he decided to ignore her needs and would rather just get his needs met by her best friend after they have a heart to heart about Angela. Plus if it's true, as so many Jordan supporters have claimed, that Jordan actually means the sentiments expressed in the letter then perhaps he also means the crap about the "unconscious wish" which would mean that part of Jordan's motivation was to hurt Angela. Jordan does seem pretty charged up about the "unconcious wish" idea, possibly because he thinks it's just the sort of bull that girls go for but just maybe it's because he's found a way to express a bit of truth about a complicated situation.

Yes,what I meant by "emotional involvment" is that they weren't involved with each other, so I'm agreeing with you here.It's interesting what you said about the "uncounscious wish to punish her", because when you put it that way,Jordan appears to be a genuine SoB.

I know, I can't wait to see it! I never got to see it when it was actually showing!

Paulie 891 wrote:IMHO,this whole "Jordan slept with Rayanne thing" is blown out of proportion

Thank YOU!

grim4746 wrote:But it seems like Jordan didn't want to give Angela the time and sense of security she needed before having sex so he decided to ignore her needs and would rather just get his needs met by her best friend after they have a heart to heart about Angela.

I totally agree with this, but then, we've had this discussion many times before.

grim4746 wrote:Plus if it's true, as so many Jordan supporters have claimed, that Jordan actually means the sentiments expressed in the letter then perhaps he also means the crap about the "unconscious wish" which would mean that part of Jordan's motivation was to hurt Angela.

I do think that Jordan feels what the letter says, but I don't think he buys the "unconscious wish" part. I don't know, maybe that is a total contradictioon and I have to choose between him meaning both or meanig neither, since no real growth or any event of significance happens in betwen the two ... Damn ... no, I think for now I'm sticking to wish - no, letter - yes. But it is snomething to think about.

grim4746 wrote:but just maybe it's because he's found a way to express a bit of truth about a complicated situation.

I hear that.

Great analysis of the show! In reading all the comments I just thought that Jordan's feelings for Angela arrived before the Self Esteem Episode. The whole conversation Jordan has with Angela at the World Happiness Dance in "Life of Brian" was interesting. It's true that when he's looking at her from across the gym there is complete sex written all over his face. But him pushing her against the fence and asking "why are you like this." He's really trying to figure her out b/c she's a challenge and VERY different from all the other girls he's known.

IMHO

I really HATE that I missed this discussion...lots of great insights!

I believe that Jordan had already noticed Angela at school before Tino's party (they had a class together, after all) but she was, at least to Jordan, a younger girl in a lower grade (at least until he got held back, twice ) who hung out w/a different group than he did until that point...so not much in common for them to discuss until the next night when he sees her getting into the police car...I think he knew her name from the class, but again, had nothing to talk about w/her until he saw her getting hauled away...that gave him a new appreciation for her as someone who might be more his type after all, and she was w/Rayanne that night...which puts her closer to his circle b/c of the Rayanne/Tino connection...his little quip, "Out on bail?" was more than just an attempt at conversation...it was flirting, teasing, showing an interest

by the time of the apple machine conversation, he's interested in her, but just as any guy is interested in a pretty girl...who knows what they might be like together? but there's some sexual interest/curiosity...so he puts it to the test when he gives her the ID...what happened was he was clearly attracted, but she was not quite as much his type as he might have hoped...at least she was not an easy sexual conquest...but maybe that is just what sparked his further interest...like most guys, however, he couldn't resist trying the quick sex score once again by teasing her about just doing it since everyone is already saying they did...but again, he realizes she's "not like that" when he apologizes to her for suggesting it...he had to care about her feelings if he felt it was necessary to apologize

I think there is genuine interest when he approaches her at the museum and starts an inoccuous conversation about a tune that's stuck in his head & needing coffee...he just wants another chance to talk to her and it's clear she's willing, even though she pushed him off her in the car...and when he returns her letter to her, he's so chivalrous about it...he doesn't tease her, and he obviously has kept it between just him & her that he found it...and he tries to tell her that she doesn't need to be embarrased and make up stories about it (I cringe even remembering that part, sooo embarrassing!!!)

of course, what follows is singing her a song and the wonderful ride home w/a sweet goodnight kiss...all that had to have some real feelings involved beyond just sexual curiosity for Jordan to engage in all those behaviors...was he willing to go the distance yet? no way, but most guys aren't, even after things are "official"

heck, as Graham himself put it, most men he knows are still trying to figure out how to behave like men, lol!

I have gone on, sorry, but I really wish I'd been around to discuss this as the thread progressed...as you can tell, I LOVE this topic!

i think the discussion is still ongoing and i agree with you about jordan, although previous to getting arrested angela had not sparked an interest in him he would know who she was, everyone knows everyone at school.

Natasha (candygirl) wrote:She has such limited access to Jordan that she lies to Graham just so she can be at a party where she knows no one (except perhaps Rayanne, who we don't see in attendance) in hopes of glimpsing him.

Gotta correct you on this. We see Rayanne quickly with a bottle of liquor. She's got her hair up and this weird head jewelry thing on. Angela tries to make her way over to her and falls in the mud.

Natasha (candygirl) wrote:The things that we do see Tino follow through with are not significant - Chinese food at lunch, etc.

Didn't he also take them to the hospital to visit Sharon's dad? Rayanne suggested that he might, and we do know that Sharon and Rayanne went, so probably Tino did take them; which is more substantial than Chinese food and fake ID's, but yes, I too wonder about the nature of Tino's relationship with both Jordan and Rayanne, and how he is able to maintain a friendship with Jordan while also being friends with Rayanne. I'd hate to think that the friendship is one-sided and that Rayanne (although aware that he is unreliable) counts Tino as an actual friend, while Tino considers Rayanne something like a pet monkey -- amusing but generally insignificant.

KrokRos wrote:I see it because first of all he tries to kiss her twice, and I think it's because he doesn't really know what to do and she's there and he kind of impulsively just take a chance, well, actually two chances.

I'm not sure that Jordan ever considered that he'd be taking a chance in trying to kiss her, I'm pretty sure he assumed that it would be reciprocated, hence the second attempt, thinking that he had only been rebuffed because she was talking, and the frustrated "this whole day has been one long thing" when turned down the second time.

tigerlilly711 wrote:Personally I think he reciprocates feelings for her ... A moment I really thought showed how much he cared for her was when she hugged him underneath the bleachers in Strangers in the House. He looked so caring...you knew there was something there.

I have always seen that hug as more something he knew was expected from him than something he genuinely felt urged to do. I kind of always cringe at that scene (one of many in the series) because to me it seems like Angela is pushing their relationship too quickly -- forcing a level of intimacy that does not organically exist yet. (I understand why she goes to him -- she's feeling alienated from her other friends, and she feels an emotional pull towards Jordan), but I wouldn't blame Jordan for thinking it inappropriate of her (although he himself has a history of sharing uninvited personal information with relative strangers). I give restrained props to Jordan for even recognizing that Angela needed a hug at that moment, and completely agree with Candygirl and others about Jordan's abrupt departure with Shane, but I have never viewed that scene under the bleachers as anything more than Jordan's relative ability to read social cues, rather than his developing feelings for Angela. I could be wrong though. I do agree that he feels some kind of tie to her at this moment, but it's still just the beginning of something.

grim4746 wrote:Plus if it's true, as so many Jordan supporters have claimed, that Jordan actually means the sentiments expressed in the letter then perhaps he also means the crap about the "unconscious wish" which would mean that part of Jordan's motivation was to hurt Angela. Jordan does seem pretty charged up about the "unconcious wish" idea, possibly because he thinks it's just the sort of bull that girls go for ...

Sorry, I'm having a good time rereading these old posts.

* (Moderators: Thank you for editing these together ... I was cooking during the time I was posting, and only had small windows of time in which to type)