Thanks for reading and responding to my post, Jody Barsch.
Let me continue the discussion by responding to a few of your points.
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Jody Barsch wrote:First, I don’t believe that before the series began Brian and Angela were close at all. In their childhoods yes, but not recently, not freshman year, not junior high, probably not even 6th grade.
If I understand correctly what you mean by "close," then I completely agree. Angela and Brian were
childhood friends. When they both hit adolesence, it probably became awkward for them to be spending time together, and therefore, for the past few years, they have probably only seen each other as often as they do in the series. This having been said, let me try to justify what I said about Brian "knowing" Angela.
First, I assume Brian has been finding lame excusses to stop by the Chase house since well before the series began. I think if there had been a period of years before the series during which Brian and Angela had essentially zero contact outside of school, then it would have been too awkward for someone like Brian to suddenly
start showing up at her house. The first time we see Brian at Angela's house, Patty's reaction when she sees him there is:
Patty[entering the room]: Hi, Brian. Angela. Brian's here.
which indicates that this is nothing out of the ordinary. We know that brian loans her things (an atlas, Malcom X), and that at some point he explained
The Bicycle Thief to her. We see that they are lab partners in Biology in
Dancing in the Dark, and they would have been in year book together for some period of time (probably all of freshman year at least) prior to the beginning of the series. So I would argue that they have been in contact with one another on a fairly regular basis during their adolescent years (though I agree not really as "friends" in the usual sence of the word), but more importantly, Brian doesn't have to talk to Angela to find out about her, he watches her. He is the year book photographer so he has an excuse to essentially stand around watching people. In the pilot, we see that he has guessed that Angela likes Jordan Catalano without having been told, so he clearly is capable of learning about her by observation. It's also worth noting how many classes they have together, social studies, english, and biology at least.
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Jody Barsch wrote:They weren’t hanging out, they weren’t confiding in each other, they weren’t a real part of each other’s lives.
I agree that they wern't "hanging out" per se, but I would argue that they do indeed confide in each other from time to time. They certainly don't think of each other as "confidants" but they trust each other as a result of having grown up together and having spent so much time together as little kids. Plus, in
Dancing in the Dark Angela refers to Brian as "reassuring" which is really pretty ambiguous I admit but I assume at least that it's meant as a favorable characterization. And I think the most important point is that she is always willing to discuss private matters with him that she won't even talk to her family about. I will list a few examples:
From the Pilot:
Brian: So, what happened? Right, like you're not gonna tell me what
happened. Chase?
[they start walking down the sidewalk]
Angela: These guys started hitting on us.
From
Father FiguresBrian : How come you can't go home?
Angela : My dad thinks I'm at a Grateful Dead concert, and he'd
be really upset if he knew I wasn't.
From
Why Jordan Can't Read:Brian : Hi. You just look like you're going to a costume party as someone
else.
Danielle: So, where are we gonna have it? The lesson?
Angela : Look, if you must know, Jordan Catalano is coming over, so-
Brian : What?
Angela : Yeah, shut up! Why is that so amazing? I'm sorry if you
disapprove.
From
Pressure:Brian : Well, don't just *take it*. Yell back at me. [pause] I mean did
something -- I mean obviously something, something happened.
Angela : Nothing happened to me personally, I just -- I guess just kind of
*sad*, that's all. About boys.
Brian : Well, what about boys?
Angela : Just how they only care about -- you know, getting you into bed, or
something. [Graham, listening, slumps down further in the couch] I
mean, don't they?
Brian : Not all boys. So is that -- is that like a problem you're having?
Angela : Mm-hm. I mean, I think about it. All the time --
Brian : What, you think about it all the time?
Angela : Brian! Yeah, shut up! Boys don't have the monopoly on thinking
about it!
Brian : They don't?
Angela : No!
Brian : Okay, well. I still want my bike back.
From
So-Called Angels:Brian : So -- what was wrong with Rickie?
Angela : Excuse me, but why are you here?
Brian : Excuse me, your dad asked me to help. With the tree. So --
seriously -- is - is Rickie okay?
Angela : If I tell you, will you promise not to blab it to everyone?
Brian : Yes.
Angela : [her voice can be heard in the kitchen] See, he never spelled it
out, but I think his parent,s like, beat him up, or something.
Because -- for some reason, he's scared to go home.
Graham : Oh, my God.
Angela : And you will not believe where he's been sleeping. See, there's
this place. This -- big abandoned warehouse. Brian -- it's so scary
and so strange. All these kids, just like -- live there.
Brian : What kids?
Angela : *Kids*, Brian. There are kids who, like, have nowhere to live.
Don't you know that?
Brian : What, you go to like one abandoned warehouse, and suddenly you're
this like expert on homeless people?
Angela : Shut up. It's just that -- they're like -- normal. They're like
us. Like there's this one girl. And when you're talking to her,
it's -- it's like you forget that -- you know -- that there's any
difference between you.
Brian : Is this that place on Roscoe by the bowling alley?
Angela : No, it's on Tennessee Avenue.
From
In Dreams Begin Responsibilities:Brian : Hey.
Angela : Oh hi.
Brian : What are you reading?
Angela : Have you ever just, like, completely given up on someone, and then
something happens, and you go, "Oh my God. There's so much more to
this person than I ever dreamed!"
BusDude : [shoves Brian] Hey, keep it movin'.
[off the bus]
Brian : So, you got this letter from Jordan Catalano.
Angela : It's not just this letter. It's, like, the most incredible letter
I've ever gotten. Ever. Boy, you must have really worked hard.
[you don't know the half of it, sister] I mean, tutoring him. I
mean, I really, I should thank you. It's obviously made a real
difference.
Since this trend was present throughout the entire series, I see no reason not to assume that it has existed throughout their adolescent years. That is, it didn't
start at any particular point during the series therefore we might as well assume it has been going on for a while.
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Jody Barsch wrote:at the point where the show begins, it really is a case of Brian’s version of Angela Chase, and we know this because Angela is entirely unwilling to speak with Brian, to have any kind of real conversation with him,
If you're refering to her attitude in the Pilot when we first see them together, I think she didn't want to speak to him at that moment because she was getting ready to do something she knew he would disapprove of and she didn't feel like getting chastised by him after she had just been raked over the hot coals by her parents, and was consequently in a bad mood. Nevertheless, we see that she still talks to him rather than simply insisting that he go away, and she is even willing to admit to him that she is going to Let's Bolt.
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Jody Barsch wrote:I don’t see any evidence that Brian ever knows Angela better than she knows herself (but honestly, I don’t think I believe that ever really happens – it is such an expansive “thing” to know one’s self, and we are with ourselves nearly 24/7, how can somebody without our selves – without privilege to our experiences and emotions ever know us better than we know our self?)
Yea, I concede this point. I was just trying to make the point that she seems to be in an identity crisis when we first meet her and hence doesn't "know" herself very well. But that doesn't mean Brian could "know" her any better.
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Jody Barsch wrote:In his second point, Arch Geek talks about Jordan not being willing or able to be with Angela for more than just sex, and that he does not enjoy talking with her … While this was true in the earlier episodes, I believe that the later episodes in the series certainly make all of that a mute point.
I found that the conversations they had seemed basically vacuous and perfunctory, even when she specifically said they were meaningful. Let me give an example:
From
Self Esteem:Angela : We barely talked, and when we did, it came out sounding really
meaningful. [to Jordan] There's a tiny leaf in your hair.
Jordan : Where?
Jordan : But is that your stomach or my stomach? [They both look down]
Angela : Your cuticles look like little moons.
Jordan : My what?
Angela : Your cuticles.
I think she just
Wants to believe that these were meaningful exchanges because she doesn't want to admit to herself that Jordan is never going to be interested in having meaningful, intellectual conversations with her, and that in fact, he is only interested in making out and having sex. Another example of this is that she thought Jordan would understand
The Bicycle Theif. Judging from the fact that he asked Brian whether Kafka's Metamorphosis was "made up" in
The Zit , I think it's safe to say she was probably wrong about that. So I think that supports the assertion that Angela wants to believe Jordan is compatible with her, and thus allows wishful thinking to cloud her judgement.
It's worth pointing out here that, on the other hand, both Brian and Angela actually enjoy analyzing literature/film and have discussed it in the past.
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Jody Barsch wrote:It is, indeed, a truth that we sometimes entertain feelings for someone – feelings we never had for them before – after being told how the other person feels – the flattery, the unexplored possibilities, the thrill – wheels start turning in your mind, and sometimes takes you to very unexpected places.
I agree, this is very true, and very well stated. I think this effect may even account for the Jordan's attraction to Angela in the first place. However, I think relationships kindled in this fashion can only last if the participants are compatible with one another.