Why was the risk placed on the Consumer?

[andrewgd]

This has been bugging me for a while. Why, in this DVD project, was the risk of production placed on the customer? This should have never been allowed. Was the DVD production even a sure thing when Ross & Co. started billing customers? If not, he was taking the financial risk and placing it on the customer. Without the customers even knowing (if I'm correct).

You don't see Marvel trying out a new line of comics, and collecting the money for it first, even before they know that the line will be produced. They take the risk, and produce the line, and hope that it does well.

It seems to me to be bad practice to place all the risk on customers, and not on the company. Why wasn't it made sure that the company could take the risk (when its obvious they couldn't)?

[Jason R]

Been bugging me a while too. Here's the overall deal.

Originally, the plan was for AU.com to take a $20 deposit, and then they were going to have a DVD manufactured for each deposit. A deposit would not have been unreasonable, if not handled by a crook like Ross Rojek.

However, Ross misrepresented his financial situation. He didn't have the funds, and --if you will recall -- the charges just started "happening" for the full amount, without permission from the customer.

At the time, I spoke with Mike McCullough who sort of tried to put the blame off on their "accounting department" (read: Leslie Balko). He said they just started taking the charges without permission.

Ross told me he had a greenlight from BMG to take the deposits. In reality, they had not even cleared the project. They were telling BMG that they couldn't pay them because they hadn't collected the money yet, meanwhile they had the money for months.

I feel personally responsible for leading people to this "trap," and that is why I have been hounding AU.com for refunds and talking to any legal authorities who will hear me.

Jason

This has been bugging me for a while. Why, in this DVD project, was the risk of production placed on the customer? This should have never been allowed. Was the DVD production even a sure thing when Ross & Co. started billing customers? If not, he was taking the financial risk and placing it on the customer. Without the customers even knowing (if I'm correct).

You don't see Marvel trying out a new line of comics, and collecting the money for it first, even before they know that the line will be produced. They take the risk, and produce the line, and hope that it does well.

It seems to me to be bad practice to place all the risk on customers, and not on the company. Why wasn't it made sure that the company could take the risk (when its obvious they couldn't)?

[MartinPierre]

What I do not understand, it why the autorities have not reacted sooner.

In Canada, it works like this :

1 - You call the police
2 - they investigate
3 - They press charges and arrest you ( or cite you to come )
4 - within 24 hours you plead not guilty in front of a jugde
5 - 1-2 years later, you have a trial

We did 1.

2 has been going on for months. Is the US a third world country where the police is completly unable to investigate a credit card fraud ?

Did anyone bothered to call the secret service ? ( I mean from the various people we called )

I mean, what the hell is going one ? Why wasn't this guy indited(sp?) yet.
Your police system is a farce...

You have around 10 different agencies fighting for juridiction.

In Québec, you have the local police, which is responsible for almost every crime in their city. And they usually cooperate with each other fairly well.

If a crime is done by a police officer, or if a police officier fired a gun,or if a city is too small to have a municipal police or if there is a big investigation the provincial police will take care of it.

But it is usually a good collaboration between the two levels.

As for the RCMP, they do not have juridiction per se in provinces where there is a provincial police, other then to protect diplomats and federal property.

There is no Secret Service (RCMP does it ), no highway patrol ( SQ does it ), no other tiny departement.

You press charges at your local police, and they will transfert the case to the SQ if needed.

Your system is a parody of a police system.

[moviezzz]

Has anyone notified the police in the city where AU is located?

Just a call to say "This company has overbilled customers X amount and are refusing to refund it in a timely manner". If for no other reason than to get a local file going.

The FBI and Internet Fraud Bureaus may have too much going on to really concentrate on the case. But you can send a couple local detectives to go down there and knock on the door and tell them to hurry it up, that could speed it up a bit.

[fnordboy]

has been going on for months. Is the US a third world country where the police is completly unable to investigate a credit card fraud ?

....

I mean, what the hell is going one ? Why wasn't this guy indited(sp?) yet.
Your police system is a farce...
...

Your system is a parody of a police system.

That is the absolute truth. The problem with the police and most government agencies is that they are not actually for the "little guy" as much as they like to claim they are. When it comes down to it how much did ROss actually steal by now? A couple tens of thousands? Really that is nothing to them. To me and you and everyone else on this board it is a goddamn lot of money. When it comes to scams and business related problems like this they never do much unless it is A. high profile or B. you are kicking them (ie the jurisdiction) something nice and fat in return.

[lance]

What I do not understand, it why the autorities have not reacted sooner.

In Canada, it works like this :

1 - You call the police
2 - they investigate
3 - They press charges and arrest you ( or cite you to come )
4 - within 24 hours you plead not guilty in front of a jugde
5 - 1-2 years later, you have a trial

We did 1.

2 has been going on for months. Is the US a third world country where the police is completly unable to investigate a credit card fraud ?

Did anyone bothered to call the secret service ? ( I mean from the various people we called )

I mean, what the hell is going one ? Why wasn't this guy indited(sp?) yet.
Your police system is a farce...

You have around 10 different agencies fighting for juridiction.

In Québec, you have the local police, which is responsible for almost every crime in their city. And they usually cooperate with each other fairly well.

If a crime is done by a police officer, or if a police officier fired a gun,or if a city is too small to have a municipal police or if there is a big investigation the provincial police will take care of it.

But it is usually a good collaboration between the two levels.

As for the RCMP, they do not have juridiction per se in provinces where there is a provincial police, other then to protect diplomats and federal property.

There is no Secret Service (RCMP does it ), no highway patrol ( SQ does it ), no other tiny departement.

You press charges at your local police, and they will transfert the case to the SQ if needed.

Your system is a parody of a police system.

Martin,

Thanks for the lesson on Canadian police efforcement. Learn something new every day.

Best,

Lance Man

[phelix]

This has been bugging me for a while. Why, in this DVD project, was the risk of production placed on the customer?

I'd like to point out that this was not the case. Customers were asked to risk $20 in a deposit, a not-too-unreasonable request given the nature of this project. This is the only risk we accepted. The rest of the money was <b>STOLEN</b> out of our accounts. Let's not forget that.

Also, I should point out that even this $20 desposit was not at risk, since nowhere was it stated that this deposit was nonrefundable.

[andrewgd]

I'd like to point out that this was not the case.

In theory, it was not the case. But in practice, the risk was most definitely placed on the consumer. We had no idea that this project would not go anywhere without us paying the full amount. That is the actuality of it.

[Jason R]

Nobody knew that was going to happen. I didn't know it, BMG didn't know it. I'd argue that the argument is mostly moot.

Why?

Because even WITH the money (oftentimes twice the money), AU.com was not able to get it's s--t together. Even for people they did not overcharge, AU still charged nearly 2x as much as other vendors.

No, this is a totally different situation. AU.com did not even use the money that they collected to pay for the product. Ross had to go begging for money in the days prior to the October 16 deadline (imposed by customers on this forum) in order to be able to pay BMG.

I'd like to point out that this was not the case.

In theory, it was not the case. But in practice, the risk was most definitely placed on the consumer. We had no idea that this project would not go anywhere without us paying the full amount. That is the actuality of it.

[andrewgd]

Nobody knew that was going to happen. I didn't know it, BMG didn't know it. I'd argue that the argument is mostly moot.

Yeah, I realise that. We all know we can talk until we're blue in the face about how horrible Ross is. It was just something I had been thinking about. Nobody knew how badly he was going to screw everyone, except for him and his cronies.

I do appreciate you sticking with this. It helps to have a sort of focus to bounce suggestions and get some sort of feedback from. I think everyone would have given up hope of getting what was owed if it wasn't for you. Thanks.

[Jason R]

As "the guy who (unwittingly) played Pied Piper," I am deeply offended by Ross Rojek's actions. It was a double blow for me. Not only did I market a product for this jerk, but he also cheated me out of my livelihood for about 9 months.

Ironically, the product I brought to market ended up becoming BMG Special Products' biggest DVD product ever. Such is life. You move on.

However, I can't just move on from everything. Having been screwed by online sites before, I promised myself that I would never be a party to any such activities. Ross knows that I will hound him until every last penny is refunded to customers. If he doesn't do this, he should be locked up.

As an aside, I was invited by Spartacus (of AnotherUniverseSUCKS.org) to attend this year's Comic Convention in San Diego (July 17-20) and hand out anti-AU.com propaganda with them (being done by a comic artist who got dicked by Ross). If you are in the area, let me know and we can try to be there on the same day.

Jason

[starbug]

Jason,

A while ago we were hearing that the law enforcement types were getting themselves in gear. I can't recall exactly what was said or by who, but I think it was you saying that you'd been talking to them and they were ramping it up a little.

Could you let us know what is going on? I submitted a complaint to the IFCC months ago (referencing your complaint and directing them to this forum) yet have heard nothing - I am wondering if this is because I'm not a US citizen, or whether this whole law enforcement attempt is at a massive stall stage.

Thanks

[Jason R]

Haven't heard a thing. I'd have to say that I agree with other assessments of our legal system. If you want to con your customers, it seems like the good ol' USA is the place to do it.

[so-called customer]

Sorry Martin Pierre, but that's not the way things work in Canada. I called the RCMP and told them the story. They basically said it's too bad, but there are millions of internet scams going on, and 99 per cent of them will never get investigated. They wouldn't even take my name.

I hate to sound smug, but anyone who hasn't gone to their credit card company to resolve this is pretty much SOL. There will be no bonus materials. If you are still hung out to dry, consider it a lesson. When these discs were starting to ship there was ample warning here to abandon ship, but people kept holding out hope that Ross would deliver. He can't and won't. The writing was on the wall long ago. That's pretty much all there is to it.

[fnordboy]

When these discs were starting to ship there was ample warning here to abandon ship, but people kept holding out hope that Ross would deliver. He can't and won't. The writing was on the wall long ago. That's pretty much all there is to it.

The problem with abandoning ship then was if you were lucky you would get your money back. The other options were A- Cancel your order and hope that you get a refund and buy the product elsewhere B- Cancel your order and never get a refund and buy product elsewhere, essentially costing you another 50+ dollars. And that is if they even cancelled your order, quite a few people here ended up with two sets because they shipped to you regardless.

Like a few others on this board who don't use credit cards I used a debit card and was unable to get any backing from my bank. I had no other choice but to hold out for the product and see if I can get my money bank from one of my overcharges (still waiting). Some people couldn't cancel because their credit card company wasn't giving them much backing since the original charge was so long ago.

By that point we all knew we were screwed, some of us chose to go along for the ride at that point and atleast get something from the money he stole from all of us rather than calling it quits and hoping either he or our banks would give us a refund.