Want to check video quality? Take a look at this!!

This forum is for questions/discussions about the now sold out first DVD box set by BMG / AnotherUniverse.
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SanDeE*
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Post by SanDeE* » Nov 20th 2002, 10:49 am

I don't have my set yet (are arriving from amazon today), but I think the thing I will be disappointed the most with is the art layout. I've read logical reasons as to why the picture isn't as crisp and clear, why there are little lines, and so forth. It seems like, no matter who made them or where they were made or when they were made, those picture issues would be there. So, since there's nothing that could have helped that, I'm okay with it. But the art (from what I've seen in pictures here) looks pretty amateur and hastily put together. There was plenty of time for better artwork layout. I agree with what everyone says about that. BUT (and this is a big but)..... it's okay. Nothing's perfect. And I am very grateful for the work Jason has put in, as well as many others. Did BMG do the artwork layout?

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Post by Jason R » Nov 20th 2002, 11:05 am

I think the artwork is lame. I posted this on HTF back in July when I first saw it. Interesting that some who don't like the video quality like the packaging.

It is my understanding that BMG did not want to clear any new artwork, so they just reused the same photo over and over. I had posted about this back in July on Home Theater Forum.

Also, each case is individually shrinkwrapped. This was because BMG did not have faith in the box set. They figured that if it did not sell, it could be broken down into individual discs.

The irony? It is the top-selling DVD ever from BMG Special Products.

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Post by DoubleBilled » Nov 20th 2002, 8:29 pm

pinkchimney wrote:Actually, people haven't responded because they don't want to come off as ungrateful to the people who put alot of work into it like Jason. But I def agree that there are some errors in the production of these disks.

-+= A N D =+-

I am simply upset for having paid so much and waited so long for something that seems like it was just slapped together.
I am glad people have different opinions about this. There is no doubt that the show itself is great. But whoever produced these DVD's did not do the show justice by just slapping them together. My "24" box set seemed kinda put together quickly, and still the box, dvd's, packaging and most importantly, the picture quality came out great.

Well you responded, and I thank you. But do you feel "ungrateful"? I'd bet not. There is no harm in pointing out what you are dissatisfied with as a paying customer. Maybe it will help BMG Special Products make a product that exeeds our expectations next time.

Jason said that BMG didn't want to clear more artwork. It seems that BMG didn't want to do alot of things, and here we sit with the discs that were given to us, such as they are.

The point I'm trying to make with this thread by pointing out the 'shadow lines' is basically to dispell the notion that these DVD's were made from the available resources, such as they are, and nothing could be done about video quality unless they went to the original film elements. Well I say "BS". because I can assure you that these 'shadow lines' are NOT on the source. They weren't on TV, they aren't on my tape from the MTV marathon, but they are on my DVD.

Logic suggests that these lines were added in the DVD process. I hope that someone will explain as to why, and if possible, never do it again. You never know what BMG Special Products might push out next, and I might want it.


db

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Post by Jason R » Nov 20th 2002, 8:55 pm

I did speak with AIX today (about another project), and I confirmed that the Macrovision was not on my check disc. So, I don't know if that is what you are seeing. I will have to buy a copy and check.
DoubleBilled wrote:
pinkchimney wrote:Actually, people haven't responded because they don't want to come off as ungrateful to the people who put alot of work into it like Jason. But I def agree that there are some errors in the production of these disks.

-+= A N D =+-

I am simply upset for having paid so much and waited so long for something that seems like it was just slapped together.
I am glad people have different opinions about this. There is no doubt that the show itself is great. But whoever produced these DVD's did not do the show justice by just slapping them together. My "24" box set seemed kinda put together quickly, and still the box, dvd's, packaging and most importantly, the picture quality came out great.

Well you responded, and I thank you. But do you feel "ungrateful"? I'd bet not. There is no harm in pointing out what you are dissatisfied with as a paying customer. Maybe it will help BMG Special Products make a product that exeeds our expectations next time.

Jason said that BMG didn't want to clear more artwork. It seems that BMG didn't want to do alot of things, and here we sit with the discs that were given to us, such as they are.

The point I'm trying to make with this thread by pointing out the 'shadow lines' is basically to dispell the notion that these DVD's were made from the available resources, such as they are, and nothing could be done about video quality unless they went to the original film elements. Well I say "BS". because I can assure you that these 'shadow lines' are NOT on the source. They weren't on TV, they aren't on my tape from the MTV marathon, but they are on my DVD.

Logic suggests that these lines were added in the DVD process. I hope that someone will explain as to why, and if possible, never do it again. You never know what BMG Special Products might push out next, and I might want it.


db

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Post by phelix » Nov 20th 2002, 9:25 pm

DoubleBilled wrote:
Logic suggests that these lines were added in the DVD process. I hope that someone will explain as to why, and if possible, never do it again. You never know what BMG Special Products might push out next, and I might want it.

db
I don't have the discs yet, so take my statement for what it's worth.

There is another more likely explaination; the master tape itself has degraded.

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Post by Mold E. Peaches » Nov 20th 2002, 11:37 pm

DoubleBilled wrote:
pinkchimney wrote:Actually, people haven't responded because they don't want to come off as ungrateful to the people who put alot of work into it like Jason. But I def agree that there are some errors in the production of these disks.

-+= A N D =+-

I am simply upset for having paid so much and waited so long for something that seems like it was just slapped together.
I am glad people have different opinions about this. There is no doubt that the show itself is great. But whoever produced these DVD's did not do the show justice by just slapping them together. My "24" box set seemed kinda put together quickly, and still the box, dvd's, packaging and most importantly, the picture quality came out great.


Well you responded, and I thank you. But do you feel "ungrateful"? I'd bet not. There is no harm in pointing out what you are dissatisfied with as a paying customer. Maybe it will help BMG Special Products make a product that exeeds our expectations next time.

Jason said that BMG didn't want to clear more artwork. It seems that BMG didn't want to do alot of things, and here we sit with the discs that were given to us, such as they are.

The point I'm trying to make with this thread by pointing out the 'shadow lines' is basically to dispell the notion that these DVD's were made from the available resources, such as they are, and nothing could be done about video quality unless they went to the original film elements. Well I say "BS". because I can assure you that these 'shadow lines' are NOT on the source. They weren't on TV, they aren't on my tape from the MTV marathon, but they are on my DVD.

Logic suggests that these lines were added in the DVD process. I hope that someone will explain as to why, and if possible, never do it again. You never know what BMG Special Products might push out next, and I might want it.


db
WILL YOU STOP GRIPING PLEASE......THROW THE SET AWAY IF YOU ARE THAT UNHAPPY WITH IT. END. OF. STORY.

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Post by hollis27 » Nov 21st 2002, 12:43 am

As someone who doesn't have the boxset yet, this is quite interesting. I'm glad I'm finding these things out beforehand, so I'm not too dissapointed when I rip open the package. Thanks for posting.

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Post by SanDeE* » Nov 21st 2002, 3:38 am

I got my discs today. I was worried from all the talk in these threads that there would be these really horribly noticable white lines during most of the scenes. I watched the entire first disc today, and you know what? I did notice the lines, but they were so miniscule and slight that if I hadn't learned about their presence here in the forum, I never would have noticed them. I watched the disc on my 19" Samsung TV with my brand new (5 mos old) Toshiba DVD player. I have not watched them on my Sony laptop yet, though.

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Post by Nostradamus » Nov 21st 2002, 6:21 am

Kristin wrote:I got my discs today. I was worried from all the talk in these threads that there would be these really horribly noticable white lines during most of the scenes. I watched the entire first disc today, and you know what? I did notice the lines, but they were so miniscule and slight that if I hadn't learned about their presence here in the forum, I never would have noticed them. I watched the disc on my 19" Samsung TV with my brand new (5 mos old) Toshiba DVD player. I have not watched them on my Sony laptop yet, though.
Ditto. Upon close examination I was able to spot the various picture flaws mentioned here on my PC monitor, but on the whole I found them about as annoying as the squiggly little pieces of film lint that dance around the screen at the movie theatre. Maybe it looks worse on other systems or maybe some of the discs were defective... I guess what I'm trying to say, for those of you who don't yet have your set, is that some of you may think it is flawless, some of you may think it is horrible, and most of you will find it to be somewhere in between. :?
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Post by DoubleBilled » Nov 21st 2002, 9:05 pm

Fetus if you have nothing to add in relation to the title of the thread please don't post.

If you must keep crying about me, please start your own thread. Title it "Why must DoubleBilled be upset about getting an inferior product" or something like that. :idea:

db

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Post by foolishoptimist » Nov 22nd 2002, 6:41 am

I don't have the set yet, so I can't claim to be %100 sure, but these lines, don't sound at all like anything that could have happened to the master tape. This definitely sounds like a glitch somewhere in it's transfer to a digital source, or it's compression into DVD's MPEG4 format. If you've ever seen a glitch on a DV tape, or on a MPEG movie file, it will look somewhat like what has been described.

I actually have the entire show on tape already, and still in good shape. There's nothing that would make me give up this set. Not any amount of being screwed by AU. But DoubleBilled is completely within his right to be upset. We've all bought the right to, by paying more than we would pay for any regular decent quality TV season box.
This definitely seems to be the ONLY time this set will ever be released, ie. this was our ONLY shot to get the set both the show and we deserved.
Whenever a DVD is produced, a certain amount of work goes into making the picture as good as it can be. I'm pissed off, and dissapointed that it seems NO work went into guaranteeing the picture quality of this set. It's an insult to the show, but even more to us, as we were the reason it was getting made, not AU.
But our shot is past now. Despite the now evident popularity, this set will probably not get produced again(at least not for a long long time).

No amount of picture glitches would make me give up this set, because it's all there is. There's no better option out there. Even if more get printed, they'll just be copies of what we've got now.

We deserve better.
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sticking it out

Post by smackey » Nov 22nd 2002, 9:29 am

Thanks for the (mostly) positive encouragement to hang in there with the DVD order. I agree wholeheartedly about the VHS deterioration factor... I'm in the process of converting my family VHS home movies to DVD for that very reason. (I've considered just converting my VHS MSCL tapes as well, but I'm sure this box set will surpass that in quality--*crosses fingers*) I guess my doubts came from being worried/pissed about the fact that we are, as foolishoptimist just mentioned, paying an above average price for what is reportedly a below average result. But this is our one chance, apparently... and ultimately I'm glad the show is finally on DVD.

The good news is that my set reportedly shipped yesterday! I feel much better that I'm paying less than $50, as opposed to the $100 through AU. Hopefully I'll be oblivious to many of the quality issues mentioned in this thread as I watch. :roll:

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Post by andrewgd » Nov 23rd 2002, 3:25 am

This is captured with PowerDVD. The drive is a Toshiba DVDrom SD-m1202. I haven't really watched any of the disks yet (I've yet to post in the "I'VE GOT MINE!" section either...) Basically I'm posting these so people can see what everyone is talking about. I don't think it'll be a problem for me, personally, but I definitely understand the frustration.

EDIT: I've taken the images down for bandwidth/privacy issues. If someone wants to host them, PM me and I'll send them so you can put them up.

Of course, the contrast setting on the display (tv or monitor) will make the banding better or worse, depending on the setting.

The Macrovision (if that is what the top row is) isn't going to be seen on most cathode ray TV's. Most "normal" TVs don't display the edges of the picture signal. But if you're viewing it on a flatscreen, or on a computer, they'll be visible, because those devices show the full frame. But on those devices, it could be very annoying, because the white sections swim back and forth across the top row of pixels constantly.

I hope this helps people explain their point. (And keep people from thinking they are crazy :wink: )
Last edited by andrewgd on Nov 27th 2002, 1:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by phelix » Nov 23rd 2002, 4:38 am

andrewgd wrote: Of course, the contrast setting on the display (tv or monitor) will make the banding better or worse, depending on the setting.

The Macrovision (if that is what the top row is) isn't going to be seen on most cathode ray TV's. Most "normal" TVs don't display the edges of the picture signal. But if you're viewing it on a flatscreen, or on a computer, they'll be visible, because those devices show the full frame. But on those devices, it could be very annoying, because the white sections swim back and forth across the top row of pixels constantly.

I hope this helps people explain their point. (And keep people from thinking they are crazy :wink: )
THank you for posting. First, the top part I'm not sure if it's macrovision. It could be closed captions or some kind of timecode or something. Look at this site to see what macrovision is. The left side is similar to macrovision, buth the right side is something different. The telltale sign is how quickly that line changes. If it's changing shape every few frames, then it's closed captioning. IF instead, it's brightness fades in and out every few seconds, then it's macrovision. It's hard to tell from a single frame.

I for one, am completely shocked that they would have that eoncoded like that. Macrovision, Closed captions, etc. all live in the vertical blanking interval. You don't encode the VBI stuff in the main image area; in fact you usually don't encode that as video at all. I've been doing video captures for a while now and I have NEVER seen closed captioning show up like that. NONE of the DVDs I have which have closed captioning show up like that. This is unbelievably sloppy work.

Now onto the banding. I retract my theory about it being dropouts; dropouts are solid pure white lines and this is definately not that. However, I disagree that it is an artifact of MPEG encoding. It is most likely either on the master tape or it's a problem with the tape->computer video capturing process. It's definately an "analog" problem.

This image also shows typical mpeg blocking artificats. If you further increase the brightnesss, you can easily make out small green blocks in the bed baseboard. The image is also lacking in sharpness, a consequence of the source being videotape.

All in all, the image is not much better than I would get for a good capture from my satellite dish. I now understand doublebilled's frustration, and partly share it. However, I knew this would be a low-budget effort whereas his expectations were probably higher. At $45, it's definately worth it to buy rather than capture,edit, and encode 19 hours of video. Unfortunately, this is as good as it will ever get.

BTW, macrovision is something BMG has to pay a royalty on. If they think they didn't use macrovision but in fact did, somebody is in deep doo-doo.

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Post by DoubleBilled » Nov 24th 2002, 1:24 am

OH MY GOD!!!

Thank you for posting that! Like I said earlier I wanted to do that but the damn disc won't even play in my drive. It hangs up during the opening credits. Same place, every time, every disc. I have since learned form some friends that this is not that uncommon. I don't watch many DVD's on the computer, so I haven't had the chance to run into this problem.

My TV is calibrated using the Avia test disc, even using the blue filter on the test signal and the whole 9, so if I do say so myself I have the means the view the image "correctly". Of course I could always turn the brightness and contrast down, and the MSCL discs would look better, but then the other 250 discs I have would look bad since they were made better.

I post this so people won't think "Well no wonder DoubleBilled sees this junk, his TV is all wonky." It's not. Maybe some of your tv's are too dark?

And so I feel vindicated. People can now see what the heck I am talking about. And you better believe I am saving those photos for future use on this site after Christmas.

db

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